Chip
Hank Scorpio
Slam Jam Death.
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Post by Chip on Apr 16, 2014 12:19:40 GMT -5
I've always put down Cena's character inconsistencies to writer changes. With seemingly how often writers go in and out I can't imagine very many have a solid idea of who Cena is, let alone would be able to explain it to a new writer.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Apr 16, 2014 16:21:46 GMT -5
The only time anything related to Cena would make any sense, is if he took a bad fall over the top rope, and when he got up, his right arm was missing, and the shoulder stump would have wires and sparks coming out of it and Cena looks at the camera, opens his mouth and says "Seven-Nine-One-Four....Technical Errorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....." in an electronically distorted voice, before being attended to by technicians. See, it turns out that he IS a "prototype". WWE tried to develop a fully functional android to be their perfect flagbearer. It would explain why he follows any orders robotically without any hesitation and why his injuries "heal" so quickly. That's why he's inconsistent, because questioning his actions would be beyond the limits of his programming. Something like that, though I'd say not quite. Cena definitely is "The Prototype", and never stopped being such. He's meant to be the fusion of everything (even when two or more of those things are at odds with each other) that is the supposed 'ideal' WWE Standard Bearer. -He's the Workout Warrrior whose trained his whole life for this (HHH). -He's the Lantern Jawed Marine (Slaughter). -He's the Indomitable Superhero (Hogan). -He's yet somehow still the Underdog who has to overcome the odds (Bret). -He's the corny jokester (Rock). -He's bad photoshop man (Jericho) -He's the one who stands up to The Man (Austin). -He's Mr. Feats of Strength (Luger). And he's buried himself so deep in all of that, that nobody will ever see the man inside the machine. Hogan was both the superhero and the underdog. He had people betray him constantly so he'd be in two or three on one situations at least. Bundy broke his ribs. Andre was Andre. Earthquake nearly retired him. Undertaker had basically been completely indestructible for an entire year.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Apr 16, 2014 16:36:56 GMT -5
The only time anything related to Cena would make any sense, is if he took a bad fall over the top rope, and when he got up, his right arm was missing, and the shoulder stump would have wires and sparks coming out of it and Cena looks at the camera, opens his mouth and says "Seven-Nine-One-Four....Technical Errorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....." in an electronically distorted voice, before being attended to by technicians. See, it turns out that he IS a "prototype". WWE tried to develop a fully functional android to be their perfect flagbearer. It would explain why he follows any orders robotically without any hesitation and why his injuries "heal" so quickly. That's why he's inconsistent, because questioning his actions would be beyond the limits of his programming. Cena's gonna have to save Sting from Evolution by busting him out of a cage?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 16:39:40 GMT -5
Cena's gonna have to save Sting from Evolution by busting him out of a cage? That just made me wonder something. A Sting / Cena tag team. Does Cena turn on Sting, therefore turning heel, or does he manage to resist the urge to betray Sting?
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Apr 16, 2014 16:42:20 GMT -5
He turns on Sting early in the match, but then saves him at the finish, preserving both Sting being eternally betrayed, and John being inconsistent.
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Post by Hit Girl on Apr 16, 2014 16:45:16 GMT -5
Selling an injury is a quantifiable detail that tips the odds against the hero, thus building the drama as they overcome it.
The audience is constantly told that Cena is the underdog despite not having a significant disadvantage, and no, numerical disadvantage doesn't count, because every time he's outnumbered, he wins anyway, and it's done relatively easy, and he rarely sells injuries convincingly.
Hogan's feud with Andre wasn't an underdog or superhero story. It was a personal matter of a betrayed friendship, and he lost to the Undertaker due to outside interference and distraction.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Apr 16, 2014 16:50:22 GMT -5
Man, those 2005 or so handicap matches against Cena were BRUTAL. Dude was impervious.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Apr 16, 2014 16:56:30 GMT -5
Selling an injury is a quantifiable detail that tips the odds against the hero, thus building the drama as they overcome it. The audience is constantly told that Cena is the underdog despite not having a significant disadvantage, and no, numerical disadvantage doesn't count, because every time he's outnumbered, he wins anyway, and it's done relatively easy, and he rarely sells injuries convincingly. Hogan's feud with Andre wasn't an underdog or superhero story. It was a personal matter of a betrayed friendship, and he lost to the Undertaker due to outside interference and distraction. I believe on Hogan vs Andre Hogan was considered the underdog in a betting line sort of way. ANd I'm talking on the lead in to Taker/Hogan, not how the match ended
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Tony Schiavontay
Dennis Stamp
This is the greatest post in the history of this board!
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Post by Tony Schiavontay on Apr 16, 2014 17:04:54 GMT -5
Cena comes out and tells lame, unfunny jokes and shows lame, unfunny Photoshops of the Wyatts (though their reaction of completely no-selling it was great) before challenging Bray to a cage match so they can wrestle without Harper and Rowan getting involved, even though their interference at Mania was completely ineffective since Cena still won clean.
What a shitty promo. I let out an audible "uggghhhh" at every sentence.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 17:08:20 GMT -5
What I also love is Mr Be A Star, Make A Wish saying he doesn't judge people then proceeds to immediately mock the Wyatt's for their appearance - all the while Wyatt is making the exact point that Cena does this constantly and he is a hypocrites and a monster.
I have no idea if they are trying to make Wyatt look like the honest face and Cena a blind hypocritical heel but that's how it looks. Maybe it's just me, I dunno.
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Post by Hit Girl on Apr 16, 2014 17:13:28 GMT -5
Well, he wasn't, since betting was not the driving force behind the story, which was based on Hogan feeling betrayed by a man he considered his friend and mentor.
Which would be based on very little fact.
Undertaker debuted a year earlier. On that very same night, Undertaker was eliminated, while Hogan was victorious twice as the sole survivor of his team, and with the Warrior in the final survivor match. At the Royal Rumble 1991, Undertaker was eliminated again, by LOD, while Hogan won the match. At Wrestlemania VII, Hogan basically ended the Gulf War, while Taker began his epic streak by surviving the onslaught of the 47 year old Jimmy Snuka for a pulsating 4 minutes and 20 seconds (RVD's favourite match). Hogan then travelled to the UK to defeat Slaughter again at UK Rampage (I think the Undertaker was detained at the airport, because his urn couldn't get through Her Majesty's Customs Service), and at Summerslam 1991, Hogan and Warrior defeated Iraq again, while the Undertaker I believe was attending a wedding reception. The Undertaker then went back to the UK where he beat the mighty Hacksaw Jim Duggan.
Under no reasonable circumstances could anyone argue that the Undertaker was seen as the favourite for that match at the Gravest Challenge. Practically all the momentum was with Hogan, and Undertaker only won with the assistance of Ric Flair.
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Essential1
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Essential1 on Apr 16, 2014 17:20:00 GMT -5
Cena's promos are about as believable as Michael Cole's laughter.
I can't stand the way he changes his voice from well educated Superman to African American.
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Post by angryfan on Apr 16, 2014 17:48:47 GMT -5
Here's my problem, or at least what it's developed into. Cena CAN make people look like a million bucks, his match with Cesaro went miles into making the man a potential main event player in the eyes of fans that hadn't bought into him. This promo with Wyatt, with jokes and photoshops, did the opposite of that. Everything leading up to the Mania match was done right, it made Wyatt look like a main eventer and a threat, it made him seem intimidating and legitimate.
This leaves me thinking, "OK, so the story is, Cena won and now he's not afraid or intimidated anymore, which means Wyatt is already done as a main eventer".
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Post by Andrew is Good on Apr 16, 2014 18:03:40 GMT -5
I just got back from vacation but heard about the promo and how it may've been one of the worst promos John Cena has ever done. One comparison was said on Review a Raw, and I forget the exact comparison, but it's like watching interaction between a character from House of Cards and a character from Care Bears. One is hip, new, fresh and appeals to a large audience. One is old, tired, and appeals simply to kids. Unless they bring it up that Bray Wyatt really has turned Cena into a monster, considering he was taking shots at Bray's dead sister, and that Bray really has gotten into his head and he's trying everything to simply ignore it, then it was without question one of the worst promos in pro wrestling in awhile.
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Apr 16, 2014 18:40:14 GMT -5
I just got back from vacation but heard about the promo and how it may've been one of the worst promos John Cena has ever done. One comparison was said on Review a Raw, and I forget the exact comparison, but it's like watching interaction between a character from House of Cards and a character from Care Bears. One is hip, new, fresh and appeals to a large audience. One is old, tired, and appeals simply to kids. Unless they bring it up that Bray Wyatt really has turned Cena into a monster, considering he was taking shots at Bray's dead sister, and that Bray really has gotten into his head and he's trying everything to simply ignore it, then it was without question one of the worst promos in pro wrestling in awhile. This commentary by Brandon Stroud is likely speaking your language: uproxx.com/sports/2014/04/the-best-and-worst-of-wwe-raw-41414-rising-above-hate-with-photoshop/4/
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Post by Apricots And A Pear Tree on Apr 16, 2014 19:25:46 GMT -5
I just got back from vacation but heard about the promo and how it may've been one of the worst promos John Cena has ever done. One comparison was said on Review a Raw, and I forget the exact comparison, but it's like watching interaction between a character from House of Cards and a character from Care Bears. One is hip, new, fresh and appeals to a large audience. One is old, tired, and appeals simply to kids. Unless they bring it up that Bray Wyatt really has turned Cena into a monster, considering he was taking shots at Bray's dead sister, and that Bray really has gotten into his head and he's trying everything to simply ignore it, then it was without question one of the worst promos in pro wrestling in awhile. I don't think she is actually his sister....or real.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Apr 16, 2014 19:31:32 GMT -5
I just got back from vacation but heard about the promo and how it may've been one of the worst promos John Cena has ever done. One comparison was said on Review a Raw, and I forget the exact comparison, but it's like watching interaction between a character from House of Cards and a character from Care Bears. One is hip, new, fresh and appeals to a large audience. One is old, tired, and appeals simply to kids. Unless they bring it up that Bray Wyatt really has turned Cena into a monster, considering he was taking shots at Bray's dead sister, and that Bray really has gotten into his head and he's trying everything to simply ignore it, then it was without question one of the worst promos in pro wrestling in awhile. I don't think she is actually his sister....or real. Well, like, the character. I do believe Sister Abigail was talked about in NXT and in a few WWE promos. I always thought it was implied that Abigail was Bray's sister and had died.
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Post by Apricots And A Pear Tree on Apr 16, 2014 19:32:17 GMT -5
I don't think she is actually his sister....or real. Well, like, the character. I do believe Sister Abigail was talked about in NXT and in a few WWE promos. I always thought it was implied that Abigail was Bray's sister and had died. I think she is supposed to be a nun.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Apr 16, 2014 20:54:28 GMT -5
Well, like, the character. I do believe Sister Abigail was talked about in NXT and in a few WWE promos. I always thought it was implied that Abigail was Bray's sister and had died. I think she is supposed to be a nun. Even still, it was always implied that she was dead, and obviously meant something to Bray, whom Cena was making fun of.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Apr 16, 2014 20:58:33 GMT -5
You two have calmed down a bit but let's stop with the "Who the hell are you" comments. You can argue a point and get emotional without sniping at each other. I wasn't offended by his phrasing. It had little to do with my statement and accomplished nothing in countering anything I said. It's not a personal gripe to me, but one of logic. I simply want him to prove WHY he thinks Cena's character is not inconsistent. Not his personal views and wants to justify it to fit his own constructed narrative. But actual constructive, reasonable, logical proof that debunks the stance and vindicates the character. That's it. That is, as always, the crux of our differences. I state something. He disagrees. I (or someone else) provide examples, and he does not provide a lick of logical proof to negate or dispute it, yet continues to argue from a flawed and beaten base anyway. The truth is, the whole issue and argument(s) could have been avoided had he simply said he doesn't care that Cena is inconsistent and that he just enjoys the character as is. That is at least a subjective opinion that cannot be challenged or bested. Anything else has been countered many times in different threads by many people. Yet, the cycle begins again. And again. And again. I've explained to you why I think his actions are logical. You come back that my opinion shows others are illogical. I could say I enjoy the character despite him being inconsistent, but that would be a lie because I don't find him inconsistent. Cena makes sense to me. I don't think he's very funny, men dressed up as women is only funny if it involves Monty Python, but what he's doing with it makes sense to me. Since people dislike my comparisons to wrestling from other media, I'll use one from wrestling. Remember when the Hart Dynasty lost to Show-Miz and as a consequence Bret had to call Show-Miz the greatest team ever? He did so and then pointed out he could say anything, because just saying something didn't make it true. Cena calls bullshit on people and I like that. He seems to respect them in the ring and until we get a heel who runs away crying because someone disregards his gimmick the in ring action matter more to me. And I strongly disagree with your opinion about Eve and Cena. It basically says Eve has no responsibility for her actions Taker was eliminated by countout because he basically walked out to protect his manager. TV wise Taker got the better of the Ultimate Warrior and locking him in the casket. And a week later Hogan only won by cheating himself. Also Hit girl, saying what should have happened is not the same as writing fanfic and I think a numbers game should always be viable for making an underdog. You match up two people and change nothing then sure the results should generally be the same, but if you've got people on the outside then maybe this time they successfully use a weapon to turn the tide I don't think the photoshop promo has ever been good. This was up there with Cena's ramblih Star Wars promo as among his absolute corniest. Also about his consistency, remember how furious Cena got with Del Rio for using in his Money in the Bank on Punk? What the hell was that about? Why wasn't he frothing at the mouth in a similar way towards Orton last year? I don't think he ever mentioned it in their last feud. The weirdest one wasn't even Del Rio, but a while before that when he just came out and wrecked the holy bejesus out of Jack Swagger for no apparent reason whatsoever. It wouldn't take much to square the circle with Cena and make his character make at least some amount of sense, but they'll never go the direction they'd have to go (ie : showing him start to crack under the pressure of always having to be "everything to everyone"), because it would prove those that call him a phony (even if "phony" is somewhat harsh in its connotation, in this context) correct. WWE has been having Cena pull the "everything to everyone" act for the longest time now, and even if it's who Cena wants to be (even in his outside the ring life), it's not a persona that resonates with people in any way, because outside a very controlled environment like pro wrestling (and to an extent, even inside), it's just not a natural human response. So even if this is the sort of person Cena wants to be, even if in his own eyes, it's not 'fake' or 'phony', it's still an affectation. A never letting his guard down and letting anyone see past his emotional/mental defenses. A soulless automaton with nothing beyond the show. I may be getting some weeks out of order but I'm pretty sure he beat down Swagger a week after Swagger won the US title from Ryder. And of course at that point Ryder had a broken back from Kane attacking him because he was Cena's friend. So it was sort of like Hogan coming back to take on Money Inc. when they smashed Brutus's face in. And I'm surprised that it doesn't resonate with more people. Surely I can't be the only one who wishes to just mock people who piss me off and show them how stupid I think they're behaving, but doesn't feel they can. No one works in sales? Maybe things like the photoshops are dumb, but I wasn't a big fan of the battle raps either. The F-U was named from a wheelchair in a battle rap as a shot at Brock Lesnar after Lesnar hurt him with an F-5 into the ringpost. That's serious? That's real? About the only way to rip into someone that someone wouldn't find dumb would be a direct verbal teardown that really does call the gimmick stupid and more.
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