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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 22:56:52 GMT -5
The thing I've come to realize with these "social justice warriors" is that a lot of them are awkward teenagers or young adults that have trouble expressing themselves for whatever reason. Their hearts are in the right places and I hope to see them become actual advocates for social justice when they mature (as in doing more than yelling at people/the wall on Tumblr using meme-generated phrases like "CAN WE NOT" or whatever), but the brain needs to catch up with the heart. Nail on the head. I mean, if ALL of us in this thread looked back at our ideological pledges and frustrations in our teen years and saw that a site like tumblr existed for it, we'd all probably be a lot more sympathetic to teenagers being teenagers, making fools of themselves in an attempt to be a good person. Sometimes it's hard to make your ideologies work alongside the systems set up in the world etc. It's the frustrating part of adulthood, a lot of the time we forget that the people around us are much younger with less experience in life so they can't figure out how to express themselves/give advice beyond absolutes. I've ended up talking down to teenagers/younger people at union events -same as older people have done the same to me- when they/I've not understood how to act constructively, and I realize it's a dickish way to deal. Logic and politeness with allies -even in disagreements- or those a little too naive will make them hear your words better than insults and social carpet bombings. I mean, a lot of adults still deal in absolutes, but for those involved in any campaigning for equality or against certain political legislation I guarantee we've all done stupid junk initially in our teen years before working out how to do things in a way that actually works. Your heart & head being full of fire whilst no one takes you seriously as a young person can make you a reactionary very easily, with experience that tends to simmer away and make you a more constructive and responsible person.
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Post by Dub H on Jul 15, 2014 23:02:07 GMT -5
The thing I've come to realize with these "social justice warriors" is that a lot of them are awkward teenagers or young adults that have trouble expressing themselves for whatever reason. Their hearts are in the right places and I hope to see them become actual advocates for social justice when they mature (as in doing more than yelling at people/the wall on Tumblr using meme-generated phrases like "CAN WE NOT" or whatever), but the brain needs to catch up with the heart. Exactly. As over the top and silly as some can be, it's hard for me to get too annoyed with them when their concerns are actually legit ones. I can't treat both extremes as equally bad when the other side - the MRA crowd, as it would seem- is using the same over the top tactics for reactionary nonsense that doesn't help anyone. At least feminism, in his basic unfiltered form, is something constructive. Both sides are for something "constructive" form what i know(I will admit,i do not know much about MRA,but i do not see anything wrong with the premise of what i heard,but i'm sure there is some big catch).But both sides are really really assholes. Besides,the tumblr "feminists" is a really warped view of feminism.It is not constructive in any way ,it just attacks,hypocrisy,playing victims and having their way.I just don't want people view of equality,or of people fighting for equality to be warped into the tumblr scene.Also i'm not sure how much this enter into the "no politics rules" so i will stop by here. But i will only say...there is better ways to fight than yelling,calling people dipshits,to check their privileges and yelling at all times.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 23:11:29 GMT -5
The thing I've come to realize with these "social justice warriors" is that a lot of them are awkward teenagers or young adults that have trouble expressing themselves for whatever reason. Their hearts are in the right places and I hope to see them become actual advocates for social justice when they mature (as in doing more than yelling at people/the wall on Tumblr using meme-generated phrases like "CAN WE NOT" or whatever), but the brain needs to catch up with the heart. Exactly. As over the top and silly as some can be, it's hard for me to get too annoyed with them when their concerns are actually legit ones. I can't treat both extremes as equally bad when the other side - the MRA crowd, as it would seem- is using the same over the top tactics for reactionary nonsense that doesn't help anyone. At least feminism, in his basic unfiltered form, is something constructive. I get mad at them because they make me look bad.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jul 15, 2014 23:12:19 GMT -5
The rules say you can't get into legislation talk or about anything branches of government/politicians are doing, so it can be managed.
Both sides are guilty of having a victim complex, but the vast majority of Men's Rights groups aren't even trying to address legit problems concerning men in society (none of which are due to feminism, in fact I've seen a lot of female activists encourage men with body issues- something that often is underreported in comparison to women's body issues- to feel better about themselves) so much as they are trying to shout the other side down.
As bad as some SJWs can be, they almost always have a real concern beyond "eat it, male scum".
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Toates Madhackrviper
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Jul 16, 2014 1:15:51 GMT -5
The thing I've come to realize with these "social justice warriors" is that a lot of them are awkward teenagers or young adults that have trouble expressing themselves for whatever reason. Their hearts are in the right places and I hope to see them become actual advocates for social justice when they mature (as in doing more than yelling at people/the wall on Tumblr using meme-generated phrases like "CAN WE NOT" or whatever), but the brain needs to catch up with the heart. Exactly. As over the top and silly as some can be, it's hard for me to get too annoyed with them when their concerns are actually legit ones. I can't treat both extremes as equally bad when the other side - the MRA crowd, as it would seem- is using the same over the top tactics for reactionary nonsense that doesn't help anyone. At least feminism, in his basic unfiltered form, is something constructive. Thank you both, you said what I wanted to say in reply to the people that replied to me but wasn't sure how to phrase. This is exactly how I feel about the situation as well.
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Toates Madhackrviper
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Jul 16, 2014 1:56:11 GMT -5
Exactly. As over the top and silly as some can be, it's hard for me to get too annoyed with them when their concerns are actually legit ones. I can't treat both extremes as equally bad when the other side - the MRA crowd, as it would seem- is using the same over the top tactics for reactionary nonsense that doesn't help anyone. At least feminism, in his basic unfiltered form, is something constructive. Both sides are for something "constructive" form what i know(I will admit,i do not know much about MRA,but i do not see anything wrong with the premise of what i heard,but i'm sure there is some big catch).But both sides are really really assholes. Besides,the tumblr "feminists" is a really warped view of feminism.It is not constructive in any way ,it just attacks,hypocrisy,playing victims and having their way.I just don't want people view of equality,or of people fighting for equality to be warped into the tumblr scene.Also i'm not sure how much this enter into the "no politics rules" so i will stop by here. But i will only say...there is better ways to fight than yelling,calling people dipshits,to check their privileges and yelling at all times. MRAs are talking about things that are legitimate problems a good... eh... 75% of the time or so. Custody rights, conscription, ect. They're just wrong about the source of the problem. They're wrong about their enemy. They blame feminism for their problems when really the source of their problems is the same thing feminism fights against. The patriarchal system that feminism seeks to deconstruct and dismantle imposes standards on men such that any man that doesn't fit the ideal concept of the perfect patriarchal man will experience struggle based on that. Almost every "mens rights" issue is something that in all actuality is basically just men getting slapped by the "other side" of the systems and standards of patriarchy that primarily opress women. Women are favored over men in custody battles because it is seen as the mothers "role" to directly raise children, only men have to sign up for the draft because fighting in wars is seen as a primarily masculine duty, male rape and abuse victims do not receive support for a myriad of reasons connected to patriarchy mostly the expectation that a man should never be able to be overpowered by a woman. I could write a whole essay about that last one on its own but basically patriarchal standards shame male victims of rape and abuse into silence. Its all based on a set of arbitrary and/or antiquated gender roles. These gender roles primarily oppress women, but men who fall out of these strict expectations do also experience issues. The only issue that I as a man honestly consider to be "male exclusive" in way that I find women attempting to speak over men on the issue offensive is the issue of circumcision (and also to be politically correct I should say "people with penises" to be trans-inclusive, but I'm trying to not overcomplicate things right now) Ideally there would be a safe place for pro-feminism men to discuss the ways that patriarchy effects men adversely and receive emotional validation on those issues without speaking over women, but sadly these discussions tend to be taken over by the same misogyny that currently hijacks mens rights activism. Realistically its rarely proven to be possible. Its important to remember that "patriarchy" does not mean an evil cabal of rich white straight men that set rules and decide how they're going to oppress women, people of color, and LGBTQA people today. Its a set of deeply seeded social systems, many of which are not even based in law but rather just the way we as a culture are socialized, that require generations of progress and effort to overcome. Almost every feminist that I know, ones I met through tumblr agree that patriarchy effects men adversely as well and that men have every reason to be feminist allies because the destruction of patriarchy and gender role expectations benefits us as well. Honestly dude I spent a good year and a half on tumblr before having to leave for reasons I'd rather not discuss right now and I rarely if ever saw feminists react in the way you describe unless men were being actively oppressive to them. They don't just randomly come at men unprovoked. They may make posts on their blog like "f*** men" as a sort of emotional venting thing but they're not talking about all men as individuals they're talking about men as an institution. You should see that as the emotionally valid venting that it is, not as a personal attack. Its not personal and you shouldn't take it personally. And as long as you're not being oppressive they won't treat badly for being a man. I've never met a single feminist on tumblr who wasn't kind to me, occasionally correcting me on minor things in a peaceful way but nothing more. The only time I got angry responses from feminists on tumblr was when my thirsty advances on women on tumblr crossed a line into harassive and creepy and well... I deserved that and I'm glad they did that because I learned something from it. Like honestly the "meme" of tumblr mentality just does not reflect the reality of tumblr mentality when you interact with these people respectfully on a one on one basis. Tumblr culture has its shitty aspects and I'll criticize them where they deserve it, but this whole production about how "social justice warriors" act just does not reflect the reality of the situation. People on tumblr who get angry about social justice issues do it in reaction to oppressive things. The people who get upset about this are the people doing the oppressing. That was the reality of tumblr that I witnessed during my time on the website. And this is all as a white cishet man in his mid twenties who's only major form of oppression to speak of is as an autistic. Also minor point I don't understand why people see "check your privilege" as an attacking statement. As a person who is mostly privileged I just see it as a reminder. A reminder that I as a (for example) white person experience privileges that (for example) people of color do not experience. The reminder to check that privilege is an important one if you're going to participate in conversations about equality. Privilege is something you have to be aware of. Not guilty about, thats a common misconception and I think the center of why people find the statement insulting, just aware. I could write about this all night if I don't stop myself and I have other responsibilities to attend to before bed and little time to do that in so I'll cut this off here I guess. I hope I helped some.
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Post by bigalbass86 AKA Smokin Vokoun on Jul 16, 2014 2:22:42 GMT -5
I'm more amused that this "thing" took place 15 minutes where I live.
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Post by The Sam on Jul 16, 2014 4:22:14 GMT -5
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Post by Mozenrath on Jul 16, 2014 4:32:10 GMT -5
There comes a very difficult time in many peoples' lives where they become much more aware of a lot of problems other than their own. With that knowledge, they think that others are complacent in not tackling these problems, and in many cases, that's the case, but more often, it's because the people who seem to ignore it have met the brick wall the people new to it meet, where they find out just how complicated these problems are, and with that, learn to feel the impotence of their rage and righteousness when they are faced with a problem that they cannot make go away with a simple band-aid on it.
Look at any time people shout down a celebrity who slips up, with a slur or otherwise. They feel empowered for the moment, maybe, that they really stuck it to racism in costing someone a sponsor, or the like, but just as fast, things go right back to the way that they were once everyone loses interest. There is a major difference between nagging someone and influencing their world view.
Beyond that, they are hit in the face with the true scale of a problem if they take the time to truly learn about it. No amount of harassing Michael Vick ended dogfighting. People deserve to be taken to task, but if you want to make any real difference, it take money, time, and effort, not well wishes. You can't feed neglected animals with a thoughtful prayer. You need MONEY or other resources. That's a bitter pill to swallow for people who mean well, who have good intentions, but who are ultimately just one person, unless they can either join something bigger or create it themselves.
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Jul 16, 2014 5:13:21 GMT -5
I just see young people speaking in absolutes (like Sith lords!), and not realizing that life is grey and has no easy solutions.
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Post by Mozenrath on Jul 16, 2014 5:31:44 GMT -5
I just see young people speaking in absolutes (like Sith lords!), and not realizing that life is grey and has no easy solutions. That's definitely a big one, especially if they are exposed to failings of people they respected or love, like a homophobic uncle or seeing someone drink themselves to an early grave, etc. So much capacity for strength and weakness in people, it can be a real shock to the system.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 16, 2014 8:28:03 GMT -5
Exactly. As over the top and silly as some can be, it's hard for me to get too annoyed with them when their concerns are actually legit ones. I can't treat both extremes as equally bad when the other side - the MRA crowd, as it would seem- is using the same over the top tactics for reactionary nonsense that doesn't help anyone. At least feminism, in his basic unfiltered form, is something constructive. Both sides are for something "constructive" form what i know(I will admit,i do not know much about MRA,but i do not see anything wrong with the premise of what i heard,but i'm sure there is some big catch).But both sides are really really assholes. Besides,the tumblr "feminists" is a really warped view of feminism.It is not constructive in any way ,it just attacks,hypocrisy,playing victims and having their way.I just don't want people view of equality,or of people fighting for equality to be warped into the tumblr scene.Also i'm not sure how much this enter into the "no politics rules" so i will stop by here. But i will only say...there is better ways to fight than yelling,calling people dipshits,to check their privileges and yelling at all times. Toates covered it pretty well, but I'd just say be careful with generalizations. Tumblr users skew young, so you'll undoubtedly run into immaturity, but there isn't some single set of "Tumblr style feminism" that runs counter to more conventional or academic feminism. There's too many users on Tumblr for the whole population to be so monolithic in its views, really.
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Post by Dub H on Jul 16, 2014 8:37:57 GMT -5
Both sides are for something "constructive" form what i know(I will admit,i do not know much about MRA,but i do not see anything wrong with the premise of what i heard,but i'm sure there is some big catch).But both sides are really really assholes. Besides,the tumblr "feminists" is a really warped view of feminism.It is not constructive in any way ,it just attacks,hypocrisy,playing victims and having their way.I just don't want people view of equality,or of people fighting for equality to be warped into the tumblr scene.Also i'm not sure how much this enter into the "no politics rules" so i will stop by here. But i will only say...there is better ways to fight than yelling,calling people dipshits,to check their privileges and yelling at all times. Toates covered it pretty well, but I'd just say be careful with generalizations. Tumblr users skew young, so you'll undoubtedly run into immaturity, but there isn't some single set of "Tumblr style feminism" that runs counter to more conventional or academic feminism. There's too many users on Tumblr for the whole population to be so monolithic in its views, really. Yeh,when i say tumblr feminist i of course do not mean every single user.Just the infamous one,i'm sure there is feminists in tumblr that are not like that.I will try to be more careful in the future.
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Post by Dub H on Jul 16, 2014 8:43:02 GMT -5
Both sides are for something "constructive" form what i know(I will admit,i do not know much about MRA,but i do not see anything wrong with the premise of what i heard,but i'm sure there is some big catch).But both sides are really really assholes. Besides,the tumblr "feminists" is a really warped view of feminism.It is not constructive in any way ,it just attacks,hypocrisy,playing victims and having their way.I just don't want people view of equality,or of people fighting for equality to be warped into the tumblr scene.Also i'm not sure how much this enter into the "no politics rules" so i will stop by here. But i will only say...there is better ways to fight than yelling,calling people dipshits,to check their privileges and yelling at all times. MRAs are talking about things that are legitimate problems a good... eh... 75% of the time or so. Custody rights, conscription, ect. They're just wrong about the source of the problem. They're wrong about their enemy. They blame feminism for their problems when really the source of their problems is the same thing feminism fights against. The patriarchal system that feminism seeks to deconstruct and dismantle imposes standards on men such that any man that doesn't fit the ideal concept of the perfect patriarchal man will experience struggle based on that. Almost every "mens rights" issue is something that in all actuality is basically just men getting slapped by the "other side" of the systems and standards of patriarchy that primarily opress women. Women are favored over men in custody battles because it is seen as the mothers "role" to directly raise children, only men have to sign up for the draft because fighting in wars is seen as a primarily masculine duty, male rape and abuse victims do not receive support for a myriad of reasons connected to patriarchy mostly the expectation that a man should never be able to be overpowered by a woman. I could write a whole essay about that last one on its own but basically patriarchal standards shame male victims of rape and abuse into silence. Its all based on a set of arbitrary and/or antiquated gender roles. These gender roles primarily oppress women, but men who fall out of these strict expectations do also experience issues. The only issue that I as a man honestly consider to be "male exclusive" in way that I find women attempting to speak over men on the issue offensive is the issue of circumcision (and also to be politically correct I should say "people with penises" to be trans-inclusive, but I'm trying to not overcomplicate things right now) Ideally there would be a safe place for pro-feminism men to discuss the ways that patriarchy effects men adversely and receive emotional validation on those issues without speaking over women, but sadly these discussions tend to be taken over by the same misogyny that currently hijacks mens rights activism. Realistically its rarely proven to be possible. Its important to remember that "patriarchy" does not mean an evil cabal of rich white straight men that set rules and decide how they're going to oppress women, people of color, and LGBTQA people today. Its a set of deeply seeded social systems, many of which are not even based in law but rather just the way we as a culture are socialized, that require generations of progress and effort to overcome. Almost every feminist that I know, ones I met through tumblr agree that patriarchy effects men adversely as well and that men have every reason to be feminist allies because the destruction of patriarchy and gender role expectations benefits us as well. Honestly dude I spent a good year and a half on tumblr before having to leave for reasons I'd rather not discuss right now and I rarely if ever saw feminists react in the way you describe unless men were being actively oppressive to them. They don't just randomly come at men unprovoked. They may make posts on their blog like "f*** men" as a sort of emotional venting thing but they're not talking about all men as individuals they're talking about men as an institution. You should see that as the emotionally valid venting that it is, not as a personal attack. Its not personal and you shouldn't take it personally. And as long as you're not being oppressive they won't treat badly for being a man. I've never met a single feminist on tumblr who wasn't kind to me, occasionally correcting me on minor things in a peaceful way but nothing more. The only time I got angry responses from feminists on tumblr was when my thirsty advances on women on tumblr crossed a line into harassive and creepy and well... I deserved that and I'm glad they did that because I learned something from it. Like honestly the "meme" of tumblr mentality just does not reflect the reality of tumblr mentality when you interact with these people respectfully on a one on one basis. Tumblr culture has its shitty aspects and I'll criticize them where they deserve it, but this whole production about how "social justice warriors" act just does not reflect the reality of the situation. People on tumblr who get angry about social justice issues do it in reaction to oppressive things. The people who get upset about this are the people doing the oppressing. That was the reality of tumblr that I witnessed during my time on the website. And this is all as a white cishet man in his mid twenties who's only major form of oppression to speak of is as an autistic. Also minor point I don't understand why people see "check your privilege" as an attacking statement. As a person who is mostly privileged I just see it as a reminder. A reminder that I as a (for example) white person experience privileges that (for example) people of color do not experience. The reminder to check that privilege is an important one if you're going to participate in conversations about equality. Privilege is something you have to be aware of. Not guilty about, thats a common misconception and I think the center of why people find the statement insulting, just aware. I could write about this all night if I don't stop myself and I have other responsibilities to attend to before bed and little time to do that in so I'll cut this off here I guess. I hope I helped some. Overall amazing read.Really insightful than most that i read. I will just comment in the check your privilege.because it truly is for me,a silly and really annoying phrase.It implies that you are NOT aware of your privileges,that you are not thinking clearly and that you should rethink your opinion.And that is insulting,even if they don't mean to insult. I also have seen "check your privilege" to be used as a way to discount someone else opinion BECAUSE of their privileges in the past.While i'm sure that is to the original meaning,it just an more extreme version.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 9:34:12 GMT -5
Toates covered it pretty well, but I'd just say be careful with generalizations. Tumblr users skew young, so you'll undoubtedly run into immaturity, but there isn't some single set of "Tumblr style feminism" that runs counter to more conventional or academic feminism. There's too many users on Tumblr for the whole population to be so monolithic in its views, really. The problem is, many of them are 3rd-wave feminists. 3rd-wave feminism is greatly exaggerated and over the top and they make the original and 2nd-wave feminists look like horrible people because with how big the internet is, lots of people think ALL feminists think that way when they don't. Many 3rd-wave feminists are extremely transphobic, for example. That turned me off of feminism as a whole. And don't get me started on the "misandry doesn't exist" crap that they spew all the time. I stand up for women's rights as a trans-person. But I also stand up for men. I want NOTHING to do with these people.
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Post by Cyno on Jul 16, 2014 9:44:45 GMT -5
The problem there is that that isn't third wave feminism at all. The term's been misused by the fedora crowd into being " those feminists who hate us nice guys!" when it's a very general term for feminist theory from the 90's on. The only real difference between third-wave and second-wave theory is that third wave is more aware of queer and non-white women. That's it. On a lighter note, blog.dennys.com/post/91950917438/welcome-to-dencon-on-your-birthday-you-get-anOh my god.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 10:39:52 GMT -5
So, in summary... the Tumbler convention, which was supposed to a deep and profound exploration of political topics and personal liberties, consisted of a ballpit and a bouncing castle.
I can go to a seven-year old's birthday party for that.
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Toates Madhackrviper
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Jul 16, 2014 11:05:10 GMT -5
So, in summary... the Tumbler convention, which was supposed to a deep and profound exploration of political topics and personal liberties, consisted of a ballpit and a bouncing castle. I can go to a seven-year old's birthday party for that. To be fair I don't think Dashcon was even intended to be about political topics and personal liberties. The panel listing indicates that Dashcon was intended to appeal to the fandom side of tumblr. So the Superwholocks (Supernatural/Dr Who/Sherlock) fans and Homestuck crowd and such. The fandom "side" of tumblr and the social justice "side" of tumblr are two fairly distinct groups (with hella subdivisions, tumblr culture is fascinatingly stratified for a website with absolutely no enforced stratification *sociology geek squeal*). The social justice "side" of tumblr mostly mocked the idea of Dashcon, and even got annoyed at certain aspects of it. Like the fact that they successfully raised 17,000 dollars to save the con but can't for homeless trans people looking for help or the seminar about gay shipping which is often seen as fetishization and objectification of the SJ community. There's intersection of course, one of my favorite blogs is called "Fandoms and Feminism" (worth checking out imo) but for the most part SJ tumblr and fandom tumblr clash. Which is funny because these two stereotypes both are part of the memeified version of tumblr culture so the average tumblr user is probably assumed to be both a Superwholock and a social justice warrior. Which is absolutely hilarious to me because SJWs usually hate Superwholock for all being being whitewashed, lowkey misogynist, and for blatant queerbaiting. I should just write a paper on all since instead or something.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 11:08:43 GMT -5
The problem there is that that isn't third wave feminism at all. The term's been misused by the fedora crowd into being " those feminists who hate us nice guys!" when it's a very general term for feminist theory from the 90's on. The only real difference between third-wave and second-wave theory is that third wave is more aware of queer and non-white women. That's it. My mistake... I had misread some things and all that. TERFs are the transphobe feminists. rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trans-exclusionary_radical_feminismThat still doesn't explain the whole "misandry doesn't exist" myth.
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Jul 16, 2014 11:13:45 GMT -5
They should have waited until October so it could be a Spooktacular disaster
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