The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,304
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Post by The Ichi on Oct 17, 2013 17:52:27 GMT -5
Only thing I take issue with here is people throwing the word "bullying" around. No, just no. A random image you happened to stumble across that isn't even directed at you on a personal level is NOT bullying you. I hate how everything these days gets called bullying, especially when it takes the focus off the real cases.
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
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Post by kidglov3s on Oct 17, 2013 17:53:47 GMT -5
I don't take offense to her quote, because if she is happy with how she turned out, then good for her. Just because something works for one person does not guarantee the exact same result for everyone. I don't think this really fits. Her entire premise is that if something worked for her that proves everyone not only can but should feel that they need to achieve the same result (if they don't then there's an excuse and an excuse that doesn't cut it), and that if they pay her for the secret and try really really hard enough and stop being lazy excuse making idiots who don't have their priorities straight. This is totally a heel gimmick.
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Post by Red Impact on Oct 17, 2013 17:55:14 GMT -5
Only thing I take issue with here if people throwing the word "bullying" around. No, just no. A random image you happened to stumble across that isn't even directed at you on a personal level is NOT bullying you. I hate how everything these days gets called bullying, especially when it takes the focus off the real cases. I agree, and in general I also really dislike the term fat-shaming since I first heard when an oatmeal store in NYC go criticized for saying their food had fewer calories than a bagel. As much as I'll take issue with some of the flaws of the fitness world when it tries to sell itself, I think there's no problem with something like that trying to push healthier options. That's where I think the line is drawn to me. Encouraging people to be healthy is fine by me, even if you're using negative reinforcement (although you should have some real connection to a person before going that route). Setting out to make people scared, nervous, or depressed so you can sell them something expensive and overall unnecessary is sleazy to me, whether it's someone selling fitness DVD's or a doctor selling expensive body scans. And reading that, maybe it's just advertisers that I hate.
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BRV
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants him some Taco Flavored Kisses.
Posts: 16,976
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Post by BRV on Oct 17, 2013 18:32:30 GMT -5
This really is staggering to me. We live in a country in which obesity accounts for 18 percent of deaths among Americans between the ages of 40 and 85, according to the American Journal of Public Health. 300,000 deaths per year are attributable to obesity, according to the surgeon general, overweight adolescents have a 70 percent chance of becoming overweight or obese adults, which increases to 80 percent if one or more parent is overweight or obese, and the cause of death from obesity or being overweight in women is over 20 percent. But the real problem? It's those damned healthy people pushing their health-conscious agenda.
If this woman's advertisement gets even one person to rethink the way they live, the way they eat, or their overall lifestyle, hasn't she done some good?
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Post by Hit Girl on Oct 17, 2013 18:35:11 GMT -5
Fatties need to stop making excuses, be like this woman, and stop getting fatter.
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Post by edgestar on Oct 17, 2013 18:37:47 GMT -5
I don't take offense to her quote, because if she is happy with how she turned out, then good for her. Just because something works for one person does not guarantee the exact same result for everyone. I don't think this really fits. Her entire premise is that if something worked for her that proves everyone not only can but should feel that they need to achieve the same result (if they don't then there's an excuse and an excuse that doesn't cut it), and that if they pay her for the secret and try really really hard enough and stop being lazy excuse making idiots who don't have their priorities straight. This is totally a heel gimmick. I totally agree with this.
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Post by Piccolo on Oct 17, 2013 18:40:40 GMT -5
This really is staggering to me. We live in a country in which obesity accounts for 18 percent of deaths among Americans between the ages of 40 and 85, according to the American Journal of Public Health. 300,000 deaths per year are attributable to obesity, according to the surgeon general, overweight adolescents have a 70 percent chance of becoming overweight or obese adults, which increases to 80 percent if one or more parent is overweight or obese, and the cause of death from obesity or being overweight in women is over 20 percent. But the real problem? It's those damned healthy people pushing their health-conscious agenda. If this woman's advertisement gets even one person to rethink the way they live, the way they eat, or their overall lifestyle, hasn't she done some good? Devil's advocate here, but if this woman's advertisement gets even one person to feel more despairing and hopeless about themselves because apparently they just aren't trying hard, hasn't it done some harm? And further devil's advocating, but we're all gonna feel pretty darn silly when it turns out all leanness vs obesity differences can be resolved by replacing the gut flora. Turning it into a moral crusade leaves ya wide open for some seriously deserved criticism when science finds that some people really couldn't do anything about it (or at least would've had to work ten times harder than someone with the right microbiome).
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Post by Non Banjoble Tokens on Oct 17, 2013 18:43:06 GMT -5
This really is staggering to me. We live in a country in which obesity accounts for 18 percent of deaths among Americans between the ages of 40 and 85, according to the American Journal of Public Health. 300,000 deaths per year are attributable to obesity, according to the surgeon general, overweight adolescents have a 70 percent chance of becoming overweight or obese adults, which increases to 80 percent if one or more parent is overweight or obese, and the cause of death from obesity or being overweight in women is over 20 percent. But the real problem? It's those damned healthy people pushing their health-conscious agenda. If this woman's advertisement gets even one person to rethink the way they live, the way they eat, or their overall lifestyle, hasn't she done some good? To the American Medical Association Statistics website, Robin!!!
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Post by rybackrulez on Oct 17, 2013 18:58:22 GMT -5
Even with bad genetics i stayed not so fat after my weight loss
I have bulked way too much though
It is your fault that you are fat
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2013 19:06:46 GMT -5
Why are people giving their own situations when it comes to losing weight and/or getting healthier and using that as a commentary on how "easy" it is?
I mean, that's cool if you could juggle a job, children, building a suit of armor, retrieving the Gem of Cyttorak, going on a multi-city rampage while still having time to make sure you get your proper servings of fresh vegetables and fruit...
Congratulations, you've found something that works for you. Not everybody's got the time, energy, resources, etc. to do all that stuff with any frequency.
Besides, who the **** is you to tell people whether or not their reasons to be fat aren't "acceptable"? Mind your own damned business instead of concern trolling besides, guess what? You can't really tell who is healthy and who isn't just by how they carry their weight.
And ultimately, this type of stuff is never really about getting healthier, it's about maintaining an image of "healthiness." I could think of quite a few things you could talk about that's actually making people unhealthier, but that journeys very far into Grown Folks DiscussionTM and it'll get kinda political in this piece so...
Let. Me. Stop.
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Post by Piccolo on Oct 17, 2013 19:06:57 GMT -5
Even with bad genetics i stayed not so fat after my weight loss I have bulked way too much though It is your fault that you are fat It's your fault that you judge people based on appearance. I don't know that it's a moral failing that has made a person fat. But I do know that it's a moral failing to kick people when they're already down.
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Post by Wolf Hurricane on Oct 17, 2013 19:37:30 GMT -5
Even with bad genetics i stayed not so fat after my weight loss I have bulked way too much though It is your fault that you are fat It's your fault that you judge people based on appearance. I don't know that it's a moral failing that has made a person fat. But I do know that it's a moral failing to kick people when they're already down. I love this rybackrulez. Every time he tries to explain himself he somehow digs a deeper hole. It's awesome. Keep in mind, this is the same dude that tried to explain how it's okay to like chicks that look underage so long as they aren't underrage and who seemed to take it personally that other people didn't care about losing their virginity. So... yeah.
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
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Post by kidglov3s on Oct 17, 2013 19:42:22 GMT -5
I'm happy Michelle McEwan wrote about this today and I agree with her totes. www.shakesville.com/2013/10/welp.html"This is definitely one of those articles about which, if I weren't on tour with the Twitching Digits, I would totally be writing a 2,000-word screed riddled with profanity. But I'll just quickly make two observations and then turn it over to you in comments for the shredding it deserves. 1. I'm particularly struck by the framing of the article—which is that it's people who react to the image who are the "bullies," but not the person who says "what's your excuse for not looking like me," as if every person is obliged to look like her and capable of doing so. (I'm sure there are people who actually did say nasty, indefensible things, but the framing here is that it's only dissenters, even those who took issue in good faith, who are "bullies.") Not everyone has the ability to look like her; not everyone has the desire to look like her; and no one is required to look like her. The implicit expectation that every fat person should have "an excuse" for not looking like her is hateful, eliminationist garbage. And if eliminationism doesn't count as "bullying," the word has lost all meaning. 2. I also love how it's just supposed to be taken as read that "I don't give a f***, that's why" is definitely not considered a legit excuse for not looking like X. Which underlines how body policing and fat shaming is not really at all about the health (and certainly not the mental health) of the person being hated, but about the aesthetic preferences of the people doing the hating."
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Oct 17, 2013 19:56:34 GMT -5
I'm happy Michelle McEwan wrote about this today and I agree with her totes. www.shakesville.com/2013/10/welp.html"This is definitely one of those articles about which, if I weren't on tour with the Twitching Digits, I would totally be writing a 2,000-word screed riddled with profanity. But I'll just quickly make two observations and then turn it over to you in comments for the shredding it deserves. 1. I'm particularly struck by the framing of the article—which is that it's people who react to the image who are the "bullies," but not the person who says "what's your excuse for not looking like me," as if every person is obliged to look like her and capable of doing so. (I'm sure there are people who actually did say nasty, indefensible things, but the framing here is that it's only dissenters, even those who took issue in good faith, who are "bullies.") Not everyone has the ability to look like her; not everyone has the desire to look like her; and no one is required to look like her. The implicit expectation that every fat person should have "an excuse" for not looking like her is hateful, eliminationist garbage. And if eliminationism doesn't count as "bullying," the word has lost all meaning. 2. I also love how it's just supposed to be taken as read that "I don't give a f***, that's why" is definitely not considered a legit excuse for not looking like X. Which underlines how body policing and fat shaming is not really at all about the health (and certainly not the mental health) of the person being hated, but about the aesthetic preferences of the people doing the hating." For me, these two points that McEwan raises bring together all the fascinating examples of Foucault's idea of technologies of the self (responsibilization, healthism, normalization, self-esteem) seen in this thread, especially when body policing (which includes the policing of the body of the woman in the picture in question, not just the policing of bodies that don't look like those of the body of the woman in the picture) is also basically behaviour policing. As well, the meanings of health are socially constructed, so there really isn't any sort of objective basis upon which we can 'judge' the 'value' of what constituted a good body from a bad body, a healthy body from an unhealthy body, OTHER than the social discourses which regulate, manage, produce (and yes, even shame) bodies and the people who inhabit them to perform according to an idea that has no history of origin per se, but instead emerges from a series of concatenations over time qua scientific discourse (lest we forget, science is always socially situated whereby the meaning of facts which science purports that exists outside of a social, namely human, framework is entirely arbitrary, if not meaningless in itself).
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Sparkybob
King Koopa
I have a status?
Posts: 10,992
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Post by Sparkybob on Oct 17, 2013 20:12:23 GMT -5
Like I said before, it's all personal perspective. I don't understand your viewpoint and you guys/gals don't understand mine. No real wrong answers here.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Oct 17, 2013 20:38:14 GMT -5
This really is staggering to me. We live in a country in which obesity accounts for 18 percent of deaths among Americans between the ages of 40 and 85, according to the American Journal of Public Health. 300,000 deaths per year are attributable to obesity, according to the surgeon general, overweight adolescents have a 70 percent chance of becoming overweight or obese adults, which increases to 80 percent if one or more parent is overweight or obese, and the cause of death from obesity or being overweight in women is over 20 percent. But the real problem? It's those damned healthy people pushing their health-conscious agenda. If this woman's advertisement gets even one person to rethink the way they live, the way they eat, or their overall lifestyle, hasn't she done some good? Devil's advocate here, but if this woman's advertisement gets even one person to feel more despairing and hopeless about themselves because apparently they just aren't trying hard, hasn't it done some harm? And further devil's advocating, but we're all gonna feel pretty darn silly when it turns out all leanness vs obesity differences can be resolved by replacing the gut flora. Turning it into a moral crusade leaves ya wide open for some seriously deserved criticism when science finds that some people really couldn't do anything about it (or at least would've had to work ten times harder than someone with the right microbiome). To be fair though, while genetic factors etc do obviously play a huge role in just how your body type is, eating less+exercising more will and does get 99.9% of the populace in at least some form of better shape. That's not any sorta moral crusade or value judgment, that's just the truth of the matter. Does that mean that the larger discussion of whether or not people should feel offended/alienated by the woman's attitude, or feel badly about themselves for any weight related reason? Nope. Just saying, for the vast majority of people, if they CHOOSE, they can do at least something about it. They may never look like this chick, a bodybuilder guy, whatever, but unless someone is in that percentile that's physically unable to take steps to better themselves, they can do something about their weight if they want to. I still personally am not offended and see it more of a woman proud of an accomplishment and showing it off thusly, but I'll concede that if she had phrased it something like "Look what you can achieve" it'd have probably had less of a negative reaction. Though at the same time, even that could be taken the wrong way depending on your perspective.
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Post by Red Impact on Oct 17, 2013 21:00:07 GMT -5
Diet alone is a bigger factor in weight than pretty much anything else for most people without a serious medical condition. Exercise is important and helps, but fixing your diet and just letting your body burn off the calories it needs to is enough to lose weight. Unless you're training to be an Olympian, you're probably not going to be burning off enough calories to justify eating whatever you want. But you can lose all the weight you need simply by cutting calories. There was a story not that long ago where a professor proved it by eating nothing but junk food in small enough quantities that it didn't provide his body with all the calories it needed. It was a big push to show that weight and health are not synonymous, because even though he was losing weight, it sure as hell wasn't healthy.
But the flip-side of it is that weight is just one facet that's important to health, and exercise does a lot more for the rest of it than it does weight, and genetics, where you live, and all those other elements play a significant role in other facets. You don't need a gym or $200 DVD set or a Juicemaster 2400, but if the target audience really realized that losing weight was really cheap, then they wouldn't spend as much as they have to make the fitness industry such a juggernaut that it is.
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Post by Tom Selleck on Oct 17, 2013 21:00:13 GMT -5
At the end of the day the fit mother wins. She'll still be alive and watching her children grow up while the others eat themselves to an early grave and leave their children parentless because of their unhealthy and selfish life choices. So good job fit Mom, you're providing a better life for yourself and your family.
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Post by rybackrulez on Oct 17, 2013 21:19:14 GMT -5
It's your fault that you judge people based on appearance. I don't know that it's a moral failing that has made a person fat. But I do know that it's a moral failing to kick people when they're already down. I love this rybackrulez. Every time he tries to explain himself he somehow digs a deeper hole. It's awesome. Keep in mind, this is the same dude that tried to explain how it's okay to like chicks that look underage so long as they aren't underrage and who seemed to take it personally that other people didn't care about losing their virginity. So... yeah. also i hated myself when i was fat. I didn't care about my appearance and i was just in general a more negative person. The people taking it personal about their virginities were the angry, bitter virgins who said their non-voluntary abstinence made them smarter. I also said i like girls who look youthful and are of age. I am not lusting after 15 year olds Also excuses for obesity don't matter. It is all about that person's willingness to live a healthier lifestyle than it is about their genetics or social situation. Overeaters Anonymous is hilarious though. If you hear the stories patton oswalt shaped. You eat bad you end up with bad health. No amount of but but but can really make me feel bad for the hyper obese people gorging themselves with bad unhealthy greasy food.along with a sedentary lifestyle But hey excuses excuses.
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Post by Piccolo on Oct 17, 2013 21:31:40 GMT -5
Devil's advocate here, but if this woman's advertisement gets even one person to feel more despairing and hopeless about themselves because apparently they just aren't trying hard, hasn't it done some harm? And further devil's advocating, but we're all gonna feel pretty darn silly when it turns out all leanness vs obesity differences can be resolved by replacing the gut flora. Turning it into a moral crusade leaves ya wide open for some seriously deserved criticism when science finds that some people really couldn't do anything about it (or at least would've had to work ten times harder than someone with the right microbiome). To be fair though, while genetic factors etc do obviously play a huge role in just how your body type is, eating less+exercising more will and does get 99.9% of the populace in at least some form of better shape. That's not any sorta moral crusade or value judgment, that's just the truth of the matter. I'm not actually talking about metabolic conditions resulting from genetic factors, although those are certainly the case for some. I'm talking about the microbiome, and the recent studies demonstrating that modulating it in mammals... just replacing the bacteria in the guts of obese mice with bacteria from the guts of lean mice... confers a lean phenotype on previously obese animals. I know it's unpopular to believe that obesity might not be mainly an issue of willpower, especially for those of us who were able to get lean through diet and exercise alone (or for those who have never had to try to get lean, and just assume it's the default state unless someone's really gorging themselves). But science is telling us a lot of things about weight, not all of which involve calorie counting. Denying that in order to put most of the focus on willpower-related factors IS attempting to boil a complex biological state down to a simple matter of strong vs weak, moral vs immoral, and it's NOT truthful. It's ignoring a good bit of truth for the sake of simplicity or being able to feel superior. In any case, I do believe that for many, diet and exercise can help get you in "better" shape. But "better" shape isn't going to save most people from the body police who think they know everything about everything despite the conspicuous lack of a medical degree. Mrs. Kang could have high cholesterol and blood pressure and her legs could be about to shatter from building stress fractures (don't think so? You should meet some of the runners I've trained with over the years), but she's in perfect health because, well, we can see that she is! No. No, we can't. A visual of a body is not enough to diagnose health.
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