Nikki Heyman
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Post by Nikki Heyman on Aug 2, 2013 17:39:09 GMT -5
Nikki, a lot of the crap you are getting probably stems from this line... WWE wants to be sticklers about "History" but retconning someone out of existance is almost as bad as murder imo. It makes it look like you are trying to equate the WWE not mentioning or actively promoting anything Benoit to Benoit murdering his wife and child. That's just not even close to the same thing. It's not even in the same universe. I've had arguments with other people that they would CONDONE Vince not only erasing Benoit, but if he had the technology, replace him completely. What Benoit did was awful, but erasing him from history is murder to me. You refuse to acknowledge he existed, that doesn't explain two other deaths. Applied to actual history, this would be also seen as wrong, so how is this case any different? You erase Benoit, you erase Woman. You erase Woman, you erase her career as well. Following the Six Degrees of "Federation" (almost every wrestler can be tied to another, Kevin Bacon style) then eventually a lot of wrestling history would have to be erased.
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Post by machomuta on Aug 2, 2013 17:42:18 GMT -5
T. I don't care about wrestler's personal lives, I care about what's on my TV. I feel the same way, what he did was totally wrong but it doesnt affect my enjoyment of watching his matches in the slightest.
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on Aug 2, 2013 17:44:14 GMT -5
And that's why DVD players feature a "skip chapter" function. You have the choice to not watch a match if you don't want to and I can completely understand and respect that point of view, I just don't like having the choice to watch them taken away from me. This is what I'm looking for - I may be in the minority, but I don't purchase a lot of WWE DVDs anymore if they're from around Benoit's time and he is NOT included. I didn't buy the RR compilation because I was afraid they wouldn't put 2004 in there. I didn't by the "Satan's Prison" DVD because they altered the commentary. I bought both WWE Encyclopedias because he WAS in there, and they were at least respectful of him despite his crime. What he did was inexcuseable, unpardonable, etc. BUT HE EXISTED. WWE should take solace in the fact that what he did was (to some extent) out of their control, but they cannot be totally held blameless. WWE wants to be sticklers about "History" but retconning someone out of existance is almost as bad as murder imo. I'm gonna respond to this one because it feel like this was one of the last comments I wanted to speak upon before this thread got a little heavy. This comment is really the basis of the argument that goes on in my head as it pertains to Benoit. I totally understand that the WWE doesn't want anything to do with Benoit beyond the mere acknowledgment of his kayfabe title accomplishments buried deep within their records. If I was in charge, I would not want to portray him in a positive light on any of my future releases. But at the same point, I understand Nikki's point about wanting history accurately documented. I collect a ton of wrestling and NFL DVDs. When the NFL releases broadcasts of games, they cut out and edit so many things, it's practically worthless from a historical point of view. I don't only care how the Packers beat the Redskins. I want to see the segment about last week's game. I want to see the halftime analysis and hear how the people who don't know the outcome think it's going to end. Hell, I want to know what is coming on ABC after the game is over. When I consume old entertainment, I enjoy it most when I can view it similarly as possible to the people who saw it as it happened. It gives you a better understanding of history. Now if WWE doesn't value that as much as I do, and they cut him from the DVDs as much as possible, I can live with that. But I certainly understand those who don't want it that way.
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Post by sdoyle7798 on Aug 2, 2013 17:44:52 GMT -5
Nikki, a lot of the crap you are getting probably stems from this line... It makes it look like you are trying to equate the WWE not mentioning or actively promoting anything Benoit to Benoit murdering his wife and child. That's just not even close to the same thing. It's not even in the same universe. I've had arguments with other people that they would CONDONE Vince not only erasing Benoit, but if he had the technology, replace him completely. What Benoit did was awful, but erasing him from history is murder to me. You refuse to acknowledge he existed, that doesn't explain two other deaths. Applied to actual history, this would be also seen as wrong, so how is this case any different? You erase Benoit, you erase Woman. You erase Woman, you erase her career as well. Following the Six Degrees of "Federation" (almost every wrestler can be tied to another, Kevin Bacon style) then eventually a lot of wrestling history would have to be erased. Personally, that mindset seems a bit...odd to me. That's all I am going to say out of respect for the rules of the house.
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Nikki Heyman
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Post by Nikki Heyman on Aug 2, 2013 17:53:32 GMT -5
Fair enough. I just think forgetting history - good and bad - is a bad thing for all.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2013 17:54:27 GMT -5
All I will say is that I wholeheartedly agree with Nikki Heyman. That is all.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2013 17:57:45 GMT -5
No. BECAUSE JR ALWAYS KNEW HOW IT'D END.
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BK From WV
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Post by BK From WV on Aug 2, 2013 18:06:25 GMT -5
I'm personally glad that WWE doesn't include him in stuff. I'm not comfortable watching anything involving him. If you are, that's up to you. I'm not going to say I never enjoyed a Chris Benoit match because I did. The guy was talented. However, the crime he committed is just too much for me to look past. If they make a mention of him, I wouldn't get offended but I sure don't have any desire to ever watch any of his matches. And as others have said, I understand why WWE doesn't include them. They're a business and while there are people that can still enjoy his work, it's just not a good business decision to include a murderer on your programming.
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Post by Digital Witness on Aug 2, 2013 18:11:03 GMT -5
I understand why WWE would want to not go out of their way to promote anything Benoit related. You have a significant population of people that would tune out if he was featured in anything WWE related. But I also have to agree in the non-business sense that erasing history, good or bad, is no good.
At least use Chris Benoit, along with other past performers as examples for the next generations of what not to do and why.
I feel like the new NXT developmental center is going to go a long way towards preventing anything like that from ever happening again.
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Post by Young Game on Aug 2, 2013 18:12:21 GMT -5
You erase Benoit, you erase Woman. You erase Woman, you erase her career as well. Following the Six Degrees of "Federation" (almost every wrestler can be tied to another, Kevin Bacon style) then eventually a lot of wrestling history would have to be erased. I can see where you're coming from with this, I really can. It's for this reason that I was really confused when I found out Vince's Limo was one of the exhibits at WM Axxess. For me, at least, the whole "Exploding Limo" storyline will always be linked to The Benoit Tragedy.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Aug 2, 2013 18:24:27 GMT -5
I don't think we're ever gonna be able to pin his actions on one sole reason. The brain damage combined with the drugs combined with his prior history of spousal abuse combined with his depression following Eddie's passing all obviously added up to a perfect storm of horror.
That said, I feel WWE should only acknowledge Benoit if they don't have any other choice, like maybe an encyclopedia listing or showing multi-man matches that happened to feature him on Classics OnDemand. But referencing him on live WWE TV, or pushing merch and DVDs with him on it? No, he doesn't deserve that, so I'm in favor of his whitewashing in those instances.
Mind you, I'm saying that as someone who can still watch the odd Benoit match, the man was quite good (probably not the god-like worker he was often touted as, but he was always solid). But given the circumstances, I can see why WWE feels they might need to walk on eggshells regarding him. Toothless sorta forced them into an uncomfortable position.
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Aug 2, 2013 18:25:06 GMT -5
I apologize if I got this wrong.
But are some people in here trying to act like WRESTLING FANS are victims of the tragedy?
Because....my god. I knew people took this fake sport seriously sometimes but....my god. Please tell me I'm wrong and people don't want a guy that did unspeakable things to be put back into circulation of media just so their dvd sets can be complete.
Please.
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Post by sdoyle7798 on Aug 2, 2013 18:34:24 GMT -5
You erase Benoit, you erase Woman. You erase Woman, you erase her career as well. Following the Six Degrees of "Federation" (almost every wrestler can be tied to another, Kevin Bacon style) then eventually a lot of wrestling history would have to be erased. Not true. Woman was with Flair, Sullivan, and Sandman off the top of my head. There is more to her than just Benoit. And I don't think they need to "erase" Benoit. But they don't need to promote him, either. Let him be in DVD's, but don't make him the focus of those DVD's. And do not put him in the HOF.
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Post by Hurbster on Aug 2, 2013 18:36:16 GMT -5
I just want to say this before someone goes over the top and this thread gets closed.
I can quite happily go the rest of my life without ever watching a Benoit match again or acknowledging his existence. It's a shame but there it is. I've already spent too much of my time reading this thread about a double murder suicide.
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Post by celticjobber on Aug 2, 2013 18:40:35 GMT -5
The inducted Jimmy Snuka, who killed one of his girlfriends. OJ Simpson beat his wife, was found responsible for her murder in a civil trial, was convicted of armed robbery and kidnapping, but is still in the football HOF. I guess the only difference is that Benoit was still an active wrestler when it happened. Unlike OJ, Benoit also killed his seven year-old son, which makes it much worse. And he most likely killed Daniel using his pro wrestling move the Crippler Crossface. Which makes it pretty disturbing to see old footage of Benoit doing the move.
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Nikki Heyman
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Post by Nikki Heyman on Aug 2, 2013 18:44:38 GMT -5
I don't think they need to "erase" Benoit. But they don't need to promote him, either. Let him be in DVD's, but don't make him the focus of those DVD's. I'd also ask that they not edit the commentary - disclaimers on the disk are all you need.
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BigJerichool222
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Post by BigJerichool222 on Aug 2, 2013 18:46:39 GMT -5
What Benoit did was awful, but erasing him from history is murder to me. Well then it's a good thing they haven't erased him from history, then. Wouldn't want WWE erased from history too for their awful, horrendous crime of murder. It's more like Benoit's that black sheep, creepy distant relative that makes a bad name for your family. So everyone flat out ignores him unless they absolutely HAVE to acknowledge him as part of their kin. Besides, there's nothing wrong with distancing yourself from a lunatic.
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Post by sdoyle7798 on Aug 2, 2013 18:48:35 GMT -5
I don't think they need to "erase" Benoit. But they don't need to promote him, either. Let him be in DVD's, but don't make him the focus of those DVD's. I'd also ask that they not edit the commentary - disclaimers on the disk are all you need. I'm unfamiliar with any edited commentary. What did they edit?
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Nikki Heyman
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Post by Nikki Heyman on Aug 2, 2013 18:52:14 GMT -5
Because....my god. I knew people took this fake sport seriously sometimes but....my god. Please tell me I'm wrong and people don't want a guy that did unspeakable things to be put back into circulation of media just so their dvd sets can be complete. Please. You are incorrect, sir - I merely ask that what happened at the time it happened be represented accurately. I'm not glorifying him, I'm not even saying make a DVD About him now. Just when he is in a match, don't remove it from the event DVD, lie about it ("That footage was destroyed") or alter it because when it happened we DIDN'T know this was going to happen.
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kidglov3s
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Post by kidglov3s on Aug 2, 2013 18:53:50 GMT -5
Because....my god. I knew people took this fake sport seriously sometimes but....my god. Please tell me I'm wrong and people don't want a guy that did unspeakable things to be put back into circulation of media just so their dvd sets can be complete. Please. Even as it is you can own every PPV he competed on for WWF/WWE on commercial DVD through WWF/WWE Home Video in the US and Silvervision in the UK, if you're willing to pay the money for the ones that are OOP (which would only really encompass shows from 2000-2002, 2003 and onward shows are readily available for practically nothing). Like, I own all of those shows but some of them are on VHS.
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