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Post by perpetualn00b on Jan 18, 2012 5:13:15 GMT -5
And Ace's shortcomings as a human being have been well documented thus far, even on WWE TV. Hell, he even rubbed in John Morrison's "firing" for no reason but to be smug. His character is a complete tool and a phony. Punk's a jerk, sure, but he'll admit that. Ace puts on a fake facade. And he's a coward, which was proven on Monday with Foley. If he did that to Punk, that'd be one thing. But what did Foley do? Want a chance to wrestle in a 30-man match?. Oh, I agree with all this. It's at about the same level of repulsiveness as Punk's loudmouthedness. And, as I find their tit-for-tat contains none of the obvious escalation that cemented Vince as heel in his feud with Austin, I'd put the blame for this ongoing feud at the feet of it's originator, CM Punk (that's not to say I support that sort of thing, but as they both continue the cycle it's not a basis for one to be placed above the other).
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Post by machomuta on Jan 18, 2012 6:17:29 GMT -5
Also, I try to not use this word but he really does bury most of the people he faces with his dialogues. The creative team are the ones who are writing his stuff.
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Post by Wolf Hurricane on Jan 18, 2012 12:04:11 GMT -5
Ace's reaction was a classic "pussy tactic". Just sayin’. I'd take the pussy over the bully any day of the week, for my part. I think most guys would "take the pussy" anyday. But seriously, there is something wrong when you have some half or so of the people in this thread sympathetic for the heel and thinking the face is in the wrong. This is what happens when you don't have a serious heel. Right now, Mark Henry and Kane are the only two heels on the roster that can be taken completely seriously, with Ziggler hopefully getting there. Comparatively speaking, Johnny Ace is not threatening in any shape or form; he isn't physically imposing, nor is he all that powerful on the mic. He's a former pro-wrestler turned middle manager, who's sole responsibility is firing people, and yet it's hard to find him remotely intimidating. He isn't a big bad, a dragon, an evil genius, or anything like that; he's just some suck up in a suit that is impossible to find as a threat to anyone. What's hurting Punk isn't Punk or Ace; what's hurting him is he isn't feuding with a big bad. He's feuding with a geriatric brown-noser.
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Cronant
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Post by Cronant on Jan 18, 2012 12:26:54 GMT -5
His little comment to Vickie was why he needed the Ace Crusher. Nobody liked it when Lawler did it.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Jan 18, 2012 12:37:07 GMT -5
His little comment to Vickie was why he needed the Ace Crusher. Nobody liked it when Lawler did it. I was always fine with it, but then again I think people here are way too protective over a woman who's SUPPOSED to be a very unladylike, annoying heel.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jan 18, 2012 12:47:17 GMT -5
I'd take the pussy over the bully any day of the week, for my part. I think most guys would "take the pussy" anyday. But seriously, there is something wrong when you have some half or so of the people in this thread sympathetic for the heel and thinking the face is in the wrong. This is what happens when you don't have a serious heel. Right now, Mark Henry and Kane are the only two heels on the roster that can be taken completely seriously, with Ziggler hopefully getting there. Comparatively speaking, Johnny Ace is not threatening in any shape or form; he isn't physically imposing, nor is he all that powerful on the mic. He's a former pro-wrestler turned middle manager, who's sole responsibility is firing people, and yet it's hard to find him remotely intimidating. He isn't a big bad, a dragon, an evil genius, or anything like that; he's just some suck up in a suit that is impossible to find as a threat to anyone. What's hurting Punk isn't Punk or Ace; what's hurting him is he isn't feuding with a big bad. He's feuding with a geriatric brown-noser. It's almost coming off as if Punk is bitching because Ace doesn't worship him the way he's used to having people worship he ground he walks on. He's this close to affecting the "Don't you know who I am? I'm CM Punk! The internet loves me!" gimmick. Which is sad, because I think that right now, Daniel Bryan would benefit from that persona more.
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Post by Savage Gambino on Jan 18, 2012 13:05:39 GMT -5
Also, I try to not use this word but he really does bury most of the people he faces with his dialogues. The creative team are the ones who are writing his stuff. Not that it's just Punk, but I've always found it interesting that when someone's "on a roll" on the mic, so to speak, that it's attributed to their natural charisma and them coming up with their own material. On the other hand, when they deliver something that isn't as well received, it's suddenly all Creative, excuse me, UnCreative's fault. Not saying that WWE Creative doesn't have it's many, many faults, but to attribute all the hits to the Superstars only and all of the misses to Creative only isn't fair to either side.
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Post by AztecaDragon on Jan 18, 2012 13:14:17 GMT -5
I was always fine with it, but then again I think people here are way too protective over a woman who's SUPPOSED to be a very unladylike, annoying heel. Maybe if a lot of the insults hurled her way didn't have to do with her looks or her age...
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Jan 18, 2012 13:22:23 GMT -5
I was always fine with it, but then again I think people here are way too protective over a woman who's SUPPOSED to be a very unladylike, annoying heel. Maybe if a lot of the insults hurled her way didn't have to do with her looks or her age... Most of them seem to have to do with how irritating she is, which is her gimmick.
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Post by machomuta on Jan 18, 2012 13:28:21 GMT -5
The creative team are the ones who are writing his stuff. . , but to attribute all the hits to the Superstars only and all of the misses to Creative only isn't fair to either side. I dont do that. It is pretty common knowledge that WWE uses scripted promos.
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Post by AztecaDragon on Jan 18, 2012 13:29:03 GMT -5
Most of them seem to have to do with how irritating she is, which is her gimmick. So that's got nothing to do with how "unladylike" she is anymore? That's progress. It only took one post...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2012 13:35:23 GMT -5
People look more reasons to bitch over the weight thing. Like how people were rioting over Cena calling Tony Chimmel fat, yet completely ignored Barrett calling Ricardo such immediately beforehand.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Jan 18, 2012 13:37:10 GMT -5
Most of them seem to have to do with how irritating she is, which is her gimmick. So that's got nothing to do with how "unladylike" she is anymore? That's progress. It only took one post... "Unladylike" does not mean "unattractive". Really, aside from Lawler making a couple of dumb fat jokes (which I don't notice him do anymore), I've never heard anyone outright say she's ugly. She's intentionally an annoying, shrill woman. THAT'S HER CHARACTER. Between this and people claiming that Mr. Laurinaitis isn't a bad boss character, I honestly wonder at what point people stopped paying attention to their tv screens.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jan 18, 2012 13:39:42 GMT -5
Between this and people claiming that Mr. Laurinaitis isn't a bad boss character, I honestly wonder at what point people stopped paying attention to their tv screens. They didn't. They just like different things.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Jan 18, 2012 13:45:37 GMT -5
Between this and people claiming that Mr. Laurinaitis isn't a bad boss character, I honestly wonder at what point people stopped paying attention to their tv screens. They didn't. They just like different things. There's liking different things, and there's painting characters in a different light to what the creators are intending to suit their own opinion. You can't deny that an awful lot of the latter has happened in this thread.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2012 13:56:43 GMT -5
They didn't. They just like different things. There's liking different things, and there's painting characters in a different light to what the creators are intending to suit their own opinion. You can't deny that an awful lot of the latter has happened in this thread. That's the thing, though. In a book or movie or whatever, creator intent isn't relevant to how you can interpret a character or moral. Why should wrestling be any different? And really, I don't see any problems with being a kiss-up or a corporate stooge. Sometimes you do what you have to to get by, and sometimes the arrogant rebels trying to make things please them personally need to be put in their place.
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Post by AztecaDragon on Jan 18, 2012 13:58:14 GMT -5
"Unladylike" does not mean "unattractive". Really, aside from Lawler making a couple of dumb fat jokes (which I don't notice him do anymore), I've never heard anyone outright say she's ugly. She's intentionally an annoying, shrill woman. THAT'S HER CHARACTER. I know what her character is supposed to be. That's kinda why I'm leery of the whole thing. "Unladylike" not only means "unattractive," it means a whole bunch of other things that have been attributed to Vickie at one point or another. I'm not surprised she has the character she has, it's not like they'd go out of their way to seriously sexualize her into blandness like other divas. EDIT: You know, Wolf. I understand what you're saying. Though the funny thing is there's still a possible trope for Mr. Laryngitis: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NonActionBigBadAnd I think he'd be a much more effective villain if he WASN'T the type that CM Punk could just beat into submission or verbally eviscerate. In fact, I think CM Punk possibly laying his hands on him cheapens it.
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Post by Wolf Hurricane on Jan 18, 2012 14:21:36 GMT -5
"Unladylike" does not mean "unattractive". Really, aside from Lawler making a couple of dumb fat jokes (which I don't notice him do anymore), I've never heard anyone outright say she's ugly. She's intentionally an annoying, shrill woman. THAT'S HER CHARACTER. I know what her character is supposed to be. That's kinda why I'm leery of the whole thing. "Unladylike" not only means "unattractive," it means a whole bunch of other things that have been attributed to Vickie at one point or another. I'm not surprised she has the character she has, it's not like they'd go out of their way to seriously sexualize her into blandness like other divas. Honestly, I don't really mind people attacking Vickie for being shrill, or even for being unattractive; much like Luna and Sensational Sherri, I believe Vickie goes out of her way to seem as off-putting as possible, from the shrill voice to the constant scowling and twisting her face. The only problem I had with the weight comments was that they were coming from a cradle-robber who isn't all that physically fit himself and hasn't been since the 80's.
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jan 18, 2012 20:35:50 GMT -5
There's liking different things, and there's painting characters in a different light to what the creators are intending to suit their own opinion. You can't deny that an awful lot of the latter has happened in this thread. That's the thing, though. In a book or movie or whatever, creator intent isn't relevant to how you can interpret a character or moral. Why should wrestling be any different? And really, I don't see any problems with being a kiss-up or a corporate stooge. Sometimes you do what you have to to get by, and sometimes the arrogant rebels trying to make things please them personally need to be put in their place. As a writer myself, creative intent is how the story is SUPPOSED to be interpreted. People can LIKE the characters any which way they choose, but at the end of the day, the story is what it is and is meant to be taken that way. If you vehemently oppose a character who is supposed to be a hero, in all likelihood that character was simply written poorly. You cannot truly debate it, however, because it is not real. The creator has made the rules and fashioned the particular world as they see fit. They just might suck at it. But it still is the intention. It’s like a little kid who can’t draw. If my nephew hands me a hand-painting from Kindergarten and tells me it’s a fire-truck, and all I see is a blob, it’s still a fire-truck, because that was his intention. It’s just a shitty fire-truck, that’s all. That all said, thinking Ace is the "good guy" is just wrong, because he has in no way been presented as such, and is not WWE's intention. The dissenters argument should not stray from ‘CM Punk is an unlikeable Face’. That can at least be open to opinion. In no way is Ace relatable -- unless those who relate to him personally abuse their power and are bullies in real life, and justify said behavior as acceptable. And there IS a problem with being a kiss-up and corporate stooge, for the record. Because it lacks integrity. It means you've crushed or hurt people for personal gain. And that's NEVER a morally acceptable and justifiable act no matter what. To say it is would undo the very fabric of basic human decency. An act that steps on the innocent is ALWAYS wrong.
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Post by 01010010 01101001 01100011 on Jan 18, 2012 20:38:27 GMT -5
Between this and people claiming that Mr. Laurinaitis isn't a bad boss character, I honestly wonder at what point people stopped paying attention to their tv screens. They didn't. They just like different things. The problem is several people are outright ignoring things that have happened to hold on to the idea that Ace hasn't done anything to Punk to deserve his ire. It's happened and been pointed out as wrong several times in this thread alone.
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