SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Nov 14, 2013 22:18:45 GMT -5
Both of you seem to be self aware enough to know that none of this is true, so what do you gain from lying? Other than generating mildly perturbed responses like this? I 100 percent believe that if Del Rio had spent a decade in the indies he would be worshipped on the IWC and there would be daily threads about how the WWE's booking was killing him and how they don't know how to use him. Are there exceptions to this where someone with a long tenure in the indies who doesn't get over (and I think the live reactions to Del Rio are stronger than some on this thread have indicated -- he does get a lot of heat from the crowd quite often) gets the blame rather than WWE? How could there be threads if the WWE is booking him strong though? If he was popular, and he deserved his perpetual push, wouldn't these (imaginary, hive-mind)) people be happy? The entire point of the Del Rio criticism stems from the fact that there is no justification for his push. It has zero to do with him not being an IWC favorite. That just makes it seem like all the valid criticisms are made up and contrived to suit the strange, misfit view of some butt-hurt malcontent unable to accept reality. When the funny thing is, your aforementioned view is the one that really mirrors that.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Nov 14, 2013 22:19:45 GMT -5
Put me in with the "He's dull" group. There's literally nothing he brings to the table, other than his "Pretend everyone has a concussion like Dolph" moveset. Which makes me wonder, would this have been the result of immediately thrusting a Lance Storm to the world title scene? at leas the matches would've been awesome. and Lance Storm WAS getting built up to be a big deal in WCW, and it was actually working very well before the company went under.
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Post by angryfan on Nov 14, 2013 22:20:18 GMT -5
Honestly, I'm not surprised that ADR has hit a wall.
Take someone who was a success internationally and drew money, and in addition is the second generation star that they crave.
Then change his name, his gimmick, and his wrestling style. Aside from the Mil Mascaras HoF intro, don't acknowledge his heritage or the success he had.
With all that accomplished, you have him go from heel to face to heel again, drop the manager that got him heat, change his music and his entrance, all the while he wrestles the same say six guys for a few years.
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Post by SeVeN: #TheBadGuy. on Nov 14, 2013 22:26:17 GMT -5
I know I personally hate him because every time my DVR catches up to the live showing his damn match or promo starts. Every F'N TIME!
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Nov 14, 2013 22:32:53 GMT -5
I 100 percent believe that if Del Rio had spent a decade in the indies he would be worshipped on the IWC and there would be daily threads about how the WWE's booking was killing him and how they don't know how to use him. Are there exceptions to this where someone with a long tenure in the indies who doesn't get over (and I think the live reactions to Del Rio are stronger than some on this thread have indicated -- he does get a lot of heat from the crowd quite often) gets the blame rather than WWE? How could there be threads if the WWE is booking him strong though? If he was popular, and he deserved his perpetual push, wouldn't these (imaginary, hive-mind)) people be happy? The entire point of the Del Rio criticism stems from the fact that there is no justification for his push. It has zero to do with him not being an IWC favorite. That just makes it seem like all the valid criticisms are made up and contrived to suit the strange, misfit view of some butt-hurt malcontent unable to accept reality. When the funny thing is, your aforementioned view is the one that really mirrors that. I never said there was a "hive mind," although that's beside the point. I stand by the idea that if he had spent a decade in Chikara and pre-Sinclair ROH that the comments would be more along the line of "the guy is amazing in the ring" and "he puts on great matches" and therefore "they aren't using him right" and "he'd be massively over if not for his yo-yo booking" etc., etc. Because he IS good it the ring, which is what I think fans of indy guys who get to WWE express is what is important to them -- and any failure, from the posts I see, is blamed on the gimmick or the booking for not making use of whoever's great talent. I do remember a lot of resentment from a lot of posters on this forum from his being "pushed down our throats" from almost the day he debuted and a lot of it seemed resentful because he was getting pushed over other people they liked -- be it Ryder or Ziggler or Bryan or whoever. Perhaps I remember this incorrectly. Perhaps I am wrong altogether, and absolutely no one holds the views I have described about the "indy darlings" when they don't get over. If that's the case, hey, you're right. But I truly believe (a) he's more over with live crowds than with the "IWC" in general -- and I"m not saying he's the most over guy on the roster, but I do see crowd reactions to him both when I've seen him live and on TV, and (b) there are some -- who, how many, I have no idea -- who have wanted him to fail from the start for whatever their reasons are, and I happen to believe many of them would react differently if he had an indy background. I don't know what more there is to say about it.
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Post by DrBackflipsHoffman on Nov 14, 2013 22:36:11 GMT -5
Both of you seem to be self aware enough to know that none of this is true, so what do you gain from lying? Other than generating mildly perturbed responses like this? I 100 percent believe that if Del Rio had spent a decade in the indies he would be worshipped on the IWC and there would be daily threads about how the WWE's booking was killing him and how they don't know how to use him. Well yes, but that'd presumably be to do with him having a decade of experience with building up a fanbase across the country/world and having had the freedom to polish his gimmick, skillset and overall ability through those years and having a proven track record of brilliant, world class matches rather than some tin foil hat finger pointing indy conspiracy.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Nov 14, 2013 22:40:20 GMT -5
I 100 percent believe that if Del Rio had spent a decade in the indies he would be worshipped on the IWC and there would be daily threads about how the WWE's booking was killing him and how they don't know how to use him. Well yes, but that'd presumably be to do with him having a decade of experience with building up a fanbase across the country/world and having had the freedom to polish his gimmick, skillset and overall ability through those years and having a proven track record of brilliant, world class matches rather than some tin foil hat finger pointing indy conspiracy. so Mexican wrestling promotions are lesser than American indies?
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BigBadZ
Grimlock
The Rumors Are All True
Posts: 13,923
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Post by BigBadZ on Nov 14, 2013 22:43:24 GMT -5
How could there be threads if the WWE is booking him strong though? If he was popular, and he deserved his perpetual push, wouldn't these (imaginary, hive-mind)) people be happy? The entire point of the Del Rio criticism stems from the fact that there is no justification for his push. It has zero to do with him not being an IWC favorite. That just makes it seem like all the valid criticisms are made up and contrived to suit the strange, misfit view of some butt-hurt malcontent unable to accept reality. When the funny thing is, your aforementioned view is the one that really mirrors that. I never said there was a "hive mind," although that's beside the point. I stand by the idea that if he had spent a decade in Chikara and pre-Sinclair ROH that the comments would be more along the line of "the guy is amazing in the ring" and "he puts on great matches" and therefore "they aren't using him right" and "he'd be massively over if not for his yo-yo booking" etc., etc. Because he IS good it the ring, which is what I think fans of indy guys who get to WWE express is what is important to them -- and any failure, from the posts I see, is blamed on the gimmick or the booking for not making use of whoever's great talent. I do remember a lot of resentment from a lot of posters on this forum from his being "pushed down our throats" from almost the day he debuted and a lot of it seemed resentful because he was getting pushed over other people they liked -- be it Ryder or Ziggler or Bryan or whoever.lol or maybe those guys have a fanbase that want to see them over Del Rio and not because they spent years in ROH or Chikara... because Ryder and Ziggler didn't
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Nov 14, 2013 22:45:41 GMT -5
Well yes, but that'd presumably be to do with him having a decade of experience with building up a fanbase across the country/world and having had the freedom to polish his gimmick, skillset and overall ability through those years and having a proven track record of brilliant, world class matches rather than some tin foil hat finger pointing indy conspiracy. so Mexican wrestling promotions are lesser than American indies? His work in Mexico and Japan clearly can't compare to people who work "all across the world."
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Post by DrBackflipsHoffman on Nov 14, 2013 22:46:12 GMT -5
Well yes, but that'd presumably be to do with him having a decade of experience with building up a fanbase across the country/world and having had the freedom to polish his gimmick, skillset and overall ability through those years and having a proven track record of brilliant, world class matches rather than some tin foil hat finger pointing indy conspiracy. so Mexican wrestling promotions are lesser than American indies? No, but compared to American indies and Japanese shows, Lucha traditionally tends to get less attention from the kind of fan who religiously follows independents and footage is harder to get hold of. You get the occasional anomaly in terms of hype ala somebody like Sin Cara who had huge hype from everybody, and Samuray Del Sol who got himself onto US shows and thus got a few more people excited when he was signed.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Nov 14, 2013 22:48:32 GMT -5
People are really using the word "hivemind" and talking about how smarks only respect guys that toil away on the indie scene?
Brah...
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Nov 14, 2013 22:51:01 GMT -5
I never said there was a "hive mind," although that's beside the point. I stand by the idea that if he had spent a decade in Chikara and pre-Sinclair ROH that the comments would be more along the line of "the guy is amazing in the ring" and "he puts on great matches" and therefore "they aren't using him right" and "he'd be massively over if not for his yo-yo booking" etc., etc. Because he IS good it the ring, which is what I think fans of indy guys who get to WWE express is what is important to them -- and any failure, from the posts I see, is blamed on the gimmick or the booking for not making use of whoever's great talent. I do remember a lot of resentment from a lot of posters on this forum from his being "pushed down our throats" from almost the day he debuted and a lot of it seemed resentful because he was getting pushed over other people they liked -- be it Ryder or Ziggler or Bryan or whoever.lol or maybe those guys have a fanbase that want to see them over Del Rio and not because they spent years in ROH or Chikara... because Ryder and Ziggler didn't I fully realize that and included them on purpose for that reason -- I guess I should have explained that sentence better by adding "so perhaps it is not ONLY a pro-indy mind set" -- which is what I meant by the "or whoever." I was relating it to the thread title about the IWC, not just to the pro-indy crowd.
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Nov 14, 2013 23:01:26 GMT -5
there are some -- who, how many, I have no idea -- who have wanted him to fail from the start for whatever their reasons are There are definitely guys who I've seen that mentality applied to around these forums right after their WWE debut, but I genuinely don't remember Alberto being one of them. I know his initial vignettes were derided as boring, but after he came in and beat Rey clean in his first match, I recall most people around here really getting behind him. Just some scattered recollections, but I recall when he interrupted HBK on RAW right after Shawn's Hall of Fame induction was announced, people thought it was cool that Del Rio was getting the rub of appearing in a segment with Shawn. When he won the Rumble, there was a certain amount of inevitable "Punk should've won" complaining, but I don't remember people blaming Del Rio personally or saying he didn't deserve the spot. Sometime before Wrestlemania, he wrestled Cena on RAW, and I remember some "This will be a future Wrestlemania main event" comments (how naive we were back then, thinking WWE would ever put on a Wrestlemania main event without any Attitude Era names involved). And there was definitely complaining after Edge's retirement that he should've put Del Rio over at Wrestlemania, even suggestions that the only reason he didn't was backstage politicing... Maybe if I have enough time, I'll try to think over the trajectory of when Del Rio went from being reasonably well-regarded around here to his current state of being near-universally loathed.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 23:20:56 GMT -5
It's definitely this "more aggressive than ever" beating the same 3 midcarders every week shit that makes people on here hate him. It really began with his feud with Sheamus. Sheamus beat him at every PPV, and in between PPVs he did nothing but try to get his heat back by beating Kofi or Zack Ryder. And it's been the same damn thing ever since, but now his music sucks and he doesn't have Ricardo or the cool cars or anything.
If there's one thing the IWC comes together to hate, it's repetitive, predictable booking. Alberto Del Rio is the poster boy for this in the last 2 years.
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Post by tekkenguy on Nov 14, 2013 23:21:13 GMT -5
I think the IWC turned on Del Rio after his two WWE Title reigns. The hatred never really peaked until his feud with Sheamus.
He seems to have pulled a reverse R-Truth. They spent 2 1/2 years with the same gimmick, turned for the first time, got a chance to refresh their gimmick, but turned back in 6 months' time and slowly transitioned back to their original character.
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Nov 14, 2013 23:32:25 GMT -5
Predictability is definitely a major factor in it. He wasn't despised yet the way he is now, but IIRC there was a growing ambivalence to Del Rio on here through 2011, after he got sent to RAW. First people were just taking it for granted that we'd get Cena vs. Del Rio as the Summerslam main event (not pleased or displeased by it, just accepting it), then he did commentary on some Rey Mysterio match right after he draft and everyone was all "This feud AGAIN?" but it never materialized into anything. Then Del Rio won the MitB the way EVERYONE knew he would, and it was such an "Okay, whatever" moment on a show that was otherwise all about setting up a game-changing new direction for WWE. By the time he won the title at Summerslam, we'd gotten a whole host of dynamic new characters in face Punk, face Sheamus, heel R-Truth, heel Mark Henry while Del Rio was unchanged from his debut.
But he wasn't hated yet. People were starting to complain that all his promos were repetitive and the same "destiny" crap over and over, and it started getting pointed out that his reactions from the live crowds were pretty muted and Ricardo was more over, but still, people were complaining that it was unfair that Punk WASN'T getting to feud with him right after Summerslam.
So Del Rio buggered around in the WWE title scene for the rest of the year and was, like Miz, sort of accepted as a fixture in there but not a very interesting one. Then he got injured and came back after Wrestlemania to challenge Sheamus...
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Post by xxshoyuweeniexx on Nov 14, 2013 23:33:28 GMT -5
Maybe if I have enough time, I'll try to think over the trajectory of when Del Rio went from being reasonably well-regarded around here to his current state of being near-universally loathed. I thought about it for a little while, and think it was these three things: Strike 1: ADR cashing in on CM Punk. He literally doused the whole Summer of Punk angle, along with Kevin Nash randomly being in it too for some reason, and booted Punk out of the WWE title scene when he was red hot until Survior Series. This one speaks for itself, I never got the logic behind this one. Anway... He didn't do a whole lot after he lost the title, with Henry/Show/Orton/Bryan ruling the roost in the WHC title scene, so he was just sort of there until... Strike 2: ADR vs Sheamus. This was about the point that the WHC title matches started to have no story. It was just match after match with the only thing selling the PPV was was Del Rio beating up Zack Ryder and Kofi on the Wheel of Aggression. This is when it got really noticible that they would literally book him to do the same things over and over and over again. Combine that with losing his car, his scarf, his pyro and fun persona he had at the start, and this feud going on for 6 god damn months with the exact same result each time, yeah. After the neverending Sheamus stuff, he dicked around with Orton over being the real Apex Predator, AKA "have Randy beat you up so we can feature him but not too much cause he has two strikes". He then had a random face turn against 3MB, and honestly things were looking up. His stuff with Big Show wasn't that bad, and it looked like Face Del Rio was an improvement. Even with Swagger blowing his future up in smoke, the right guy won at Mania and it looked like he might be gaining some traction. Until... Strike 3: The Rise of Dolph Ziggler. Say what you will about the guy, but that post Mania crowd popped huge for Ziggler cashing in and winning. His pure hard work and talent just shined a whole lot brighter over Del Rio's Mexican Lex Luger gimmick. People were just waiting to see what kind of great matches and how Ziggler's character would finally evolve against his opponents. So, afer Ziggler's concussion was over, they fought at uh, whatever it was, and the double turn happened. People were weary, but they had hope that Ziggler, like the brave proud face he was, would get the WHC back from the evil Del Rio. I mean logically, he'd have to get it back right? He had a concussion, so he never got a chance to do things during he reign (At least Swagger got the Eagle and his dad and stuff during his reign), so of course he'd get a chance right? Wrong. And I think that just about brings us up to where we are today. It's was just a bad set of circumstances that led him to where he is now. He's not a bad wrestler, it's just the things he was involved in were waaaay beyond his scope, yet it was still pushed just as hard or almost as hard as the guys he was overshadowing and the repetitiveness of his booking (wheel of aggresion, win/lose ppv, repeat).
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EyeofTyr
Hank Scorpio
Strange and Mystical
Posts: 5,744
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Post by EyeofTyr on Nov 14, 2013 23:42:46 GMT -5
I loved Alberto when he first came in, I loved the hype segments prior to his debut, his debut, his feud with Mysterio. Namely because whether he was helping with it or whoever was writing it had a clear direction in mind that he clicked with. There were so many little touches that put him above the standard WWE heel but not, mercifully, getting into the "cool heel" gray area.
Then he went for the WHC and that's when things started to get muddy. The little touches from prior, his little mannerisms, the little traits he had done were stripped away from him in favor of talk of destiny. I know everybody harps on it now, but the first one was great, I remember loving it, and I remember alot of people liking it too. It showed promise of a guy that could be worth the investment of making him a top tier player so quickly.
But then it wasn't just the little things they stripped away from him, more and more they tied his hands & more and more the things that defined his character were removed. His promos became worse and worse, and partially it was clear why, the wrestler himself seemed unhappy. Which was why it was no surprise when he was interviewed by a magazine in Mexico he said he was unhappy being a heel and wanted to be a man of the people again.
Which, if you notice, it did seem like some new life was breathed into him when he became a babyface. But that seemingly quickly died out too and now he's back to being a heel.
Another major issue I have is that outside of the Mysterio situation, he hasn't been away from a title for any considerable amount of time with a memorable or character defining arcs. Even John Cena & Randy Orton have had noticeable amounts of time away from the top titles. Name any other big player and the same applies to them, Punk, Show, Daniel, Kane, 'Taker, Sheamus, Miz, Ryback, Ziggler and the list goes on.
But not Del Rio. He just keeps being put right back in there. And, it's tiring to watch after a while. Nevermind it makes his character all the more murky because it feels like they've thrown him even more into auto-pilot with it.
Del Rio, much like alot of people, is a victim of lazy writing & booking. He's shown in the past when he's given something to work with, he can do it.
Also if what little we've seen and more so when we've heard is true, dude's got a bit of an attitude problem in a similar vein as Randy. So, wouldn't surprise me that might be part of the issue too.
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Post by Raskovnik on Nov 14, 2013 23:58:41 GMT -5
I love Del Rio and think he's one of the best talents the WWE has ever had. He was an awesome face, having a fantastic feud and putting on great matches with Big Show, and I think he's an even better heel considering a bunch of people hate him but they say it's "go-away heat", which I don't even think is real, by the way, because you're SUPPOSED to dislike the f***ing heel.
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Post by The Portable Stove on Nov 15, 2013 0:08:50 GMT -5
Thinking about it, I can't imagine anyone in any company past or present, that should be immediately pushed to the moon straight out of the gate. Everyone, from Austin to Rocky to H, made a slow progression to the main event. The only one who didn't upon coming to the WWE was Flair, who had been main eventing for nearly ten straight years for the competition.
Even Sheamus, who won the WWE title two months into being on RAW, spent the next year or so in the midcard (aside from the month where he won the title back and was hammered back into the midcard anyway). Yet, we're supposed to believe that Alberto Del Rio, who had spent a few months feuding against Rey Mysterio (out of the gate, even), should spend the next three years hovering around both shows' main event? And good lord, they just keep piling it on. He's a two time WWE champion, two time World Heavyweight Champion, Royal Rumble winner, MitB winner. And you know that if King of the Ring had stuck around, he would have won that at least once.
I don't care if he's CM Punk or Kevin Steen or Maven Huffman. He hasn't done a single thing to make me believe that he belongs at or anywhere near the top, and upon creative's running out of ideas on him, they just keep his AGGRESSIVE~~ streak going. Maybe if he keeps the Cross Armbreaker on Kofi for another minute, he'll be able to beat Cena.
(And no, I didn't buy Wade Barrett winning the WWE Championship a few months into his WWE career as a plausibility or a good move either.)
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