chazraps
Wade Wilson
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Post by chazraps on Aug 2, 2013 16:22:05 GMT -5
Again, am I condoning what Benoit did?? No. I just want Vince to grow a set and acknowledge Benoit's existence. He's actually done so indirectly - they still mention "2 people have won the Rumble from the #1 spot" but don't mention anyone by name. Randy Orton is the youngest world champion in WWE because of Benoit. They won't say that, so I guess it's "Creative retconning". I'll even go out on a limb and say that partially because of Benoit, WWE donated money to the Sports Legacy Institutte despite Vince disagreeing with the findings on Benoit. But, if you want to use that logic, sure, let's erase EVERY SINGLE MURDERER that ever existed. Make for an easy history class with no lessons learned. It's not, but what I have on my bookshelves or in my DVD collection has nothing to do with this discussion. You're all "ZOMG MURDERER", so erase him from YOUR existence. I choose to separate what he did in the sport he had passion for, worked through, worked hurt, worked despite his friends dying around him. I couldn't imagine what that would do to a normal person's mind, now throw in all the meds he was taking, the crazy schedule, the martial strife......... So once more - I DO NOT AND HAVE NOT CONDONED WHAT BENOIT DID IN HIS LAST DAYS. But I have respect for what he did in this business and that his crime may educate a future generation of wrestlers to seek counseling for depression/anxiety/mental issues so that something like this never happens again. All I've learned from you is "ZOMG BENOIT KILLED A CHILD!" I know, I read the news, didn't condone it. Never have, never will. But that does NOT mean he should be erased form existence - you're saying Vince should only increase his god complex and go through the library, somehow digitally replacing Benoit with Bob Holly as requested by so many in the IWC? Again, my respect is toward HISTORY. Stop making this about "condoning what he did." That's not the argument and nobody is suggesting you're saying as much. You're interested in "history." Cool. The WWE has an archive, but they aren't primarily an archivist or museum-catered entity. They're interested in selling an entertainment product to families. There's nothing morally wrong with removing any mention or image of the guy who killed his own family from that family product. It's not about lacking "Balls," but rather having the Balls to not exploit one of the greatest tragedies in wrestling history. It would be much, much worse if the WWE became sleazy enough to sell a Benoit DVD with their own documentary detailing what might have happened and including his matches as "bonus material." Hey kids, ask your parents for money to buy the DVD of the guy who killed his whole family. That would be horrible. WWE could, in all likelihood, profit huge off of Benoit's contributions, but they choose not to in favor of letting their product remain family entertainment and I think they should be commended.
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Nikki Heyman
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Post by Nikki Heyman on Aug 2, 2013 16:32:32 GMT -5
You're interested in "history." Cool. The WWE has an archive, but they aren't primarily an archivist or museum-catered entity. They're interested in selling an entertainment product to families. There's nothing morally wrong with removing any mention or image of the guy who killed his own family from that family product. It's not about lacking "Balls," but rather having the Balls to not exploit one of the greatest tragedies in wrestling history. It would be much, much worse if the WWE became sleazy enough to sell a Benoit DVD with their own documentary detailing what might have happened and including his matches as "bonus material." Hey kids, ask your parents for money to buy the DVD of the guy who killed his whole family. That would be horrible. WWE could, in all likelihood, profit huge off of Benoit's contributions, but they choose not to in favor of letting their product remain family entertainment and I think they should be commended. I'm not asking for that, either. I'm asking for them to NOT alter commentary for matches that he was praised for AT THE TIME they happened, asking them to acknowledge at one time he WAS a good wrestler. I don't want a documentary on his last days either. What I want is that history be respected. Oh, and kids need to learn that not all people are shiny goodie-goodies. Most other professional sports turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to the murderers, animal abusers, wife beaters, etc etc. OJ Simpson is not erased from NFL history. Ty Cobb is not erased from MLB history. It saddens me that Kobe Bryant will be a hall of famer one day. Every other sport is in part, "Entertainment" and should be held to the same standard. But they can't because there's too much damn money involved.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 27,955
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Post by chazraps on Aug 2, 2013 16:43:54 GMT -5
You're interested in "history." Cool. The WWE has an archive, but they aren't primarily an archivist or museum-catered entity. They're interested in selling an entertainment product to families. There's nothing morally wrong with removing any mention or image of the guy who killed his own family from that family product. It's not about lacking "Balls," but rather having the Balls to not exploit one of the greatest tragedies in wrestling history. It would be much, much worse if the WWE became sleazy enough to sell a Benoit DVD with their own documentary detailing what might have happened and including his matches as "bonus material." Hey kids, ask your parents for money to buy the DVD of the guy who killed his whole family. That would be horrible. WWE could, in all likelihood, profit huge off of Benoit's contributions, but they choose not to in favor of letting their product remain family entertainment and I think they should be commended. I'm not asking for that, either. I'm asking for them to NOT alter commentary for matches that he was praised for AT THE TIME they happened, asking them to acknowledge at one time he WAS a good wrestler. I don't want a documentary on his last days either. What I want is that history be respected. Oh, and kids need to learn that not all people are shiny goodie-goodies. Most other professional sports turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to the murderers, animal abusers, wife beaters, etc etc. OJ Simpson is not erased from NFL history. Ty Cobb is not erased from MLB history. It saddens me that Kobe Bryant will be a hall of famer one day. Every other sport is in part, "Entertainment" and should be held to the same standard. But they can't because there's too much damn money involved. Did Simpson, Cobb or Bryant murder their own child while competing on the active roster? Your kids don't need to learn about Chris Benoit. There's infinitely much more important things in the world they should be caring about.
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Nikki Heyman
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Post by Nikki Heyman on Aug 2, 2013 16:58:18 GMT -5
I'm not asking for that, either. I'm asking for them to NOT alter commentary for matches that he was praised for AT THE TIME they happened, asking them to acknowledge at one time he WAS a good wrestler. I don't want a documentary on his last days either. What I want is that history be respected. Oh, and kids need to learn that not all people are shiny goodie-goodies. Most other professional sports turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to the murderers, animal abusers, wife beaters, etc etc. OJ Simpson is not erased from NFL history. Ty Cobb is not erased from MLB history. It saddens me that Kobe Bryant will be a hall of famer one day. Every other sport is in part, "Entertainment" and should be held to the same standard. But they can't because there's too much damn money involved. Did Simpson, Cobb or Bryant murder their own child while competing on the active roster? Your kids don't need to learn about Chris Benoit. There's infinitely much more important things in the world they should be caring about. You're right - I would trach them that murder is wrong no matter how young or old the victim is and that life is precious. A mudered adult is killed a much older child. I would teach them to express their feelings freely and if something really bothers them, talk to me about it If I can't help I can find someone who can. would also teach them not to have inflammatory arguments on the internet.
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mizerable
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You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
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Post by mizerable on Aug 2, 2013 17:05:41 GMT -5
Why don't they just include the matches, but completely blur the character out and bleep his name? That way, you still get your matches. That's a happy medium.
I'm only half joking.
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Post by wallabylikeyou on Aug 2, 2013 17:08:22 GMT -5
Erasing history is wrong but Benoit is not erased from history. Look him up on Wikipedia, he's there. WWE have mentioned him, even if it's very rare. The problem is that WWE is a business and they recognise that to try and make money from him is wrong and to be seen praising him for his achievements would be a PR disaster because his terrible crimes outweigh his achievements.
I'll go full Godwin's Law and say that Hitler got some fine roads built, but it doesn't matter.
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mizerable
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You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
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Post by mizerable on Aug 2, 2013 17:10:22 GMT -5
So you would also accept Vince McMahon playing God and declaring that Chris Benoit didn't exist? I'd hate to be in your history class where all the bad guys aren't talked about DESPITE the good that they did before they went crazy.... They aren't declaring he didn't exist, they're just not mentioning him. The same way the Booth family treated John Wilkes after his assassinated the president. It's not some irrational asshole way of doing things, it's just the easiest way to make others not feel uncomfortable. You are in the minority of people who would like to see Benoit there. That's fine. But the majority of people I would think would be a little uncomfortable with just casually mentioning him. That's like casually saying you're related to Ted Bundy...you're gonna get a lot of weird looks. As far as bad guys doing good...I wonder why Hitler isn't mentioned in art class?
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Post by sdoyle7798 on Aug 2, 2013 17:11:53 GMT -5
WWE wants to be sticklers about "History" but retconning someone out of existance is almost as bad as murder imo.
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Nikki Heyman
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Post by Nikki Heyman on Aug 2, 2013 17:14:10 GMT -5
So you would also accept Vince McMahon playing God and declaring that Chris Benoit didn't exist? I'd hate to be in your history class where all the bad guys aren't talked about DESPITE the good that they did before they went crazy.... They aren't declaring he didn't exist, they're just not mentioning him. The same way the Booth family treated John Wilkes after his assassinated the president. It's not some irrational asshole way of doing things, it's just the easiest way to make others not feel uncomfortable. You are in the minority of people who would like to see Benoit there. That's fine. But the majority of people I would think would be a little uncomfortable with just casually mentioning him. That's like casually saying you're related to Ted Bundy...you're gonna get a lot of weird looks. As far as bad guys doing good...I wonder why Hitler isn't mentioned in art class? Then can we at least get a compromise where Benoit is ON the DVD but not mentioned on the packaging and a disclaimer at the beginning of the disc? I would at least like the choice of whether or not I want to watch him. Vince makes that choice for me and I don't like that anymore than he does when he's told he can't do something. I deliberately chose NOT to invoke Godwin's law..... but he WAS Time Magazine's Man of the Year before WWII. Should we shut down Time Magazine?
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Lancers
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Post by Lancers on Aug 2, 2013 17:17:50 GMT -5
Oh for the love of... I really regret clicking on this thread. Here's a picture of Steph rocking out with a band to cheer you up...
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mizerable
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You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
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Post by mizerable on Aug 2, 2013 17:19:13 GMT -5
OJSimpson is not erased from NFL history. Ty Cobb is not erased from MLB history. It saddens me that Kobe Bryant will be a hall of famer one day. 1. Simpson is treated with the same hesitance that WWE treats Benoit, also he's much more well known for his college days. 2. There is more evidence supporting Cobb wasn't the biggest asshole racist ever as opposed to the half stories with little merit passed down for the last 60 years. Sure, he was an asshole, but not much bigger than most of the guys around that period. If you're looking for racists, there's other ones who were Klan members who are part of the HOF...scrutinize them instead. 3. Kobe Bryant had consensual sex with another adult who wasn't his wife, the other woman later tried to get an easy payday, and was basically call out on it. The biggest issue people had was the fact that he cheated on his wife. Yeah, let's keep him out of the HOF for that. And for the record, I hate Kobe.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Aug 2, 2013 17:20:50 GMT -5
So you would also accept Vince McMahon playing God and declaring that Chris Benoit didn't exist? I'd hate to be in your history class where all the bad guys aren't talked about DESPITE the good that they did before they went crazy.... They aren't declaring he didn't exist, they're just not mentioning him. The same way the Booth family treated John Wilkes after his assassinated the president. It's not some irrational asshole way of doing things, it's just the easiest way to make others not feel uncomfortable. You are in the minority of people who would like to see Benoit there. That's fine. But the majority of people I would think would be a little uncomfortable with just casually mentioning him. That's like casually saying you're related to Ted Bundy...you're gonna get a lot of weird looks. As far as bad guys doing good...I wonder why Hitler isn't mentioned in art class? Because Hitler was a terrible artist.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2013 17:21:00 GMT -5
I hate the judgement some people deliver if someone says they still like watching Benoit. Yes, I understand why some people cannot, however that doesn't make them party to his actions. If someone still likes Micheal Jackson does that mean that they too think its ok to have a child accurately describe their penis in court? If you like Mike Tyson do you support what he did when he was younger? History is littered with great men with darker sides. How many founding fathers owned slaves? How many celebrated rulers have genocide on their hands? I may not like slavery and forced sex but still love to read up on Thomas Jefferson. However, I can understand if some people can't overlook the bad, but I won't be judged by them, because I have NEVER met any of these judgemental people who didn't have some hero or idol that they themselves overlook the darker side of. I'm in the same boat, and while I do think the general attitude that some have towards people that still enjoy his work is a little over the top, the "defense" that those people give Benoit doesn't really help matters at all. I mean hell, observe any of these threads that pop up, everyone turns into armchair psychologists and its awful all around. I don't know why people can't just say "I can still watch and enjoy Benoit matches, but I don't really think he should be in the Hall of Fame and while it does suck from a historical perspective that they don't put his matches on DVDs its not like its that big of a deal that they don't since its 2013 and Youtube exists." Thats it. There's really not a need to go much further than that, because you know how that conversations gonna go. You're not gonna convince someone that he just "snapped" and wasnt in full control of his actions in that moment, you're not gonna get the other side to separate the situation like you're able to, its just pointless all around.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 27,955
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Post by chazraps on Aug 2, 2013 17:21:13 GMT -5
They aren't declaring he didn't exist, they're just not mentioning him. The same way the Booth family treated John Wilkes after his assassinated the president. It's not some irrational asshole way of doing things, it's just the easiest way to make others not feel uncomfortable. You are in the minority of people who would like to see Benoit there. That's fine. But the majority of people I would think would be a little uncomfortable with just casually mentioning him. That's like casually saying you're related to Ted Bundy...you're gonna get a lot of weird looks. As far as bad guys doing good...I wonder why Hitler isn't mentioned in art class? Then can we at least get a compromise where Benoit is ON the DVD but not mentioned on the packaging and a disclaimer at the beginning of the disc? I would at least like the choice of whether or not I want to watch him. Vince makes that choice for me and I don't like that anymore than he does when he's told he can't do something. I deliberately chose NOT to invoke Godwin's law..... but he WAS Time Magazine's Man of the Year before WWII. Should we shut down Time Magazine? Time Magazine is a news magazine. WWE is a family entertainment company. There's a difference. Plus, "Man of the Year" doesn't mean "what a great guy," it's the distinction of being the biggest name in the news. Plenty of jerks have won it over the years. And you have the choice of whether or not to watch him. It's not like, in the age of the internet, Benoit's body of work is hard to find. Case in point - new.ivpvideos2.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=benoit&x=-954&y=-432
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
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Post by mizerable on Aug 2, 2013 17:22:31 GMT -5
Then can we at least get a compromise where Benoit is ON the DVD but not mentioned on the packaging and a disclaimer at the beginning of the disc? I would at least like the choice of whether or not I want to watch him. Vince makes that choice for me and I don't like that anymore than he does when he's told he can't do something. I deliberately chose NOT to invoke Godwin's law..... but he WAS Time Magazine's Man of the Year before WWII. Should we shut down Time Magazine? WWE isn't going to do that, the same way that Warner isn't going to release some of the earlier Looney Tunes because of racist undertones. They want to avoid scandal at all costs, so they rather piss off the minority of people who want Benoit as opposed to the people who would throw a shitfit. He was Time's Magazine Man of the Year for a reason. Osama Bin Laden was in the running for man of the year after 9/11. It isn't exactly a noble feat.
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Nikki Heyman
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Post by Nikki Heyman on Aug 2, 2013 17:27:24 GMT -5
Then can we at least get a compromise where Benoit is ON the DVD but not mentioned on the packaging and a disclaimer at the beginning of the disc? I would at least like the choice of whether or not I want to watch him. Vince makes that choice for me and I don't like that anymore than he does when he's told he can't do something. I deliberately chose NOT to invoke Godwin's law..... but he WAS Time Magazine's Man of the Year before WWII. Should we shut down Time Magazine? Time Magazine is a news magazine. WWE is a family entertainment company. There's a difference. Plus, "Man of the Year" doesn't mean "what a great guy," it's the distinction of being the biggest name in the news. Plenty of jerks have won it over the years. And you have the choice of whether or not to watch him. It's not like, in the age of the internet, Benoit's body of work is hard to find. Case in point - new.ivpvideos2.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=benoit&x=-954&y=-432Time Magazine and WWE have one thing in common. They are in the business to MAKE MONEY. Time Magazine thought that Hitler (before WWII) was a good enough guy to give them their "award" and dedicate an issue to him. Not unlike Vince, who originally started his Raw broadcast as a "Celebration" of Benoit before he learned more details, then the tone of the show changed, and he apologized, and said he was going to strike Benoit from the record. And yes, I have the interwebs to find just about any Benoit match that I want. But I would also be willing to spend real money on a historically accurate version of "Satan's Prison". I'll settle for copies of the NYR shows because at least they're accurate.
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Nikki Heyman
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Post by Nikki Heyman on Aug 2, 2013 17:29:05 GMT -5
Then can we at least get a compromise where Benoit is ON the DVD but not mentioned on the packaging and a disclaimer at the beginning of the disc? I would at least like the choice of whether or not I want to watch him. Vince makes that choice for me and I don't like that anymore than he does when he's told he can't do something. I deliberately chose NOT to invoke Godwin's law..... but he WAS Time Magazine's Man of the Year before WWII. Should we shut down Time Magazine? WWE isn't going to do that, the same way that Warner isn't going to release some of the earlier Looney Tunes because of racist undertones. They want to avoid scandal at all costs, so they rather piss off the minority of people who want Benoit as opposed to the people who would throw a shitfit. He was Time's Magazine Man of the Year for a reason. Osama Bin Laden was in the running for man of the year after 9/11. It isn't exactly a noble feat. Not to get TOO political, but should I condemn my government for supporting Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein in the 80s? There's a boardgame out there that makes Saddam out as a heroic figure. Boy did we get that wrong
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Aug 2, 2013 17:29:45 GMT -5
I guess all I need to do is get my suplex game tight and I can be remembered in a good light no matter what I do after.
I'm gonna steal so many Ferrari's and then run over endangered animals with them.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 2, 2013 17:33:04 GMT -5
The inducted Jimmy Snuka, who killed one of his girlfriends. I laugh every time Opie "mistakenly" makes it awkward.
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Post by sdoyle7798 on Aug 2, 2013 17:33:34 GMT -5
Nikki, a lot of the crap you are getting probably stems from this line... WWE wants to be sticklers about "History" but retconning someone out of existance is almost as bad as murder imo. It makes it look like you are trying to equate the WWE not mentioning or actively promoting anything Benoit to Benoit murdering his wife and child. That's just not even close to the same thing. It's not even in the same universe.
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