SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
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I'm Necessary Evil.
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jan 17, 2012 23:37:29 GMT -5
I don't see how anyone thinks Johnny Ace looks sympathetic. The fake-out punch by Punk and Ace's reaction was a classic bully tactic. Just sayin'. Ace's reaction was a classic "pussy tactic". Just sayin’. He waited until Punk was long gone to retort, react, admit to doing everything Punk was accusing him of, and then blindside Mick Foley like a coward. Ace is the BAD guy, undisputedly. Punk's smarmy delivery is just rubbing certain (somewhat milquetoast) types the wrong way. But don't be mistaken, he is RIGHT about Ace. That IS the story they're telling. This IS the intention. And for the record, a world where someone relates to a conniving back-stabbing corporate yes-man stooge, is a world I don't want to live in. I can understand not liking Punk. That's subjective. But Ace is in no way the "good guy". He’s just not in-your-face about his duplicity. He’s sneaky. Like these types of dickheads in real life. That said, is Punk an asshole? Absolutely. And admittedly. But he's straight with people. He's a douchebag, but he's honest about it. That's his character. He tells it like it is, but does so in a super-confident way that's sometimes oft-putting to those with more sensitive dispositions. I myself totally relate to him. I respect a character who (kayfabe) stands up to treachery and annihilates the stupid or ignorant with words. Here's a guy who's not blessed with the physical tools a John Cena or even Randy Orton is. So he adapts and embraces his greatest attribute: his big mouth. He goes out there and obliterates phony facades and spits in the face of a cultivated society standard of sheer obedience for obedience sake. I find it refreshing. I hate the way the world has turned into a place where no one questions anything anymore, ignores problems, and bends over for the man --because, well, he's the man. Punk's a character I embrace because he fights back, and does so brutally. Only he does so with his wit.
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Savage Gambino
King Koopa
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Post by Savage Gambino on Jan 18, 2012 2:01:07 GMT -5
The fake-out punch by Punk and Ace's reaction was a classic bully tactic. Just sayin'. Ace's reaction was a classic "pussy tactic". Just sayin’. He waited until Punk was long gone to retort, react, admit to doing everything Punk was accusing him of, and then blindside Mick Foley like a coward. Ace is the BAD guy, undisputedly. Punk's smarmy delivery is just rubbing certain (somewhat milquetoast) types the wrong way. But don't be mistaken, he is RIGHT about Ace. That IS the story they're telling. This IS the intention. And for the record, a world where someone relates to a conniving back-stabbing corporate yes-man stooge, is a world I don't want to live in. I can understand not liking Punk. That's subjective. But Ace is in no way the "good guy". He’s just not in-your-face about his duplicity. He’s sneaky. Like these types of dickheads in real life. That said, is Punk an asshole? Absolutely. And admittedly. But he's straight with people. He's a douchebag, but he's honest about it. That's his character. He tells it like it is, but does so in a super-confident way that's sometimes oft-putting to those with more sensitive dispositions. I myself totally relate to him. I respect a character who (kayfabe) stands up to treachery and annihilates the stupid or ignorant with words. Here's a guy who's not blessed with the physical tools a John Cena or even Randy Orton is. So he adapts and embraces his greatest attribute: his big mouth. He goes out there and obliterates phony facades and spits in the face of a cultivated society standard of sheer obedience for obedience sake. I find it refreshing. I hate the way the world has turned into a place where no one questions anything anymore, ignores problems, and bends over for the man --because, well, he's the man. Punk's a character I embrace because he fights back, and does so brutally. Only he does so with his wit. Um, what? No one is saying Johnny Middle Management is in the right, or even sympathizing with him. The fact of the matter is, CM Punk has become unbearable as a face, and quite frankly, anyone putting him in his place would be a nice change of pace. Even Johnny. This has not become "a world where someone relates to a conniving back-stabbing corporate yes-man stooge", rather, it is still a world where the good guys are expected to have more redeeming qualities than "pretty cool guy that doesn't afraid of anything". And if you think people that don't enjoy that sort of thing are, as you say, "sensitive milquetoasts", then I couldn't fathom what you'd say if I said one of my favorite faces in recent history was AJ Styles, a man who, during his sporadic tenure as the top face of TNA, embodied a hunger for competition and putting on five-star matches, instead of bitching like a teenage girl on Facebook who thinks she's the only person on the planet with problems. CM Punk is not revolutionary. CM Punk is not edgy. And I know for damn sure that he is NOT Stone Cold Steve Austin. He's HHH-Lite, who uses worked shoots as crutches because he can't curse in WWE and only looks "cool" because the entire RAW heel roster is crap. CM Punk is the WWE's Sean Cameron, a poster boy for suburban teenage boys who want licence to act like they are the world revolves around them, and for naive girls who "think he's just misunderstood". CM Punk is every fifteen year old slacker who equates a complete lack of tact or restraint as "keepin' it real", and thinks his garage band is going to be the next RATM.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jan 18, 2012 2:24:39 GMT -5
Ace's reaction was a classic "pussy tactic". Just sayin’. He waited until Punk was long gone to retort, react, admit to doing everything Punk was accusing him of, and then blindside Mick Foley like a coward. Ace is the BAD guy, undisputedly. Punk's smarmy delivery is just rubbing certain (somewhat milquetoast) types the wrong way. But don't be mistaken, he is RIGHT about Ace. That IS the story they're telling. This IS the intention. And for the record, a world where someone relates to a conniving back-stabbing corporate yes-man stooge, is a world I don't want to live in. I can understand not liking Punk. That's subjective. But Ace is in no way the "good guy". He’s just not in-your-face about his duplicity. He’s sneaky. Like these types of dickheads in real life. That said, is Punk an asshole? Absolutely. And admittedly. But he's straight with people. He's a douchebag, but he's honest about it. That's his character. He tells it like it is, but does so in a super-confident way that's sometimes oft-putting to those with more sensitive dispositions. I myself totally relate to him. I respect a character who (kayfabe) stands up to treachery and annihilates the stupid or ignorant with words. Here's a guy who's not blessed with the physical tools a John Cena or even Randy Orton is. So he adapts and embraces his greatest attribute: his big mouth. He goes out there and obliterates phony facades and spits in the face of a cultivated society standard of sheer obedience for obedience sake. I find it refreshing. I hate the way the world has turned into a place where no one questions anything anymore, ignores problems, and bends over for the man --because, well, he's the man. Punk's a character I embrace because he fights back, and does so brutally. Only he does so with his wit. Um, what? No one is saying Johnny Middle Management is in the right, or even sympathizing with him. The fact of the matter is, CM Punk has become unbearable as a face, and quite frankly, anyone putting him in his place would be a nice change of pace. Even Johnny. This has not become "a world where someone relates to a conniving back-stabbing corporate yes-man stooge", rather, it is still a world where the good guys are expected to have more redeeming qualities than "pretty cool guy that doesn't afraid of anything". And if you think people that don't enjoy that sort of thing are, as you say, "sensitive milquetoasts", then I couldn't fathom what you'd say if I said one of my favorite faces in recent history was AJ Styles, a man who, during his sporadic tenure as the top face of TNA, embodied a hunger for competition and putting on five-star matches, instead of bitching like a teenage girl on Facebook who thinks she's the only person on the planet with problems. CM Punk is not revolutionary. CM Punk is not edgy. And I know for damn sure that he is NOT Stone Cold Steve Austin. He's HHH-Lite, who uses worked shoots as crutches because he can't curse in WWE and only looks "cool" because the entire RAW heel roster is crap. CM Punk is the WWE's Sean Cameron, a poster boy for suburban teenage boys who want licence to act like they are the world revolves around them, and for naive girls who "think he's just misunderstood". CM Punk is every fifteen year old slacker who equates a complete lack of tact or restraint as "keepin' it real", and thinks his garage band is going to be the next RATM. I couldn't disagree more. And I never said he was the best babyface ever, or even compared him to any other babyface, Styles included. I only stated that, in this case, against Ace, the bad guy, he's the good guy -- something some people in this thread, and others, have alluded to. Punk's venom thus far has been primarily directed at those who have deserved the thrashing; archetypes in serious need of being shook up, exposed or brought down a peg or two. He's a bad guy doing in worse guys. Everything his character has said for the most part --outside of the silly HHH de-railing in September-- has been true. He just delivers it in a smarmy way that irritates people that I called "milquetoast" because they seem genuinely offended by his verbiage and put off by the truth his character spews just because, well, it's arrogant. I can understand hating the guy. But seeing the corporate stooge as the good guy in this is strange. I also don't see how you can see him as a "15 year old slacker". It's ridiculous. A hypocrite? Maybe I could see that. He is after all the "man" now, riding an argument that no longer applies to him anymore. And your venom in this topic is a little intense. (especially the girls thinking he's misunderstood line and the crack about the garage band). I think you may be a little emotionally invested in hating guys like him to come up with an attack that passionate. I myself simply and clearly explained why I liked him, related, and saw him as the good guy in this particular feud. I have yet to see anyone logically debunk why he's not. That was my point. Everything else was my opinion. (even though it's right. )
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Post by perpetualn00b on Jan 18, 2012 2:40:24 GMT -5
Ace's reaction was a classic "pussy tactic". Just sayin’. I'd take the pussy over the bully any day of the week, for my part.
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Post by joebob27 on Jan 18, 2012 2:49:31 GMT -5
Ace's reaction was a classic "pussy tactic". Just sayin’. I'd take the pussy over the bully any day of the week, for my part. Then you should probably be rooting for heels. Or not watching wrestling. Dunno what to tell you.
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Post by perpetualn00b on Jan 18, 2012 2:58:11 GMT -5
I'd take the pussy over the bully any day of the week, for my part. Then you should probably be rooting for heels. Or not watching wrestling. Dunno what to tell you. Most heels are bullies. That's why you want to see them get beat (or, it's one possible reason. There are others). Faces usually aren't, in context. I'm not sure what you're getting at.
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Post by joebob27 on Jan 18, 2012 3:01:53 GMT -5
Then you should probably be rooting for heels. Or not watching wrestling. Dunno what to tell you. Most heels are bullies. That's why you want to see them get beat (or, it's one possible reason. There are others). Faces usually aren't, in context. I'm not sure what you're getting at. Not in the WWE, they aren't, most heels are total pussies who are lucky to survive with their lives, forget about actually winning matches. Most faces are d-bags, bullies, or both. There's the occasionally comedy face or monster heel, or Rey Mysterio (who just can't be booked like that) to muddy up the waters, but this is the way they book.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jan 18, 2012 3:08:37 GMT -5
Ace's reaction was a classic "pussy tactic". Just sayin’. I'd take the pussy over the bully any day of the week, for my part. Ace is a bully. He's exploiting his position of authority to make the lives of a handful of popular babyfaces Hell. It's the very definition of being a bully : using any sort of power (be it physical or mental) to abuse or torment others. Punk just called him out on being a phony and a coward -- a coward who proved him right by blindsiding Foley. It was all right there.
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Post by perpetualn00b on Jan 18, 2012 3:14:55 GMT -5
Most faces are d-bags, bullies, or both. I, frankly, disagree. Cena's neither. Show's neither, Sheamus' neither. Kelly's neither. Kofi's neither. Bourne's neither. Ryder's neither. Eve's neither. Aj's neither. Punk's actually the only regularly active face I'd consider either a douchebag or a bully (keep in mind I'm talking about their actions as faces). And I find him completely unlikeable. I see neither character in this feud as even resembling a face, but at least Ace has an excuse. Punk has had nothing done to him that he didn't bring on himself when he left the WWE with the title back after MitB.
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Post by joebob27 on Jan 18, 2012 3:21:10 GMT -5
Big Show isn't a bully or a D-bag? How exactly did the Mark Henry story arc begin?
Cena is totally a bully and dismissive of anyone who comes within a 10 foot radius of him. Ryder is a douchebag, but also is a comedy face so he's an exception. Sheamus.... also a bully, and he fit the heel "mold" when he was a heel. The rest of them are faceless losers with next to no character development.
And I won't even go into Randy Orton, who is a psychopath.
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Post by perpetualn00b on Jan 18, 2012 3:34:44 GMT -5
I'd take the pussy over the bully any day of the week, for my part. Ace is a bully. He's exploiting his position of authority to make the lives of a handful of popular babyfaces Hell. It's the very definition of being a bully : using any sort of power (be it physical or mental) to abuse or torment others. Punk just called him out on being a phony and a coward -- a coward who proved him right by blindsiding Foley. It was all right there. Fair enough, but your mirrored reply implied you thought that "pussy" (why do we connote weakness and cowardice with female genitalia again?) was equivalent to or worse than "bully". And that still leaves us with two bullies fighting each other, and me looking for someone worth cheering for. A face should have actually admirable qualities, and not merely be less bad then the heel they're against.
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Post by perpetualn00b on Jan 18, 2012 3:41:42 GMT -5
Big Show isn't a bully or a D-bag? How exactly did the Mark Henry story arc begin? Cena is totally a bully and dismissive of anyone who comes within a 10 foot radius of him. Ryder is a douchebag, but also is a comedy face so he's an exception. Sheamus.... also a bully, and he fit the heel "mold" when he was a heel. The rest of them are faceless losers with next to no character development. And I won't even go into Randy Orton, who is a psychopath. I wasn't watching SD! at the time, so I can't answer your first question. Cena's hardly a bully, on the whole. He's been face long enough that I'm sure there are a few exceptions, but on the whole before his current story arc began he's been as heroic as you can get in wrestling. Heel Ryder was totally a douchebag, and heel Sheamus was a picture perfect bully, but these tendencies have been eliminated or at least dramatically toned down since their face turns. I'll give you Orton, though. Somehow forgot about him.
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Tiger Maskooo
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Post by Tiger Maskooo on Jan 18, 2012 4:10:57 GMT -5
Sean explained it pretty well but I want to hammer it home.
Johnny Ace is a wolf in sheeps clothing. The entire point of him is that he is a transparently dishonest backstabbing weasel.
Hes a bully who has made everybodies life difficult while smirking about it and playing dumb.
CM Punk recognises it and has enough balls to speak out on it. He tears johnny apart verbally then if there was ANY doubt of john's character as a human he proved cm punk right.
John is pathetic yes but so is most evil,that doesnt make him a hero. CM Punk is an asshole but hes an asshole who is trying to do the right thing and fight the corrupt practices of a bottom feeding backstabbing corporate scumbag.
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Post by 01010010 01101001 01100011 on Jan 18, 2012 4:19:31 GMT -5
And let's not ignore Cena calling Ace out for the same things Punk has.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jan 18, 2012 4:21:32 GMT -5
Ace is a bully. He's exploiting his position of authority to make the lives of a handful of popular babyfaces Hell. It's the very definition of being a bully : using any sort of power (be it physical or mental) to abuse or torment others. Punk just called him out on being a phony and a coward -- a coward who proved him right by blindsiding Foley. It was all right there. Fair enough, but your mirrored reply implied you thought that "pussy" (why do we connote weakness and cowardice with female genitalia again?) was equivalent to or worse than "bully". And that still leaves us with two bullies fighting each other, and me looking for someone worth cheering for. A face should have actually admirable qualities, and not merely be less bad then the heel they're against. My use of pussy was not meant in the literal connotation. I was simply using the established term people usually use for wimps or cowards. I doubt most people think of the female implication when using it. Whether that's right or wrong however is an entirely different debate altogether. Anyway, I see what you're saying about classic white-hat good guy archetypes, but we already have a dude who embodies all those traits in Cena. So why do we need another? That’s not who Punk is. Punk is an anti-hero by definition. A bad guy battling worse guys, often with the same tactics they’d use. Entertainment needs those types, too. For every Superman there’s a Han-Solo or John McClane. And what's Punk's worst crime these days? I mean, really? Arrogance? Big deal. What others see as arrogance, I see as confidence. I don’t want a gosh golly hero, personally. I respect those who do, but that’s not for me. I like a guy with an edge; a guy who’s quick witted. I can relate to that. That’s who I was/am. That said, as long as he doesn't target those who don't deserve it, I'll be happy to cheer the dude as he puts the company's kayfabe assholes in their place.
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Post by perpetualn00b on Jan 18, 2012 4:35:28 GMT -5
For every Superman there’s a Han-Solo A bit beside the point, but I'd put Solo far closer to Supes or Cena then to Punk. Punk is closer to the Punisher (in the context of their respective mediums). A lack of tact and humility. And considering that I see none of Ace's actions (in this feud) to be at all unjustified in the light of Punk's actions leading up to and after Money in the Bank, that leaves us with a relatively even comparison of their personal failings.
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Post by joebob27 on Jan 18, 2012 4:39:25 GMT -5
Big Show isn't a bully or a D-bag? How exactly did the Mark Henry story arc begin? Cena is totally a bully and dismissive of anyone who comes within a 10 foot radius of him. Ryder is a douchebag, but also is a comedy face so he's an exception. Sheamus.... also a bully, and he fit the heel "mold" when he was a heel. The rest of them are faceless losers with next to no character development. And I won't even go into Randy Orton, who is a psychopath. I wasn't watching SD! at the time, so I can't answer your first question. Cena's hardly a bully, on the whole. He's been face long enough that I'm sure there are a few exceptions, but on the whole before his current story arc began he's been as heroic as you can get in wrestling. Heel Ryder was totally a douchebag, and heel Sheamus was a picture perfect bully, but these tendencies have been eliminated or at least dramatically toned down since their face turns. I'll give you Orton, though. Somehow forgot about him. Cena is totally a bully, verbally and physically. And Sheamus was as soft as a marshmallow as a heel. Hell, they went out of their way to prove this. Ducking people, running from Nexus, vanquishing Trips by attacking him from behind, the way he won the title the second time, etc... This is the way they book, the face is normally loud, obnoxious and violent and the heel is just kinda "there".
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jan 18, 2012 5:01:37 GMT -5
For every Superman there’s a Han-Solo A bit beside the point, but I'd put Solo far closer to Supes or Cena then to Punk. Punk is closer to the Punisher (in the context of their respective mediums). A lack of tact and humility. And considering that I see none of Ace's actions (in this feud) to be at all unjustified in the light of Punk's actions leading up to and after Money in the Bank, that leaves us with a relatively even comparison of their personal failings. Hano Solo had no tact or humility either. But he did the right thing in the end. That's how I see Punk. He's a rogue. And Ace's shortcomings as a human being have been well documented thus far, even on WWE TV. Hell, he even rubbed in John Morrison's "firing" for no reason but to be smug. His character is a complete tool and a phony. Punk's a jerk, sure, but he'll admit that. Ace puts on a fake facade. And he's a coward, which was proven on Monday with Foley. If he did that to Punk, that'd be one thing. But what did Foley do? Want a chance to wrestle in a 30-man match? Ace is an asshole. He deserves everything he's getting/will get. Wait for your Punk retribution if/when he feuds with someone with actual moral high-ground. Ace is no victim.
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Post by perpetualn00b on Jan 18, 2012 5:02:08 GMT -5
Cena is totally a bully, verbally and physically. I'm sorry, I honestly don't see it. Yes, that's part of why he was such a great bully. He picked on people weaker then him (Noble, for instance, but he tailed it whenever someone stronger then him showed up (note that this last bit is part of the "bully" archetype that Punk doesn't adhere to).
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MOONDOG
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Post by MOONDOG on Jan 18, 2012 5:13:10 GMT -5
Not gonna lie...marked a little bit for Ace this week.
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