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Post by cabbageboy on Jan 9, 2015 10:33:59 GMT -5
That was a breathtaking moment on that show, it really was. Hearing Russo tear Vince apart like that was just stunning. Did that actually make the air? It seemed like something from the Livewire set circa 1996. I remember Russo as Vic Venom being on there sometimes. Say what you will about Russo but the current system in WWE precludes someone like him from ever happening again, good or bad. Russo was someone who at least knew the product and had some fresh ideas (even insane ones).
The point I was trying to make with all of those guys is that their value to Vince was overblown. Obviously Hall and Nash were the most valuable since they were still full time wrestlers who on some level were over. I'd actually say Bret leaving the way he did drastically increased WWF business, but by Nov. 1997 Bret really didn't have a place in WWF booking. HBK was a far hotter heel with DX at that point, which Bret eerily worried about in Wrestling With Shadows when Patterson told him the Summerslam booking plans.
If they had lost Bret circa 1993-94, that would have been a fiasco. Losing Shawn Michaels circa 1996 would have been a fiasco, regardless of whether you liked his act or not. Losing the lowest drawing champion in company history? Not so much.
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Post by Racksman on Jan 9, 2015 12:53:46 GMT -5
If they had lost Bret circa 1993-94, that would have been a fiasco. Losing Shawn Michaels circa 1996 would have been a fiasco, regardless of whether you liked his act or not. Losing the lowest drawing champion in company history? Not so much. Business was down all around in '94 and '95. If the title had stayed on Bret throughout that period, business would have been just as bad. Wrestling had been on the downward spiral for about 3-4 years at that point and didn't start to gain any momentum whatsoever until the Fall of '95 when Nitro started. And I love that Nash gets all this shit for his title run, but let's look at his opponents, shall we? He feuds with Bret briefly over the belt in late '94/early '95, but it was entirely about respect and neither were barely on TV leading up to the Rumble. After that, he went into a lackluster feud with Shawn headed into WrestleMania. Coming out of Mania, he was entered into a lengthy program with the Million Dollar Corporation, namely Sid. As much as I love Sid, Sid's never drawn a dime in his life. And the matches between the two were the shits. Other challengers of Diesel during this feud? An aged Mike Rotunda, Tatanka, King Kong Bundy, Kama and Bam Bam Bam Bigelow (Bigelow being the only one out of that bunch that could work, at least still could work in Rotunda's defense). Oh and then the Mabel feud! Yeah, because Mabel winning KOTR and getting that monster push I'm sure would've done wonders for ANYBODY's title reign whether it be Diesel or Shawn or the f***ing Repo Man. Coming out of that, WWF really starts to amp it up a bit creatively in the Fall of '95 with Camp Cornette taking over as top heels, Diesel and Shawn back together, and some decent stuff from the Undertaker. Diesel/Bret have their third match in their series and Bret gets the sole win in their three match series, and it's one of the more memorable Survivor Series main events in history. I dare anybody to say someone else gets put Diesel's shoes and draws money in that company, in that era against those opponents. And my comments on Shawn had nothing to do with his act. Shawn didn't draw money either as champion, and that was when business was starting to upswing! And Shawn had way better opponents than Diesel did, that's for damn sure. Bret, Diesel, Bulldog, Vader, Mankind were his top opponents throughout his reign, and financially it did not do much better than Diesel's. It just doesn't get picked on as much because it wasn't a year long and he was booked far better. And mind you, Shawn's title reign WAS supposed to go for a year. He WAS supposed to hold onto it until WrestleMania 13 where he drops the belt back to Bret, but Shawn's plans changed as they magically always did back then. Diesel and Razor leaving didn't hurt business that much because there was barely a business to hurt. You said it yourself, Razor was barely on TV in 1996 due to the fugazy drug test. He was basically off TV from the night after the Rumble until the April IYH. That's alot of time for the casual fan to forget about you back then. Nobody ever said Shawn leaving in 1996 wouldn't have been a fiasco, and Bret leaving in 1997 did hurt, just not the way it would've at other points, because Bret was in the early stages of being phased out (his wishes) so he could take that cushy back office job once he retired. Not to mention, business was in the early stages of being impenetrable because it was the dawn of the Attitude Era in mid-97 and while ratings were still starting to climb back up, houses were already back up as were PPV buys.
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Paco
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 7,145
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Post by Paco on Jan 9, 2015 17:04:22 GMT -5
That was a breathtaking moment on that show, it really was. Hearing Russo tear Vince apart like that was just stunning. Did that actually make the air? It seemed like something from the Livewire set circa 1996. I remember Russo as Vic Venom being on there sometimes. Say what you will about Russo but the current system in WWE precludes someone like him from ever happening again, good or bad. Russo was someone who at least knew the product and had some fresh ideas (even insane ones). Yup. Right after watching this latest Monday Night War, I decided to look for that particular episode of LiveWire. Can't link to it but it was not hard to find. It also features Paul Heyman calling in as "Bruce from Connecticut".
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Jan 11, 2015 23:40:03 GMT -5
I know this would be extremely low on the priorities list, but man would it be a trip to see some old Livewire episodes on the Network.
If the Attitude Era was born on one show, it wasn't Raw or Shotgun, it was Livewire.
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BigBadZ
Grimlock
The Rumors Are All True
Posts: 13,923
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Post by BigBadZ on Jan 12, 2015 0:52:55 GMT -5
I'm watching the "Building an Army" episode and Nash mentioned that Kane was a dentist. Has WWE ever acknowledged this in any official capacity?
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Jan 12, 2015 1:12:23 GMT -5
I'm watching the "Building an Army" episode and Nash mentioned that Kane was a dentist. Has WWE ever acknowledged this in any official capacity? I know Todd Grisham got reprimanded for outing Kane during Heat. It got wiped from the American broadcast, but the commentary ended up on some international airings.
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BigBadZ
Grimlock
The Rumors Are All True
Posts: 13,923
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Post by BigBadZ on Jan 12, 2015 1:21:06 GMT -5
I'm watching the "Building an Army" episode and Nash mentioned that Kane was a dentist. Has WWE ever acknowledged this in any official capacity? I know Todd Grisham got reprimanded for outing Kane during Heat. It got wiped from the American broadcast, but the commentary ended up on some international airings. I'd never heard that. I had thought Kane's character was kind of protected in a way that nothing existed before "Kane" so I had to rewind it to make sure I heard Nash right.
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Post by misconduct was wrong on Jan 12, 2015 3:44:58 GMT -5
Just watching the current Monday Night War they're playing. Man does Hogan really come off like egotistical trash.
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Zach
Trap-Jaw
Posts: 368
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Post by Zach on Jan 12, 2015 10:21:03 GMT -5
I know Todd Grisham got reprimanded for outing Kane during Heat. It got wiped from the American broadcast, but the commentary ended up on some international airings. I'd never heard that. I had thought Kane's character was kind of protected in a way that nothing existed before "Kane" so I had to rewind it to make sure I heard Nash right. Lawler would make a "Christmas Creature" reference every year around Christmas time when Kane was on screen. They've also mentioned Kane being Fake Diesel several times
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the2ndevil
Grimlock
Super Seducer Survivor
Where Is Your Santa, Now?
Posts: 13,629
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Post by the2ndevil on Jan 13, 2015 2:10:44 GMT -5
So, I'm watching the Bret Hart episode, and I absolutely love Paul Heyman's rundown on exactly why he was on Vince McMahon's side of the Montreal incident, as a fellow owner of a wrestling company.
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Krazee
Salacious Crumb
Posts: 71,547
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Post by Krazee on Jan 13, 2015 17:45:00 GMT -5
sad to see the series end
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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Jan 14, 2015 0:48:09 GMT -5
Man, WWE really made some excuses to how they screwed up the Invasion. It was just sickening.
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fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
FAN Idol All-Star: FAN Idol Season X and *Gavel* 2x Judges' Throwdown winner
Tribe has spoken for 2024 Mets
Posts: 38,990
Member is Online
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Post by fw91 on Jan 14, 2015 1:00:39 GMT -5
lackluster finale imo.
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Steveweiser
Dalek
Mickie Mickie You're So Fine... Hey Mickie!
THE GRAPS
Posts: 50,249
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Post by Steveweiser on Jan 14, 2015 2:57:58 GMT -5
Complete BS on why the Invasion failed. Simple fact was that those guys could have been made stars if Kevin Dunn didn't have a superiority complex, and realised that all of them were WWF employees, and it didn't matter that "WCW geeks are beating WWF Superstars".
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wgdj
AC Slater
Posts: 187
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Post by wgdj on Jan 14, 2015 3:06:20 GMT -5
What I found most annoying about the series was the constant recapping of the basics of the Monday Night War each and every episode. It seemed to get a little bit better over the last two episodes, but there were some episodes where it felt like a good portion of the episode was devoted to telling the same story over and over. It made little sense as the overwhelming majority of people watching the show would have known the basic facts anyway. To that end, why not just establish the basics of the war in the first episode and then assume that if people came late to the series they'd go back and watch that? It's all there on demand anyway!
It was a mostly enjoyable series, but it was hardly revelatory. It was a series that was -- I assume -- aimed at die hard fans, yet it seemed to assume that the viewer had only a passing knowledge of '90s wrestling history.
It would be really cool if they'd do an original series about the evolution of the Rock 'n' Wrestling era into the "Golden" era and then into the New Generation. It might be hard seeing as so many major players from those eras are sadly gone now, but it has the potential to be interesting.
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salz4life
Grimlock
Prichard is a guy who gets that his job is to service his boss.
Posts: 13,967
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Post by salz4life on Jan 14, 2015 12:02:55 GMT -5
I thought it was a fun series.
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khyledeen
Team Rocket
nostalgia makes me feel nostalgic
Posts: 758
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Post by khyledeen on Jan 14, 2015 13:48:39 GMT -5
WWE Excess needs to be on the WWE Network soon, Trish Stratus singing The Sun'll Come Out will always have a place in my heart.
My fav episode is when Stacy Kiebler & Torrie Wilson guest starred, beautiful women, especially for those of us on Team Alliance!
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Zach
Trap-Jaw
Posts: 368
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Post by Zach on Jan 14, 2015 15:48:40 GMT -5
Man, WWE really made some excuses to how they screwed up the Invasion. It was just sickening. Well isn't the reason it failed because of what they said, they couldn't get any of the top guys because they were sitting out their WCW contracts? Personally that is why I thought it sucked back when it was happening. We all wanted to see nWo come out and fight Rock and Austin and instead we got Shawn Stasiak and Chuck Palumbo
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Post by DZ: WF Legacy on Jan 15, 2015 3:37:36 GMT -5
I think my favorite episode was either the first one, the one about Flair/Bischoff or the Russo episode. I found all three of those to be fascinating. We don't hear a whole lot about later days WCW on WWE programming, and to be frank, I couldn't stomach anything after early '99 or so when I was watching it back in the day. So to see a lot of the blunders and hear Russo's take on it, along with others, was very interesting.
It'd be cool if for those upcoming DVDs, they interviewed Sting and spliced in his thoughts on the matter, making them extended episodes.
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Zach
Trap-Jaw
Posts: 368
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Post by Zach on Jan 15, 2015 8:08:18 GMT -5
The series was good overall but they could have easily cut almost half of the episodes out. All the individual wrestler biographies were really pointless, there should have just been one on Goldberg, Sting, and maybe a Rock/Austin one
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