Dean-o
Grimlock
Haha we're having fun Maggle!
Posts: 13,865
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Post by Dean-o on Jun 9, 2013 18:20:10 GMT -5
Yes, it's fascinating stuff. I go to a monthly indy fed here in Connecticut (CTWE for those who follow indy wrestling) and these guys bust their ass, put on such a great show, and is it just for the love of the business? Because tickets cost $10/$20 and the building holds about 250-300 people, which they pretty much sell out every month. After renting the building, ring crew, attracting one big old "star" or ROH wrestler, I try to do the math in my head and it just doesn't add up. They've run for about 5 years now, so they must make a profit, but how much can you realistically earn by being an indy promoter? Not even mentioning the wrestlers, who I guess make $40-$60 a show probably. Well we might have bumped into each other before. I have been in the back at a couple of CTWE shows. I actually have run all my shows in CT. I started doing stuff in wrestling back when Lukas Sharp, Vlad, and others were training with Paul Roma back in the mid-2000's. Actually when Lukas won the title, he was holding 2 belts...the other one was from my old promotion. Just so happens Frankie was the last champion and my buddy had the title in a bag in his trunk. That is awesome. Small world I guess. And was that the NEW title?
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Post by Chairman of the Board on Jun 9, 2013 18:22:36 GMT -5
Well we might have bumped into each other before. I have been in the back at a couple of CTWE shows. I actually have run all my shows in CT. I started doing stuff in wrestling back when Lukas Sharp, Vlad, and others were training with Paul Roma back in the mid-2000's. Actually when Lukas won the title, he was holding 2 belts...the other one was from my old promotion. Just so happens Frankie was the last champion and my buddy had the title in a bag in his trunk. That is awesome. Small world I guess. And was that the NEW title? Power and Glory Wrestling.
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MolotovMocktail
Grimlock
Home of the 5-time, 5-time, 5-time, 5-time 5-time Super Bowl Champion 49ers-and Wrestlemania 31
Posts: 13,976
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Post by MolotovMocktail on Jun 9, 2013 18:51:37 GMT -5
What is an ideal schedule to run so you can build your fed's fan base and develop angles without breaking the bank? I envision doing bi-monthly shows as a realistic goal to work for, but that might burn through your funds if you don't grow quickly.
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Post by TK The Friendly Robot on Jun 9, 2013 18:55:41 GMT -5
Are storylines important when starting out or should you be attempting to simply put out the best matches in ring? If I was going to be doing this I would want to do something monthly and wondered if different people should be wrestling on each show or if there should be actual feuds. What tends to be a more popular method of getting fans through the door? Workrate or storytelling? Thought I'd repost seen as I wasn't sure if you'd seen this. Thanks.
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Post by Chairman of the Board on Jun 9, 2013 19:43:49 GMT -5
It depends on what you are going for.
I tried to run often and post videos online frequently. I always tried to bring in somebody new or different to keep old fans coming back and new fans trying out the shows. The final show I ran had like 400-500 people. I stopped running because it became too big and too much work. I always had local guys in stories and making video and putting out promos. I also tried to do something special for each event.
Some people prefer to run fewer big money shows. Some people like running many low risk shows.
Booking the show itself is an entirely different story. I had my own personal set of guidlines when creating the card and putting the order and times together. One of the most important aspects to putting a show on is keeping good time. The crowd dictates how good a show is, if they are burned out and bored they won't come back. It's better to leave them wanting more than wanting it to end.
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The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
Posts: 15,785
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Post by The OP on Jun 9, 2013 20:36:06 GMT -5
I'm convinced that the main reason so many indies run schools is just so they can make the students work ring crew and not spend money on refs (which kinda sucks because then 90% of the refs are terrible, and having a ref who knows what they're doing really does make a difference). Actually that isn't the reason. For the most part people run at schools because it's the best or only venue. If you run show the benefits a local charity or school sports team you can often get the venue for FREE. Usually the kids helping are part of the charity or team. At a school you know you have restrooms, a custodian, chairs, tables, bleachers, and other great resources...oh yeah PARKING!! I was actually referring to companies running their own wrestling schools and using the trainees as ring crew.
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Post by Chairman of the Board on Jun 9, 2013 20:48:41 GMT -5
Ohhhh.
I actually never had trouble finding a good ref. I've been blessed.
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SOR
Unicron
Posts: 2,611
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Post by SOR on Jun 9, 2013 21:15:14 GMT -5
I'm convinced that the main reason so many indies run schools is just so they can make the students work ring crew and not spend money on refs (which kinda sucks because then 90% of the refs are terrible, and having a ref who knows what they're doing really does make a difference). The reason people open up wrestling schools is because you can charge a fee (Usually around the 500-1000 dollar mark but sometimes 1500+) and then 15-20 bucks a lesson for a "room rental" Then on top of that these guys usually work 1-2 years for free before getting a small pay day so you're getting someone to pay dues for a long time which is beneficial.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Jun 9, 2013 21:56:52 GMT -5
Even though I'll never have the money to do this. It's a dream to do it. This is very interesting stuff. I think this also applies to any kind of wrestling company just for like TNA or WWE you have a bigger budget and need to invest more in other areas. But it's interesting stuff to read and learn about the business through person experience. I remember Power and Glory wrestling from this site. I thought the man who was champion most of the time Brian Anthony was a great talent and a good heel.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Jun 9, 2013 22:03:15 GMT -5
It's really fascinating to read this. I'm trying to help out with area promotions, but I'd like to learn more so I can be more of an asset to the people I work with or to other area groups [currently working with a promotion in RI, so I'm around the areas mentioned here]- any information that I can use to improve my skills would help.
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Post by TK The Friendly Robot on Jun 10, 2013 7:45:51 GMT -5
Thanks for the information man, keep it coming if you have the inclination. Oh also would you recommend doing as much as possible off your own back or is trying to find a partner and someone to share the workload adventageous? Also not to pry but could you share what your average profit margin was compared to expenditure? If you don't feel comfortable sharing that however, I can understand.
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Post by Chairman of the Board on Jun 10, 2013 9:21:35 GMT -5
Thanks for the information man, keep it coming if you have the inclination. Oh also would you recommend doing as much as possible off your own back or is trying to find a partner and someone to share the workload adventageous? Also not to pry but could you share what your average profit margin was compared to expenditure? If you don't feel comfortable sharing that however, I can understand. The more help the better. I started running with four people. My first show was at Paul Roma's Wrestling School in Bridgeport, CT. The ring was free, because it as set up. The venue was free, because it was the school. The only thing I paid for on the first show was workers. Depending on the venues you're looking at around 1500 to run somehting small. IF ring is 500, and venue is 500, then local workers can be 500. Honestly, it's like I said in my first post. It is all about the venue. You have a place that fits 100, you're only going to clear like 2k tops IF you make vending money and sell out. Ideally I liked venue that held around 300. Then you shoot for a show that can be covered by 100-150 fans and if you sell out you're doing pretty well. The tough part is getting fans. I did it with online video and networking. We also had an in with the WWE so we always had free stuff for raffles. Oh yeah raffles!!! 50/50 and Prize raffles makes money!! Here are forms of advertising I used at least once Newpaper articles and ads TV Commericals TV Show Local Flyering Loacl Sponsors Local Ticket Outlets Social Networking Owning the Website Wrestling message boards Wrestling news sites ..... so yeah, being successful running an INDY is 90% promoting.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Jun 10, 2013 23:11:06 GMT -5
Thanks for the information man, keep it coming if you have the inclination. Oh also would you recommend doing as much as possible off your own back or is trying to find a partner and someone to share the workload adventageous? Also not to pry but could you share what your average profit margin was compared to expenditure? If you don't feel comfortable sharing that however, I can understand. The more help the better. I started running with four people. My first show was at Paul Roma's Wrestling School in Bridgeport, CT. The ring was free, because it as set up. The venue was free, because it was the school. The only thing I paid for on the first show was workers. Depending on the venues you're looking at around 1500 to run somehting small. IF ring is 500, and venue is 500, then local workers can be 500. Honestly, it's like I said in my first post. It is all about the venue. You have a place that fits 100, you're only going to clear like 2k tops IF you make vending money and sell out. Ideally I liked venue that held around 300. Then you shoot for a show that can be covered by 100-150 fans and if you sell out you're doing pretty well. The tough part is getting fans. I did it with online video and networking. We also had an in with the WWE so we always had free stuff for raffles. Oh yeah raffles!!! 50/50 and Prize raffles makes money!! Here are forms of advertising I used at least once Newpaper articles and ads TV Commericals TV Show Local Flyering Loacl Sponsors Local Ticket Outlets Social Networking Owning the Website Wrestling message boards Wrestling news sites ..... so yeah, being successful running an INDY is 90% promoting. I think that is true for all of wrestling. We had what was a successful indies fed in the late 90's earily 2000's call GCW (Gateway championship wrestling)Which was best noted for Delirious and Daise Haze. Anyway they flyered the crap out there shows. I remember one show that was headlined by Jerry Lynn who in the later years was a semi regular. Even had a title run with them. They had flyers everywhere. Even at pick and pull junk yard for cars. I find it mixed now if it harder or easier to promote because back then there was more wrestling stores. They would allow to put flyers and stuff at them. Which is far and in between these days but Social media is better.
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The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
Posts: 15,785
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Post by The OP on Jun 11, 2013 14:29:46 GMT -5
In another thread about indie wrestling we talked about the problem with over-reliance on social media. I think what it comes down to there is that social media advertising is more useful in maintaining interest among an existing fan base than for building a fan base for a new company from scratch. If nobody knows who you are and you try to depend on social media what you end up with is basically workers promoting to each other along with the handful of diehard local wrestling fans who are gonna be at every indie show in the area regardless. I certainly think it's possible that an indie company could have a video "go viral" and attract a lot of new business via the internet that way, like if they could make it onto Tosh.0 for example, but they'd have to come up with something pretty unique and special. Some no name getting slammed through a table isn't gonna cut the mustard.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2013 15:06:47 GMT -5
Chairman, in your experience promoting various shows do you find that bringing in guys like Hacksaw or the Honky Tonk Man or someone similar significantly increases fan interest and ticket sales?
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Post by Chairman of the Board on Jun 11, 2013 15:18:23 GMT -5
Chairman, in your experience promoting various shows do you find that bringing in guys like Hacksaw or the Honky Tonk Man or someone similar significantly increases fan interest and ticket sales? Yes. I'll use Hacksaw as an example. I had a nice local line-up for my show, including Rob Eckos (Robbie E.), Matt Taven, and other popular local guys. Since I already knew Hacksaw in passing I booked him to fight for my "world title" against a worker he already knew was safe. The most important thing that booking a single name will do is give people a reason to buy front rows seats. So instead of $15 for reserved that may or may not sell out you can charge $20 for reserve and push to sell all 80-100 of those seats. Plus, you also can get part of the merch they do depending on the deal you work out. It depends on the guy. I was able to work a deal with Hacksaw in which we split "mini autographed 2x4's" something as simple as that can add up and really help the show. Actually the proof is in the pudding. Here is a highlight video from the show I am speaking of. We did 250+ which was good enough because this was a new town and new venue. This also part of a "spring tour" which featured 4 shows over the course of a few weeks. Enjoy. The CTWE fan(s) will see a bunch of guys they know. At the end Hacksaw gives speech and you can see many fans stuck around for it.
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Post by Chairman of the Board on Jun 11, 2013 15:45:28 GMT -5
So you want to run an INDY show?
Ok, what do you guys want to hear about next.
How to book a show the audience will enjoy? How to put together a sustainable roster? How to find venues?
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Post by TK The Friendly Robot on Jun 11, 2013 15:52:46 GMT -5
I'm most interested in how to put together a sustainable roster. I have writing experience and I have experience with venue rental so I'd like to hear about sustaining a roster first.
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Post by Chairman of the Board on Jun 11, 2013 16:47:19 GMT -5
I'm most interested in how to put together a sustainable roster. I have writing experience and I have experience with venue rental so I'd like to hear about sustaining a roster first. HOW TO PUT TOGETHER A ROSTER Ok, what I am about to say is how I personally put my shows together. This isn't the only way, but it's a safe and economical way. I ran shows on a shoestring budget and couldn't afford to lose big bucks on ANY show. I ran show to show and one big loss would be almost impossible to take without questioning whether it's worth the time and effort. 1) Get to know and partner with the local talent. My promotion started at Paul Roma's wrestling school. This gave me the luxury of having a handful of properly trained local guys. Local guys were the life blood of my promotion. You NEED local guys who have a stake in the success of your show. You NEED guys who will tell friends and family, sell tickets, help flyer, and give a hand. The payback for helping you is good spot on the roster. If you start running you'll book all sorts of guys, but these local guys are your mainstays. They are the heroes and the villains that your fans will get to know and they can count on at every show. Honestly, I couldn't have done it without the local guys. They helped make it worth it. Without lots of help you will never make it. 2) Slowly book traveling (hr+ drive) workers Guys who travel NEED to paid enough to cover travel expenses. If you can't swing more than a tank of gas you'll never be a high priority. When booking a guy who travels I usually would ask him if he had knew a good worker who would like to come with him. This is something so simple that makes guys enjoy traveling. They get paid enough to cover expenses and don't have to come alone. Sometimes several guys will ride together thus making it cheaper for them. Also try and find talent through other talent. If you are a good promoter and nice guy they will put you over and keep costs down. For example if you message a worker and ask to book them they will give you a primo price. However, if somebody he know says "hey you want to work here? the pay is ok, but it's fun" you'll most likely get a lesser rate because lots of guys just want a good place to work regularly. 3) CAREFULLY and THOUGHTFULLY book "name" talent. This is where people hit it rich or lose it all. More often you lose. Legends and WWE/TNA guys often get THOUSANDS for a single appearance. That DOESN'T include flight and hotel. That is a huge investment. Let's say you get lucky and are able to book somebody for 2500 including flight and hotel. That is 250 $10 GA tickets, which is a lot for the type of show you will be running your first time through. Get to know "name" guys who can DRIVE to your shows! I am in CT so I always kept current on where guys were living. For example I booked Brutus "the Barber" Beefcake specifically because was within driving distance. Not only will you save on hotel and airfare, sometimes they will come cheaper because they don't have the hassle of flying and packing. Also, remember ANYBODY who you are flying in will NEED rides! To the hotel, from the hotel, from the show. For example I ran a show with Al Snow, I had to pay a crew member to get him from NJ, drive him to CT. Then after the show I had to drive him back to NJ. So book somebody you might not mind talking to. In fact, the car ride with Al Snow helped make that financial disaster of a show worth it. Start small. Don't book guys to book guys. Less = More Your first show should have NO MORE than 7 matches. If you do 6 singles and a tag that is 16 PAID workers. Plus you need TWO refs at least. Don't forget any managers or valets get PAID too. Have a list of all the workers with how much they are paid next to them. When you book the matches find out how much each match is truly costing you. Let's say you have want a 4-way, but it costs 120. You have to ask yourself if 12 people are truly coming JUST because of this match. Will I really lose 6 tickets if Joe Blow from out of state isn't here? Usually you won't. Remember you're featuring your LOCAL guys and only a HANDFUL of guys who have to travel very far. The key to my success, was a TEAM of local guys. They help you sell tickets, flyer, and network. The promoter and worker BOTH benefit from the success of a local promotion. Don't take them for granted and MAKE SURE you don't let them take you for granted. I made good spots on my show something to work for. I started with NO TITLE and eventually guys were booked based on how many people they can draw, how the crowd reacted to them, and how much they helped promote. I could keep typing forever but this should help some people. 1) Go Local. Reward hard work. Always pay even if it's $20. 2) Book as much as possible by networking. 3) Produce GOOD videos and highlights. 4) CAREFULLY think about booking expensive talent. The only way to start a promotion on the cheap is to start running shows on the cheap. You don't want to pay a bunch of guys and look like an idiot when you stumble on your first show. It take several shows before you can even begin to run them properly. That iswhole different issue. the Gate! the merch! the music! the timing! the concessions! That is before you even start dealing with the wrestlers.
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Post by TK The Friendly Robot on Jun 11, 2013 17:15:08 GMT -5
I'm most interested in how to put together a sustainable roster. I have writing experience and I have experience with venue rental so I'd like to hear about sustaining a roster first. HOW TO PUT TOGETHER A ROSTER Ok, what I am about to say is how I personally put my shows together. This isn't the only way, but it's a safe and economical way. I ran shows on a shoestring budget and couldn't afford to lose big bucks on ANY show. I ran show to show and one big loss would be almost impossible to take without questioning whether it's worth the time and effort. 1) Get to know and partner with the local talent. My promotion started at Paul Roma's wrestling school. This gave me the luxury of having a handful of properly trained local guys. Local guys were the life blood of my promotion. You NEED local guys who have a stake in the success of your show. You NEED guys who will tell friends and family, sell tickets, help flyer, and give a hand. The payback for helping you is good spot on the roster. If you start running you'll book all sorts of guys, but these local guys are your mainstays. They are the heroes and the villains that your fans will get to know and they can count on at every show. Honestly, I couldn't have done it without the local guys. They helped make it worth it. Without lots of help you will never make it. 2) Slowly book traveling (hr+ drive) workers Guys who travel NEED to paid enough to cover travel expenses. If you can't swing more than a tank of gas you'll never be a high priority. When booking a guy who travels I usually would ask him if he had knew a good worker who would like to come with him. This is something so simple that makes guys enjoy traveling. They get paid enough to cover expenses and don't have to come alone. Sometimes several guys will ride together thus making it cheaper for them. Also try and find talent through other talent. If you are a good promoter and nice guy they will put you over and keep costs down. For example if you message a worker and ask to book them they will give you a primo price. However, if somebody he know says "hey you want to work here? the pay is ok, but it's fun" you'll most likely get a lesser rate because lots of guys just want a good place to work regularly. 3) CAREFULLY and THOUGHTFULLY book "name" talent. This is where people hit it rich or lose it all. More often you lose. Legends and WWE/TNA guys often get THOUSANDS for a single appearance. That DOESN'T include flight and hotel. That is a huge investment. Let's say you get lucky and are able to book somebody for 2500 including flight and hotel. That is 250 $10 GA tickets, which is a lot for the type of show you will be running your first time through. Get to know "name" guys who can DRIVE to your shows! I am in CT so I always kept current on where guys were living. For example I booked Brutus "the Barber" Beefcake specifically because was within driving distance. Not only will you save on hotel and airfare, sometimes they will come cheaper because they don't have the hassle of flying and packing. Also, remember ANYBODY who you are flying in will NEED rides! To the hotel, from the hotel, from the show. For example I ran a show with Al Snow, I had to pay a crew member to get him from NJ, drive him to CT. Then after the show I had to drive him back to NJ. So book somebody you might not mind talking to. In fact, the car ride with Al Snow helped make that financial disaster of a show worth it. Start small. Don't book guys to book guys. Less = More Your first show should have NO MORE than 7 matches. If you do 6 singles and a tag that is 16 PAID workers. Plus you need TWO refs at least. Don't forget any managers or valets get PAID too. Have a list of all the workers with how much they are paid next to them. When you book the matches find out how much each match is truly costing you. Let's say you have want a 4-way, but it costs 120. You have to ask yourself if 12 people are truly coming JUST because of this match. Will I really lose 6 tickets if Joe Blow from out of state isn't here? Usually you won't. Remember you're featuring your LOCAL guys and only a HANDFUL of guys who have to travel very far. The key to my success, was a TEAM of local guys. They help you sell tickets, flyer, and network. The promoter and worker BOTH benefit from the success of a local promotion. Don't take them for granted and MAKE SURE you don't let them take you for granted. I made good spots on my show something to work for. I started with NO TITLE and eventually guys were booked based on how many people they can draw, how the crowd reacted to them, and how much they helped promote. I could keep typing forever but this should help some people. 1) Go Local. Reward hard work. Always pay even if it's $20. 2) Book as much as possible by networking. 3) Produce GOOD videos and highlights. 4) CAREFULLY think about booking expensive talent. The only way to start a promotion on the cheap is to start running shows on the cheap. You don't want to pay a bunch of guys and look like an idiot when you stumble on your first show. It take several shows before you can even begin to run them properly. That iswhole different issue. the Gate! the merch! the music! the timing! the concessions! That is before you even start dealing with the wrestlers. Thanks again for the advice and information Chairman, I'll most definitely take it on board. Is it ever possible to run a successful indy promotion which runs monthly shows without ever booking a "name" star? My creative vision has always been to produce something compelling that is completely grass roots and local but I'd rather know now if something like that would never work in this scenario.
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