DjZonk
Don Corleone
Where's my cat?
Posts: 1,325
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Post by DjZonk on Dec 26, 2014 7:39:20 GMT -5
Love how they always say they never took shots at WCW and just concentrated on their own show. What a load of shit. WWE as an orginisation must really be headed by some insecure people.
We had the Billionaire Ted skits which they went to great lengths to produced, and were hyped at the start of their shows amongst their lead angles. Hukster and Nacho were also part of the Free For All - the last ditch attempt to get last minute buys for their biggest show of 1996. No reference to the fact they negotiated to get Hogan back in 1997. Gillberg... I could go on and on...
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Post by cabbageboy on Dec 26, 2014 11:39:16 GMT -5
Or how about Jim Cornette's rants where he went off on the various idiocies of WCW? Or Jim Ross' various comments during Raw where he would bury WCW? The irony of Bischoff is that not only did he not succeed in putting the WWF out of business, he basically handed them the various tools to beat WCW in the long run. Bischoff handed them Austin, Foley, HHH, etc. WCW also handed Vince The Undertaker, although that predated Bischoff.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2014 14:24:06 GMT -5
Yea, I reckon we get Russo next week. This episode wasn't really about mistakes but really about the rocky Flair/Bischoff relationship Yeah, they kinda glossed over 1999, although from a WCW standpoint, that's not a bad idea.
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Post by Slammy Award-Winning Cannibal on Dec 27, 2014 4:46:08 GMT -5
Favourite part of this ep was near the end when current WWE superstars were reflecting on WCW getting stale by having Hogan/Flair & Hogan/Piper matches.
Cesaro: "People were tired of seeing the same people uh... in uh.. main events over and over."
You could see him stumbling and you KNOW he was having Vietnam-like flashbacks of losing to Cena.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Dec 27, 2014 6:24:37 GMT -5
Favourite part of this ep was near the end when current WWE superstars were reflecting on WCW getting stale by having Hogan/Flair & Hogan/Piper matches. Cesaro: "People were tired of seeing the same people uh... in uh.. main events over and over." You could see him stumbling and you KNOW he was having Vietnam-like flashbacks of losing to Cena. Of all the people to say that, it had to be Cesaro. I don't know if he necessarily was having flashbacks to Cena, because there's a good possiblity that this stuff was getting taped when he was Antonio Cesaro, US champion that could speak five languages. Long before working Cena was even someone they would consider having Cesaro work. That's how long ago they have been holding on to this footage.
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Steveweiser
Dalek
Mickie Mickie You're So Fine... Hey Mickie!
THE GRAPS
Posts: 50,249
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Post by Steveweiser on Jan 4, 2015 18:55:59 GMT -5
Description for the new episode airing on Tuesday...
"Backstage politics, corporate mergers, and questionable decisions would doom sports entertainment's former powerhouse."
So maybe not just Russo but the way WCW was run from when Bischoff left the first time in mid-99.
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Post by Dave the Dave on Jan 6, 2015 20:17:28 GMT -5
Mainly about Russo.
Wwe praises him, WCW guys shit on him. Go figure.
Bret Hart pissed me off. "Russo didn't wrestle. He can't tell wrestlers what do. He didn't know."
Really? Prior to taking over, where did VKM wrestle? He seemed to know.
Those guys never gave Russo a chance. He's a real shit talker but I do think he got the short end of the stick.
Jericho said everyone with passion left WCW. Declarative statements are hard. Booker, Kidman, Sting, Rey. No passion hacks.
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Post by Dave the Dave on Jan 6, 2015 21:08:01 GMT -5
Sorry to keep going. JBL said Russo was the reason WCW bankrupted. That's an oversimplification.
Also McMahon kind of buried Russo big towards the end.
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fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
FAN Idol All-Star: FAN Idol Season X and *Gavel* 2x Judges' Throwdown winner
Tribe has spoken for 2024 Mets
Posts: 38,990
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Post by fw91 on Jan 6, 2015 22:35:04 GMT -5
so the bash at the beach 2000 incident was real?
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 41,929
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Jan 7, 2015 0:13:44 GMT -5
so the bash at the beach 2000 incident was real? It was a work, that became a worked-shoot, that became a shoot. Hogan was cool with everything until Russo's promo burying him later in the show, that's when he filed suit. At least, I think so, no one really seems to know who knew what was a work, what was a shoot and who knew what. You can't file real lawsuits over a work, that's all I know.
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Zach
Trap-Jaw
Posts: 368
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Post by Zach on Jan 7, 2015 10:04:46 GMT -5
At least they didn't resort to the old "WCW closed because Bischoff was an egomaniac who gave everyone creative control!" crap
WCW folded beacuse AOL/Time Warner didn't want to air wrestling anymore, period. Even though WCW sucked in 2000, it was still their highest rated show on TNT at the time.
BTW did someone make it a requirment for EVERY episode to remind us how Hall and Nash left WWF to go to WCW and form the NWO along with a clip of Hogan saying "you can call this the New World Organization of wrestling brother!" ?? We are on episode 19...WE GET IT
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Post by Stuart Baggs The Brand on Jan 7, 2015 15:25:56 GMT -5
That was actually somewhat of a good episode. If anything an hour wasn't enough to explore a lot of the content. I felt that Vince came accross as too critical of Russo at the end. The fact is that although McMahon may have moulded the content to make it work, the raw ideas were Russo's and without him, McMahon wouldn't have had a clue with regards to pop-culture, modern thinking etc.
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Post by cabbageboy on Jan 7, 2015 18:10:20 GMT -5
Definitely. I wish this one had been an entire documentary. The whole story of Dec. 1999/Jan. 2000 in WCW is a textbook example of how NOT to manage a crisis situation. They never mentioned Bill Busch by name but his tenure as WCW VP was the biggest executive train wreck in wrestling history. It's hard to think of a single positive move he made, from hiring Russo in the first place, to demoting Russo for Sullivan (which was discussed!), to releasing all of the Radicals, etc.
AOL/TW not wanting wrestling is a bit simplistic. WCW was down to a 2.0 rating for Nitro by early 2001 and Thunder was even less. Add in that WCW lost 60 million dollars in 2000 alone and you have to ask: Why exactly would they want WCW? If WCW had made 60 million dollars in 2000 I would think they would have fit AOL/TW's profile just fine.
The bigger question is this: Why didn't Bischoff and Co. have a Plan B for a TV deal?
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Jan 8, 2015 2:56:35 GMT -5
Definitely. I wish this one had been an entire documentary. The whole story of Dec. 1999/Jan. 2000 in WCW is a textbook example of how NOT to manage a crisis situation. They never mentioned Bill Busch by name but his tenure as WCW VP was the biggest executive train wreck in wrestling history. It's hard to think of a single positive move he made, from hiring Russo in the first place, to demoting Russo for Sullivan (which was discussed!), to releasing all of the Radicals, etc. AOL/TW not wanting wrestling is a bit simplistic. WCW was down to a 2.0 rating for Nitro by early 2001 and Thunder was even less. Add in that WCW lost 60 million dollars in 2000 alone and you have to ask: Why exactly would they want WCW? If WCW had made 60 million dollars in 2000 I would think they would have fit AOL/TW's profile just fine. The bigger question is this: Why didn't Bischoff and Co. have a Plan B for a TV deal? I don't think it ever crossed Bischoff's mind that AOL/TW would axe the timeslots. They figured if AOL/TW would sell the rest of WCW, that they would have no problems accepting money for the television slots, especially since even WCW in its dilapidated state was a bigger ratings draw than anything else on the networks. But, the wrong executive got to the deal at the wrong time, and that was it.
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Post by thetower52 on Jan 8, 2015 20:31:09 GMT -5
Lol f***ing hogan saying he never used his creative control clause ever before HAHAHA
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MiLB Fan
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,386
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Post by MiLB Fan on Jan 8, 2015 20:47:38 GMT -5
This Tuesday's series finale is called "Life After Wartime."
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Post by Saul Goodman on Jan 8, 2015 20:49:00 GMT -5
I am sick of the love affair for Vince McMahon on this program. He is not a creative genius like they claim he is. Two out of the three people that made the attitude era popular, were two wrestlers that he saw nothing in when he signed them(Austin and Foley). The only reason he pushed them was because his back was forced to the wall and he had no other choice. Hall and Nash left so he had to push Austin, Hart left and HBK got injured so he had to push Foley and the Rock. All McMahon had was good luck and and wrestlers that believed in themselves since they had no other option to make money in wrestling.
This program also makes it look like that Vince made no mistakes and the only reason WCW had any success is because WCW took his ideas. Well, for awhile WCW did take his ideas but used them in a lot better way than WWF was using them at the time.
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Post by cabbageboy on Jan 8, 2015 23:29:47 GMT -5
I'll agree that Austin was meant to just be a hand to have around, but I disagree on Foley. Sure, Vince saw nothing in him for the previous 5 years, but by 1996 when he debuted as Mankind I think Vince legit wanted to push the guy. You don't bring a guy in and feud him with Undertaker and have him go over a few times and give him a title shot at HBK (where he didn't really lose) if you see nothing in someone.
Here's a serious question: Did any of the guys Vince lost really matter? As in who exactly was on top of their game and drawing money? Nash was in total jobbing on the way out mode in his entire 1996 stint after losing the title. What exactly would he have even done if he had stayed? Hall was already falling apart and I believe was suspended for a failed drug test in early 1996. Bret left on a hiatus for most of 1996 and got hurt some in 1997. Was he really worth keeping at a huge salary? Lex Luger's major push was long over by Sept. 1995 and he spent most of 1994-95 treading water and going nowhere.
This show acts like WCW stole guys like Hogan and Savage but doesn't seem to grasp that both guys needed a change of scenery by 1994. Hogan hadn't even been in the WWF for over a year, and Savage spent most of the last 2 years of his WWF career announcing and maybe occasionally wrestling. My point is these guys were bigger pick ups for WCW than they were losses for Vince.
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Post by Racksman on Jan 9, 2015 3:48:00 GMT -5
Here's a serious question: Did any of the guys Vince lost really matter? As in who exactly was on top of their game and drawing money? Nash was in total jobbing on the way out mode in his entire 1996 stint after losing the title. What exactly would he have even done if he had stayed? Hall was already falling apart and I believe was suspended for a failed drug test in early 1996. Bret left on a hiatus for most of 1996 and got hurt some in 1997. Was he really worth keeping at a huge salary? Lex Luger's major push was long over by Sept. 1995 and he spent most of 1994-95 treading water and going nowhere. Kevin Nash was in "jobbing mode" as you put it because he had already given his notice to Vince sometime in February. But the fact was, he lost the Rumble match because it was Shawn's year, and he lost to Bret in February to further the feud with the Undertaker, which had already began in December. Diesel cost Taker at the Rumble, Taker cost Diesel at IYH. Then, on the way out, Diesel does the favors for Taker and HBK, both of whom he was close with. Had Diesel stuck around in 1996, I'm sure he would've been just fine. In fact, I think the Diesel we saw from Survivor Series '95 - IYH April '96 was some of the best work in-ring and on-mic of his entire career, and it would've been interesting to see that stretched out longer had he stayed in the WWF. While I totally and truly believe Scott Hall would legitimately fail a drug test during this time period, or any time period, the story I had always read and kind of believed was Razor basically screwed himself by refusing to continue the feud with Goldust. He didn't like the direction of it one bit and at one point had said to somebody in upper management, and I'm quoting this from the book "Sex, Lies & Headlocks", "How's my son going to go to school and deal with the other kids who make fun of him because daddy's on TV wrestling around with a f**?" So essentially, by refusing the feud and the eventual second job he would've done to Goldust to help really establish him, Razor hurt himself and not long after he made that comment, he magically got popped with a drug test. Rumors were rampant that back then, when they tested for coke, weed, etc, top guys like Razor and company either got a pass or at least a head's up. The only things that were mandatory and legitimate then for everybody (and even this I don't believe fully) were the steroid tests because of Vince just recently getting the government off his back in the Fall of '95. Hall's punishment was basically losing the WrestleMania payday, because he was brought back right after WrestleMania to do the job for Vader on his way out with no hype and no build, and was then taken off TV for the rest of his contract. Looking at the house shows he wrestled on in 1996, he was still at the top of the card. I think Razor would've only gotten bigger and would've eventually held the title in some manner. Bret leaving on that hiatus in '96 helped, in part his decision to originally stay with the WWF during the WWF/WCW bidding war for him in the Summer of 1996. Bret had worked a nearly full schedule basically injury free for a good ten year period and the dude deserved all the time off he wanted at that point. If MSJ had never occured, Bret would never have left the WWF and the entire landscape would have been different. Bret's injury in 1997 wasn't for that long and is rather unimportant to this discussion. Luger on the other hand I fully agree with. WWF really never quite got what to do with Luger and at the one and only point they got him over and he was hot, they failed to capitalize, that being Summerslam 1993. I think the reason it gets overblown is because Luger was the first to defect in such a manner because Vince legitimately had no idea. Luger had worked a house show in Connecticut the night before the debut of Nitro, and when Vince (who was pre-empted due to the Dog Show) sat down to watch Nitro to get a feel for it with his inner circle and saw Luger come out during the main event, cussed like a sailor for a good twenty minutes. It could've been nearly anyone from the WWF's upper-mid to upper tier in that Luger role and Vince would've had the same reaction because of the WCW spin machine being able to announce it the way they did. Nobody gave a shit that it was Luger returning to WCW, they gave a shit because it was Lex Luger defecting from the WWF TO WCW.
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Paco
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 7,145
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Post by Paco on Jan 9, 2015 8:20:13 GMT -5
Love how they show WCW's "stupid moments" and they wouldn't look out of place on a current episode of RAW.
Also... Russo: "How can this show be so awful?" McMahon: "I didn't think it was."
Exactly.
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