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Post by Red Impact on Aug 27, 2014 22:42:02 GMT -5
I don't really care what you think about a person as soon as it gets to people listing your address and saying they're going to kill your parents or graphically talk about how they want to rip you open, you have a community that deserves to be shit on with all the force of an army with food poisoning. Yes, good people may get harshly stereotyped for it as well, but unless the good people are willing to stand up against those whose responses harm their image, then they don't have a lot to complain about.
There's no defense to that. There's no "but she ______" to that. It only exposing just how absolutely vilely some people react when their precious golden calf is examined for the first time in their lives and someone forces them to think about the fact that maybe because men tend to get armor and women tend to get get skin-tight body suits and short skirts that gender representation might be something worth discussing and not swept under the rug for nebulous reasons that ignore the main points. If you want to kill the stereotype, you have to start policing yourself to stop the shit, not stand back and wave a banner of how someone is wrong is completely unrelated ways while ignoring the vile vitriol that comes out of your side,
It has nothing to do with being PC or being a SJW, it has everything to do with not being a waste of oxygen and electricity. This is way off topic, but that type of behavior really pushes my buttons. Disagreeing with someone and going that far are too completely different things, and it's asinine to ignore that sort of bullshit if you're a community that wants to push back against what you feel is unfair comparisons.
Enough about the Sarkeesian thing though, as far as the topic goes, in an ideal world all the corporate connections would be disclosed. That's how most honest journalism outlets do it, they'll state in the open where they get their money and write from there. The fact that it doesn't happen doesn't really make gaming journalism worse than other outlets, I mean ESPN does this regularly with sports, but it is a step that needs to be taken if they want to better wave the banner of legitimacy.
Reviews are a trickier thing just due to the nature of the industry, but I think the problem unique to gaming reviews comes with just how inflated they are. Anything below an 8 is looked at as a disappointment, which defeats the purpose of the scale. Add the fact that most games are just too long to play through entirely and teh corporate connections and you have a situation where speaking about a game's flaws just becomes increasingly impractical, especially if you're dealing with a long game.
That's one of the advantages of social gaming on Twitch and Youtube, they're not hindered by the same constraints as a journalist is, so they can really show off a game.
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Post by knightrider01 on Aug 27, 2014 22:45:59 GMT -5
After being at work all I started to have what some would call an epiphany, and have to tried very hard to think about I am going to say.
First off to be completely open and honest with all of you I am a 26 year old man who lives at home with his parents and who never before has had sex, a relationship, or even really kissed a woman. I tell you this because through all of this in, no way shape or form do I hate woman. I love them, I adore them. To me they are an essential part of life and I honestly believe to the bottom of my heart that they should be equal in every way we men are treated. With that being said I must openly admit that I myself really don't Anita or what she stands for. I don't think she is doing this to help anybody but her self. I also don't JonTron, I have never watched any of his videos or really support him and after seeing some of the above do think there may be something wrong with hi,. I really believe that neither of them should receive death threats or harassment for how they act or what they say. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they should be treated like that. Also saying that one was treated one way so it is okay to do it to another is a bad way to look at life. Eye for an eye makes every one blind or so they say.
Now the reason why I created this thread and wanted to have this discussion wasn't to talk about Zoe and really was to talk about corruption in an industry that I really care about, hell we all care about it. From playing Atari 2600 to beating Super Mario to the first tie we played Halo or GTA, it is an industry full of memories both good and bad. In the past week I have seen people be harassed, people having there personal information put on Twitter and some responding with that they haven't used their knife in a long time. I have seen people who have done nothing but express an opinion and then be compared to ISIS, then being called out on it tell said person to grow up. I have seen some people defend freedom of speech only to have their pictures from when they were 10 critiqued with comments like, "clean your finger nails," to "eat shit." I have seen some people actually have their right to protest infringed upon with lies and slander. After all of this you might all think you know who did this i.e. 4chan, Reddit. But in all honestly this has been the so called SJW's. That is what is worrying me so much, that all the people who claim to be for peace and change are just as hateful and mean as the so called internet hate machine. I know that 4chan is a terrible place and probably be avoided and ignored, but after looking over things and reading up on this I see that the other side not any better.
My hobby, our hobby has some where been taken over by two ideologies, and the problem with them is that they are bother extreme with no middle ground. On one hand we hate the worst of the worst who say and horrendous things. On the other a side that claims to be morally superior but is just has bad.
Through all of this I realized something that I think we should all realize. Equality is alive and well in video games, and that should horrify all of us. Because instead of being the equality that we all want, the one that represents the best of humanity with its creativity and imagination, it is an equality that shows that men, woman, everybody can be just has hateful and terrible as the next one. And that is what is bothering me so, we all have the capacity to hate and slander and lie. Perhaps there is no hope.
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Post by Michael Coello on Aug 27, 2014 22:54:27 GMT -5
I don't really care what you think about a person as soon as it gets to people listing your address and saying they're going to kill you, you have a community that deserves to be shit on with all the force of an army with food poisoning. There's no defense to that. There's no "but she ______" to that. It only exposing just how absolutely vilely some people react when their precious golden calf is examined for the first time in their lives and someone forces them to think about the fact that maybe because men tend to get armor and women tend to get get skin-tight body suits and short skirts that gender representation might be something worth discussing and not swept under the rug for nebulous reasons that ignore the main points. If you want to kill the stereotype, you have to start policing yourself to stop the shit, not stand back and wave a banner of how someone is wrong is completely unrelated ways while ignoring the vile vitriol that comes out of your side, It has nothing to do with being PC or being a SJW, it has everything to do with not being a waste of oxygen and electricity. And nothing to do with her, as SHE DIDN'T GET HACKED(last 3/4th), SHE COULDN'T GET HACKED. SHE LIED ABOUT IT TO GET SYMPATHY. Hell,she led someone to get doxxed herself. By your own logic, she is a waste of oxygen and electricity.
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Post by Red Impact on Aug 27, 2014 23:04:35 GMT -5
I don't really care what you think about a person as soon as it gets to people listing your address and saying they're going to kill you, you have a community that deserves to be shit on with all the force of an army with food poisoning. There's no defense to that. There's no "but she ______" to that. It only exposing just how absolutely vilely some people react when their precious golden calf is examined for the first time in their lives and someone forces them to think about the fact that maybe because men tend to get armor and women tend to get get skin-tight body suits and short skirts that gender representation might be something worth discussing and not swept under the rug for nebulous reasons that ignore the main points. If you want to kill the stereotype, you have to start policing yourself to stop the shit, not stand back and wave a banner of how someone is wrong is completely unrelated ways while ignoring the vile vitriol that comes out of your side, It has nothing to do with being PC or being a SJW, it has everything to do with not being a waste of oxygen and electricity. And nothing to do with her, as SHE DIDN'T GET HACKED(last 3/4th), SHE COULDN'T GET HACKED. SHE LIED ABOUT IT TO GET SYMPATHY. Hell,she led someone to get doxxed herself. By your own logic, she is a waste of oxygen and electricity. If Quinn was responsible for someone's personal information being published for the sake of receiving threats, then she absolutely qualifies as a waste of oxygen and electricity, and I'd honestly never heard a thing about her until this thread. That doesn't change the fact that the community needs to develop some f***ing standards and stand up to this type of behavior if it ever wants to shake the stereotype of being the immature social rejects that those sorts of responses confirm.
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Post by Cyno on Aug 27, 2014 23:22:46 GMT -5
A lot of that his post is subjective, but here's a source on the claim of stealing artwork, and here's one on the claim of stealing game footage. As far as "conned a fair amount of people out of money", I think he's referring to the whole situation with her Kickstarter. A quick Google search can give you info on it if you're interested. Based on getting the vibe of his posts, this probably covers the "no effort" claim as well. Can't claim to comprehend the money thing; people aren't under pressure to give to a Kickstarter, and many by their own admission gave as a response to the treatment she was getting. Stealing video strikes me as odd, as well, since that sounds tantamount to Let's Plays being wrong, by extension. Can't speak enough on the ins and outs of that, I admit, as I'm no expert on what exactly she's accused of stealing or what would be considered legal/proper decorum concerning them. I get the lack of output thing, though, and I'd get somebody being annoyed by that if they gave money. Still, it's hard to call it a scam in that case unless there's some level of proof she's personally profiting off it...and again, at the core a Kickstarter is what it is, there's no pressure to actually give to one. Regardless, the story came out today that she was literally driven out of her home by these lunatics sending threats to her actual house. Even if everything negative attributed to her is true, that's some dark, dark stuff going on. I think she does exactly that: uses footage of some Lets Plays without giving any sort of credit to the person who filmed the footage, which is pretty shady. But she could've filmed an entire video of her swimming in a pool filled with Kickstarter money, Scrooge McDuck style and it doesn't even come close to justifying the horrible comments and threats she's received. Her original Kickstarter goal was incredibly modest. Like I think it was $5000. And she got way more than that because of Youtube neanderthals posting over-the-top misogynistic shit, which in turn caused people to donate to the Kickstarter despite being well-funded. It's not like she or Kickstarter can personally refund every person's donation or anything. The only way this would be a scam is if the Youtube commenters were astroturfing on her behalf to raise a ruckus and get people to donate excessive amounts of money. And while I'm sure some fedora-wearing neckbeards would love that to be the case, I'm sure it isn't. The internet and gaming culture is just filled with disgusting excuses of humanity. As for Quinn, I actually think the "HACKED BY /V/ DOX!" thing was faked. It was on her Tumblr and not only did she post on the tumblr afterwards, but left the dox post up when it was clearly in her power to delete it, and there is literally no purpose to leaving it up. Not even for evidence. Deleted posts on Tumblr don't truly disappear and I'm sure with something as serious as that, the admins keep logs of who accesses what without the need of keeping it on there. At the very least, she could've just made her posts private until the authorities and/or tumblr admins had everything they needed and then deleted the offending post.
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Post by knightrider01 on Aug 28, 2014 4:00:57 GMT -5
Just wanted to post this before I went to bed. Apparently this is woman who hates 4chan and called them the "center of misogony" in the past. So the fact that she has this opinion about what is going on is...unexpected. www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s644c0
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Post by SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman on Aug 28, 2014 4:44:40 GMT -5
Well, when this was posted JonTron was in the middle of making a point that the kind of "social justice warriors" who claim to be preaching tolerance are doing anything but that by doing everything in their power to force their opinions onto others, preventing anyone else from expressing theirs, vilifying anyone who doesn't blindly agree with them and most importantly refuse to accept people who aren't part of their clique unless they submit to their views and disown anyone who disagrees... which he isn't exactly wrong about. I won't deny that in this specific example he expressed that in a stupid way but it does make more sense in context. It's not like he randomly went "lol SJWs are lynchers". Yeah nah. [picture removed for size] [picture removed for size] twitter.com/JonTronShow/status/495783749142192129i.imgur.com/x5muSIP.png(image has an uncensored f bomb) Shooting for the lofty heights of being like Mike from Penny Arcade. twitter.com/sokareemie/status/496283293374226432JonTron fanboys bombard a girl that calls him out on shit with a bunch of racist stuff. Jon doesn't try and get them to stop. [picture removed for size] [picture removed for size] Thank god for Ragny. Long story short Freedom of Speech basically means "You can't tell me my shitty opinions well educated facts are awful because that hurts my feelings makes you an SJW shill and a fascist!" Oh, alright. Gotta admit I was strongly misinformed, my bad. Didn't see the full picture and I was obviously mistaken. That said, I still believe that while what JonTron said was genuinely stupid and somewhat offensive, it HAS been blown way out of proportion and people did try to unfairly label him as anti-this and anti-that. I also don't see how it's fair to blame Jon for the actions of his fans. I wouldd also like to point out that the "did Hitler give up?" comment was a reference to many people comparing him to Hitler because he joked about pitching a video game called "Schindler's List HD Remix" in his "Titenic" video to mock the idea of making silly video games based on serious movies about real-life tragic events. That's right, people labelled him an anti-Semite and compared him to Adolf freaking Hitler for saying it would be a BAD thing to make a game that would be frivolous about the holocaust. Don't get me wrong, that doesn't excuse his attitude here, I agree some of the stuff he said and the way he reacted to some comments was very shitty and he had a stupidity fit, with the "but there are things even worse than what I said going on!" argument being prodigiously dumb, but I can understand why he'd be jumpy about being accused of having an evil agenda. Just like I can understand people being jumpy about him using a slur. Point is: JonTron was stupid to react the way he did, many people who criticized him were stupid to try and label him as a hatemongerer and as always the decent, sensible people who criticized or defended him in a way that isn't ridiculous are buried in between. Oh, so he didn't make more than one tasteless, antisemitic joke, then. f*** him. When? Again, the only case I can find of him being accused of that is the Schindler's List thing. I don't really care what you think about a person as soon as it gets to people listing your address and saying they're going to kill your parents or graphically talk about how they want to rip you open, you have a community that deserves to be shit on with all the force of an army with food poisoning. Yes, good people may get harshly stereotyped for it as well, but unless the good people are willing to stand up against those whose responses harm their image, then they don't have a lot to complain about. I agree completely with your first point but not at all with your second. In fact, I pretty much disagree with your second point because I agree with the first: it's not okay to lash out on someone and treat them as a chew toy just because they did something wrong. You can't say "we need to stop stereotyping by stereotyping people", this is not how fighting fire with fire works. I mean, what's that supposed to achieve? It's just petty revenge. Obviously are countless people in the gaming community fighting injustices and struggling to ensure equality for all people, so why would they deserve to be, and I quote "shit on with all the force of an army with food poisoning"? We are just not going to end prejudice by encouraging prejudice in the other direction because it's still prejudice and it still encourages gratuitous hatred of entire groups just for belonging in said group. See, I think the problem with everything discussed here is the bipolar approach to morality, as in if you're not all-good then you're evil, which is a load of bullshit yet many people still cling on to it. People need to understand that there is no one side that is always right and fighting for good and no one side that is always wrong and fighting for evil. In reality, people are complex and generally more decent that we give them credit for. Yes, people say stupid, ignorant, insulting and downright offensive things from time to time. I have, you have, we all have and at the end of the day, it would be unfair to judge any of us based on these incidents. What makes a person isn't their knee-jerk reactions and spur-of-the-moment stupidity, it's what they do and how they act on their day-to-day life. To cherry pick the moments when someone is at their worst, using that to attempt to vilify them by associating them with far worse ideals than their own by saying "he or she said that therefore they believe this and this and this" and declaring that to be their true self and that it's all they can be, no matter what they otherwise do is simply dishonest. Sure, it's easier to view people who disagree with you or at some point offended you as minions of evil out to destroy everything good and right in the world, but it's wrong. The "us vs them" attitude has never lead to anything constructive and if anything, it's downright toxic. To think that there is only one way to think right and to be moral and good and that anyone who deviates from that template or criticizes it is evil and deserves endless scorn is absurd and dangerous. This is why while Quinn did questionable things, to act like she's fair game and no attack on her is too harsh, let alone that defending her against abuse is wrong, is far worse than anything she might have done. This is why while what JonTron said is f'n stupid, he's not a monster for it and it's pretty obvious he doesn't have an agenda against anyone, but that doesn't mean he's right to have acted the way he did either. This is why if you dislike and/or disagree with Sarkeesian, that doesn't give you the right to send her death or rape threats and if you do like and/or agree with her, you need to keep in mind that she isn't above criticism, as long as it remains actual criticism and not insults. I am so, so very tired of the "pick a side, we're at war" attitude that seems to be everywhere these days.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
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Post by Dub H on Aug 28, 2014 4:57:35 GMT -5
This thread went the exact way i expect it to.The chaos is delicious.
But yeh,everything i saw a bout that Quinn girls is despicable,a faker and a manipulator. But i don't care,she will just be another bad indie developer that released a crappy Visual Novel.
I kind wanted to make a corruption free gaming website,but it sounds hard to find trustworthy journalist,for anything.
Edit:also i think the Quinn thing is more than the five guys,after that,it came censuring,abusing connections,screwing game jams,lying,fake accusations,and a whole more can of worms.I think if it just five guys thing,it would be a way smaller issue.
Edit2: Also, a lot of these people have a way to answer accusations that just makes people more suspicious.A Kotaku writer saw an image connecting her relation to a devoloper and a game,her answer was basically insulting gamers.JonTron jokes not helping to calm down the people And Phil Fish,just everything Phil Fish does.
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Post by Red Impact on Aug 28, 2014 7:17:58 GMT -5
I agree completely with your first point but not at all with your second. In fact, I pretty much disagree with your second point because I agree with the first: it's not okay to lash out on someone and treat them as a chew toy just because they did something wrong. You can't say "we need to stop stereotyping by stereotyping people", this is not how fighting fire with fire works. I mean, what's that supposed to achieve? It's just petty revenge. Obviously are countless people in the gaming community fighting injustices and struggling to ensure equality for all people, so why would they deserve to be, and I quote "shit on with all the force of an army with food poisoning"? We are just not going to end prejudice by encouraging prejudice in the other direction because it's still prejudice and it still encourages gratuitous hatred of entire groups just for belonging in said group. See, I think the problem with everything discussed here is the bipolar approach to morality, as in if you're not all-good then you're evil, which is a load of bullshit yet many people still cling on to it. People need to understand that there is no one side that is always right and fighting for good and no one side that is always wrong and fighting for evil. In reality, people are complex and generally more decent that we give them credit for. Yes, people say stupid, ignorant, insulting and downright offensive things from time to time. I have, you have, we all have and at the end of the day, it would be unfair to judge any of us based on these incidents. What makes a person isn't their knee-jerk reactions and spur-of-the-moment stupidity, it's what they do and how they act on their day-to-day life. To cherry pick the moments when someone is at their worst, using that to attempt to vilify them by associating them with far worse ideals than their own by saying "he or she said that therefore they believe this and this and this" and declaring that to be their true self and that it's all they can be, no matter what they otherwise do is simply dishonest. Sure, it's easier to view people who disagree with you or at some point offended you as minions of evil out to destroy everything good and right in the world, but it's wrong. The "us vs them" attitude has never lead to anything constructive and if anything, it's downright toxic. To think that there is only one way to think right and to be moral and good and that anyone who deviates from that template or criticizes it is evil and deserves endless scorn is absurd and dangerous. This is why while Quinn did questionable things, to act like she's fair game and no attack on her is too harsh, let alone that defending her against abuse is wrong, is far worse than anything she might have done. This is why while what JonTron said is f'n stupid, he's not a monster for it and it's pretty obvious he doesn't have an agenda against anyone, but that doesn't mean he's right to have acted the way he did either. This is why if you dislike and/or disagree with Sarkeesian, that doesn't give you the right to send her death or rape threats and if you do like and/or agree with her, you need to keep in mind that she isn't above criticism, as long as it remains actual criticism and not insults. I am so, so very tired of the "pick a side, we're at war" attitude that seems to be everywhere these days. If a community wants to fight stereotypes, they have to make changes within it. They have to police themselves and take a stand against the worst of their own behavior. And when confronted with such behavior, they only ever have three options: to participate, to oppose, or to be complacent with. Two of these confirm the stereotype, those who oppose that behavior, they're the ones who should be spared. But they're often the ones that recognize the problem with the community as a whole and speak out against it as well. Those who fight against the injustice are the ones who deserve to be spared the stereotyping, those who are complacent with it, basically condoning the behavior, really don't. And yes, people are more complex then what they do at their worst, but I really don't care if they go to church 3 times a week and are an honor student at their local high school, if they treat people awfully when they think no one is watching, then that points to what their character is. It's not unfair to judge people based on how they treat other people they don't like, that's the ultimate test of character. If they themselves don't like being judged that way, then they can change their own behavior, because they're not forced to be incontrovertible dipshits.
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Post by SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman on Aug 28, 2014 8:40:05 GMT -5
If a community wants to fight stereotypes, they have to make changes within it. They have to police themselves and take a stand against the worst of their own behavior. And when confronted with such behavior, they only ever have three options: to participate, to oppose, or to be complacent with. Two of these confirm the stereotype, those who oppose that behavior, they're the ones who should be spared. But they're often the ones that recognize the problem with the community as a whole and speak out against it as well. Those who fight against the injustice are the ones who deserve to be spared the stereotyping, those who are complacent with it, basically condoning the behavior, really don't. And yes, people are more complex then what they do at their worst, but I really don't care if they go to church 3 times a week and are an honor student at their local high school, if they treat people awfully when they think no one is watching, then that points to what their character is. It's not unfair to judge people based on how they treat other people they don't like, that's the ultimate test of character. If they themselves don't like being judged that way, then they can change their own behavior, because they're not forced to be incontrovertible dipshits. See, that is exactly what I was talking about earlier. You're basically saying that anyone who doesn't fit YOUR moral standards is immediately wrong, immoral and deserves to be punished because they are of course on the other guys' side by no explicitly being on yours. I'm sorry but how is it condoning something to just not get involved? Does that mean that people who struggle for one cause but not another deserve scorn as well because, by your logic, they're condoning everything they're not actively fighting? How many horrible things do YOU condone by not actively fighting them? Also, according to your earlier post, the whole of the community should be blamed so according to your own words, even those who do fight injustices don't deserve to be "spared". Of course we should praise and encourage those who actively fight inequalities but to say that anyone who doesn't is exactly the kind of attitude that leads misogynistic idiots to send death threats to anyone who calls them out on their behaviour, because after all, anyone who isn't supporting them is condoning the extreme opposite, aren't they? This kind of movie logic bullshit where people can only see heroes and villains and anyone who isn't one is the other seriously needs to stop. It's bringing a lot of harm and nothing good, it completely removes any possibility of discussion, let alone constructive action. It seriously only exists so people can paint themselves as heroes without actually doing a damn thing. And I never said it's unfair to judge people based on how they treat others, I said judging others based on exceptional incidents rather than their general behaviour is and that judging people based on the communities they're a part of rather than their individuality is prejudiced, which it is, that's pretty much the very definition of prejudice.
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 28, 2014 8:49:12 GMT -5
No, what he's saying is that if you consider yourself and choose to be a part of a community like gaming, see something awful being done by a vocal group (even a vocal minority), don't agree with said awfulness, but then don't say/do a thing about, you are, by absolute definition, enabling that awful behavior.
This doesn't mean anybody can singlehandedly take on such awful behavior, but if the vast majority of the community even just says "This is unacceptable", that's a major step. If you don't say a thing or constantly look for ways to justify the behavior ("That shouldn't happen, BUT LOOK AT ALL THE AWFUL THINGS THIS PERSON DID SO INDIRECTLY IT'S OK IF IT HAPPENS"), you're part of the problem because you claim to recognize the problem, yet enable it.
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Crimson
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Post by Crimson on Aug 28, 2014 9:03:26 GMT -5
Hey guys how's it goi---
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 9:38:39 GMT -5
Both Zoe Quinn and JonTron seem like giant assholes, but that's kinda' off-topic.
On-topic, games journalism is a goddamn joke and has been for years. Having a code of ethics the way real journalism does would certainly help, but frankly the entire industry just needs a complete overhaul. Review scores don't matter, the reviews themselves don't actually tell you anything ("it's a truly cinematic experience!"), and the entire endeavor, regardless of what site you may be reading, comes off less like criticism and more like really wordy advertising.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Aug 28, 2014 9:48:11 GMT -5
I can barely keep up with the details of that story anymore. For me it's blended into just a bunch of socially stunted geeks yelling at each other.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 9:51:24 GMT -5
I don't like Anita Sarkeesian or Zoe Quinn whatsoever, but neither of them deserve any of the crap they're getting from people right now.
Zoe Quinn is being harassed by Adam Baldwin (who is notoriously sexist and homophobic) for crying out loud.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 10:01:19 GMT -5
I can barely keep up with the details of that story anymore. For me it's blended into just a bunch of socially stunted geeks yelling at each other. Haha sadly you're right
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 10:57:57 GMT -5
Everyone should have ethics.
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Post by Cyno on Aug 28, 2014 11:10:36 GMT -5
Yeah nah. [picture removed for size] [picture removed for size] twitter.com/JonTronShow/status/495783749142192129i.imgur.com/x5muSIP.png(image has an uncensored f bomb) Shooting for the lofty heights of being like Mike from Penny Arcade. twitter.com/sokareemie/status/496283293374226432JonTron fanboys bombard a girl that calls him out on shit with a bunch of racist stuff. Jon doesn't try and get them to stop. [picture removed for size] [picture removed for size] Thank god for Ragny. Long story short Freedom of Speech basically means "You can't tell me my shitty opinions well educated facts are awful because that hurts my feelings makes you an SJW shill and a fascist!" Oh, alright. Gotta admit I was strongly misinformed, my bad. Didn't see the full picture and I was obviously mistaken. That said, I still believe that while what JonTron said was genuinely stupid and somewhat offensive, it HAS been blown way out of proportion and people did try to unfairly label him as anti-this and anti-that. I also don't see how it's fair to blame Jon for the actions of his fans. I wouldd also like to point out that the "did Hitler give up?" comment was a reference to many people comparing him to Hitler because he joked about pitching a video game called "Schindler's List HD Remix" in his "Titenic" video to mock the idea of making silly video games based on serious movies about real-life tragic events. That's right, people labelled him an anti-Semite and compared him to Adolf freaking Hitler for saying it would be a BAD thing to make a game that would be frivolous about the holocaust. Don't get me wrong, that doesn't excuse his attitude here, I agree some of the stuff he said and the way he reacted to some comments was very shitty and he had a stupidity fit, with the "but there are things even worse than what I said going on!" argument being prodigiously dumb, but I can understand why he'd be jumpy about being accused of having an evil agenda. Just like I can understand people being jumpy about him using a slur. Point is: JonTron was stupid to react the way he did, many people who criticized him were stupid to try and label him as a hatemongerer and as always the decent, sensible people who criticized or defended him in a way that isn't ridiculous are buried in between. Oh, so he didn't make more than one tasteless, antisemitic joke, then. f*** him. When? Again, the only case I can find of him being accused of that is the Schindler's List thing. I don't really care what you think about a person as soon as it gets to people listing your address and saying they're going to kill your parents or graphically talk about how they want to rip you open, you have a community that deserves to be shit on with all the force of an army with food poisoning. Yes, good people may get harshly stereotyped for it as well, but unless the good people are willing to stand up against those whose responses harm their image, then they don't have a lot to complain about. I agree completely with your first point but not at all with your second. In fact, I pretty much disagree with your second point because I agree with the first: it's not okay to lash out on someone and treat them as a chew toy just because they did something wrong. You can't say "we need to stop stereotyping by stereotyping people", this is not how fighting fire with fire works. I mean, what's that supposed to achieve? It's just petty revenge. Obviously are countless people in the gaming community fighting injustices and struggling to ensure equality for all people, so why would they deserve to be, and I quote "shit on with all the force of an army with food poisoning"? We are just not going to end prejudice by encouraging prejudice in the other direction because it's still prejudice and it still encourages gratuitous hatred of entire groups just for belonging in said group. See, I think the problem with everything discussed here is the bipolar approach to morality, as in if you're not all-good then you're evil, which is a load of bullshit yet many people still cling on to it. People need to understand that there is no one side that is always right and fighting for good and no one side that is always wrong and fighting for evil. In reality, people are complex and generally more decent that we give them credit for. Yes, people say stupid, ignorant, insulting and downright offensive things from time to time. I have, you have, we all have and at the end of the day, it would be unfair to judge any of us based on these incidents. What makes a person isn't their knee-jerk reactions and spur-of-the-moment stupidity, it's what they do and how they act on their day-to-day life. To cherry pick the moments when someone is at their worst, using that to attempt to vilify them by associating them with far worse ideals than their own by saying "he or she said that therefore they believe this and this and this" and declaring that to be their true self and that it's all they can be, no matter what they otherwise do is simply dishonest. Sure, it's easier to view people who disagree with you or at some point offended you as minions of evil out to destroy everything good and right in the world, but it's wrong. The "us vs them" attitude has never lead to anything constructive and if anything, it's downright toxic. To think that there is only one way to think right and to be moral and good and that anyone who deviates from that template or criticizes it is evil and deserves endless scorn is absurd and dangerous. This is why while Quinn did questionable things, to act like she's fair game and no attack on her is too harsh, let alone that defending her against abuse is wrong, is far worse than anything she might have done. This is why while what JonTron said is f'n stupid, he's not a monster for it and it's pretty obvious he doesn't have an agenda against anyone, but that doesn't mean he's right to have acted the way he did either. This is why if you dislike and/or disagree with Sarkeesian, that doesn't give you the right to send her death or rape threats and if you do like and/or agree with her, you need to keep in mind that she isn't above criticism, as long as it remains actual criticism and not insults. I am so, so very tired of the "pick a side, we're at war" attitude that seems to be everywhere these days. JonTron made a Holocaust joke on his Twitter that said something like Hitler's kill:death ratio was MLG-tier.
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Post by Michael Coello on Aug 28, 2014 11:44:25 GMT -5
You know, all the talk of the harrassment that Quinn and Anita got were not deservied.......let me tell you a few things. 1. 100% of those are not serious or to be taken as a serious threat to either of them. They're trolls, done for the express written purpose of drawing attention. It's why we have the phrase "Don't Feed the Troll" on the net, because it was the best way to handle this kind of thing. 2. Those kind of responses are a small part of the opposition. People of various colors, sexes, and ideologies similar or different from theirs who also find their work lacking, and they get ignored to paint the entire opposition as these dudebro white male stereotype they and the gaming media paint all the detractors as. It's just that those responses are either ignored or lumped in with the troll response in order to not shift away the narrative of the victim getting abused by bullies everyone here seems to buy. Anita especially was controlling the conversation, as she is the one who controls who says what on her videos and sites, and has total control of what gets shown, and used the trolls responses to her benefit, painting the entire community as this hateful place over the actions of people designed to be hateful, and soak up all the damsel in distress points. Not even going into the hypocrisy, with Zoe's claim of being doxxed and hacked when she has shown no hesitation to do it herself, and Anita's cries of threats while endorsing one of her own. I'd agree that they don't deserve all the crap they get now. It's feeding them. They deserve worse. They deserve to face the actual critics and people who will tear down their straw-men argument and illogical fallacies, no hiding being their gender or victim complexes, and utterly disproved and destroyed in public with logic and common sense and sent running back to whatever hole they crawled out from.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 11:54:07 GMT -5
Not even going into the hypocrisy, with Zoe's claim of being doxxed and hacked when she has shown no hesitation to do it herself, and Anita's cries of threats while endorsing one of her own. Not getting into the other stuff because we already went back and forth in the last topic, but, dude. Are you really comparing Anita endorsing a joke fan-fic someone wrote about her with a guy digging up her address and threatening to kill her and her family? Seriously?
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