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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 12:00:57 GMT -5
Good idea. Women in general should treat all threats of bodily harm online as just trolls. They should just quit worrying about it altogether. Always good to see a man telling a woman how she should react to a threats from men.
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Post by Michael Coello on Aug 28, 2014 12:05:01 GMT -5
Good idea. Women in general should treat all threats of bodily harm online as just trolls. They should just quit worrying about it altogether. I've been threaten on the internet, even here and on my personal IM over my fandom of a certain wrestling fed. Sick shit that is on par with the shit she gets. And I'm still here. As well as pretty much all of the people who get harassed and doxxed online.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 12:09:59 GMT -5
Good idea. Women in general should treat all threats of bodily harm online as just trolls. They should just quit worrying about it altogether. I've been threaten on the internet, even here and on my personal IM over my fandom of a certain wrestling fed. Sick shit that is on par with the shit she gets. And I'm still here. As well as pretty much all of the people who get harassed and doxxed online. Yeah, but I don't think your experience as a male online and most women's experience in society is the same. Men and women experience the world very very differently. Also dismissing threats made by people is never a good idea - be they trolls or legit. People who make threats should always be taken seriously either as legit threats or as people who feel the need to hand out empty threats also need serious psychological help. The threats your recieved shouldn't have happened because those people have problems and those problems (by that I mean people thinking its OK to threaten people online) need to be addressed.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 12:14:34 GMT -5
I've been threaten on the internet, even here and on my personal IM over my fandom of a certain wrestling fed. Sick shit that is on par with the shit she gets. And I'm still here. As well as pretty much all of the people who get harassed and doxxed online. So you've had someone find out where you live, and then threaten to rape and murder your family? And you would wish this on someone else because you disagree with their opinion about sexism in video games? I think you're perhaps getting a bit too passionate about this particular argument, man.
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Post by Michael Coello on Aug 28, 2014 12:21:08 GMT -5
I've been threaten on the internet, even here and on my personal IM over my fandom of a certain wrestling fed. Sick shit that is on par with the shit she gets. And I'm still here. As well as pretty much all of the people who get harassed and doxxed online. Yeah, but I don't think your experience as a male online and most women's experience in society is the same. Men and women experience the world very very differently. Also dismissing threats made by people is never a good idea - be they trolls or legit. People who make threats should always be taken seriously either as legit threats or as people who feel the need to hand out empty threats also need serious psychological help. The threats your recieved shouldn't have happened because those people have problems and those problems (by that I mean people thinking its OK to threaten people online) need to be addressed. Really? "It's worse for women". That's such a cop out of an argument. It does nothing to actually move forward on the problem, and more to just have someone get more victim cred. It doesn't matter who has it worse, and more what can be done to make it better. And considering that the "threats" were how she got such attention, as well as her strategy in getting those comments pointing to her in the first place, I can say she's no victim.
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Post by Hakumental on Aug 28, 2014 12:21:21 GMT -5
A great many gaming journalists are likely aware that they are nothing more than glorified advertisement guys for the big companies.
It's a sobering realization. Imagine: you really are passionate about games, you want to be a part of the industry, you want to be on the ground when It Goes Down, be plugged in to this bizarre but captivating world where there's always something to talk about...and from minute one, you are nothing more than a corporate shill. You get to talk about the next epic release, but you can't say anything that might piss off the wrong people or, God forbid, cost your company. You're confined to language that does nothing but market, promote, and endorse. Your formerly blithe, personal Twitter slowly becomes embroidered with buzz and corporate promotion. The particular becomes the general. The passion of a gamer becomes the routine of a spokesperson.
No wonder to me that Kotaku, Giant Bomb, Rock-Paper-Shotgun, etc. have all succumbed to moralizing and cliquishness over the years. They occupy a field that crushes them with a sense of fleeting relevance and futility. At least this way, they can feel like people instead of drones.
TLDR - I guess my scorn for the majority of "gaming journalists" also comes with some sympathy. It's one more system in this world which can all too easily erode your individuality. Of all the factors behind "Quinnspiracy", I think this is one that deserves particular thought.
(Since it's come up: Zoe Quinn's a scumbag and I'm all for seeing her reputation go down in flames. Anita Sarkeesian, meanwhile, may be dull and unconvincing and probably a hustle, but she is probably not a bad person. The guys hurling abuse at her should be glad lightning bolts on this planet don't seek out dipshits.)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 12:31:21 GMT -5
Yeah, but I don't think your experience as a male online and most women's experience in society is the same. Men and women experience the world very very differently. Also dismissing threats made by people is never a good idea - be they trolls or legit. People who make threats should always be taken seriously either as legit threats or as people who feel the need to hand out empty threats also need serious psychological help. The threats your recieved shouldn't have happened because those people have problems and those problems (by that I mean people thinking its OK to threaten people online) need to be addressed. Really? "It's worse for women". That's such a cop out of an argument. It does nothing to actually move forward on the problem, and more to just have someone get more victim cred. It doesn't matter who has it worse, and more what can be done to make it better. And considering that the "threats" were how she got such attention, as well as her strategy in getting those comments pointing to her in the first place, I can say she's no victim. "its worse for women" isn't a cop-out. Its a societal reality. I know I can't make anyone see that women have it significantly worse than men in this society over a message board (because if someone could, the world would be a very different place) but that's just how I see it. But I disagree - it does matter who has it worse. Its always mattered in every sociological problem in the history of humanity. My point was just that people who threaten people online (be they empty threats or not) need serious psyhcological help and we shouldn't perpertuate a culture where they are just ignored or treated as trolls. We, as a society, shouldn't tolerate a general undercurrent of malicious, violence-laden threats (be they to men or women) just because "that's the internet." Whether or not she's a "victim" doesn't matter. The fact that people feel its ok to behave that way (threaten people) does matter. Its sad that any real discussion about sexism in video games gets overshadowed by threats because the story becomes the threats and not the actual issue of mysoginy in video games. Its easy to go "But she's not the victim because she instigate them" or whatever, but the issue is people shouldn't threaten other people. PEOPLE SHOULDN'T THREATEN OTHER PEOPLE. No matter what, especially over video games.
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Post by Zombie Mod is not a ghoul. on Aug 28, 2014 12:41:30 GMT -5
I've been threaten on the internet, even here and on my personal IM over my fandom of a certain wrestling fed. Sick shit that is on par with the shit she gets. And I'm still here. As well as pretty much all of the people who get harassed and doxxed online.did you bring this up with a mod at the time?
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Post by Michael Coello on Aug 28, 2014 12:43:56 GMT -5
I've been threaten on the internet, even here and on my personal IM over my fandom of a certain wrestling fed. Sick shit that is on par with the shit she gets. And I'm still here. As well as pretty much all of the people who get harassed and doxxed online. So you've had someone find out where you live, and then threaten to rape and murder your family? And you would wish this on someone else because you disagree with their opinion about sexism in video games? I think you're perhaps getting a bit too passionate about this particular argument, man. First off, you act like it's so out of the realm of possibility for me to get threatened? Secondly, I never said I wished that stuff on her, entirely because that kind of hate is the thing that she feeds on and helps to boost her victim status. It's why she came out of this like she did in the first place. What I want is some actual criticism and accountability. For her and all others like her to actually have to defend their position, without having to use the excuse of their gender or position to avoid it.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Aug 28, 2014 12:49:26 GMT -5
There has been some images about how Anita faked the threats.By the facts that the the screenshots were taken 12 seconds after they were finished,he know a lot of personal info for short time,there was no account in the screenshot(Theory:She faked it with the account,signed out,took th e screenshots).
If it is true or not,possible ,but it has been interesting to follow(also,she algo got alot of legit threats in the past,no doubt in these ones).But Zoe Quinn has been proven to have faked the harassment of wizardchan. The sad thing if it is true,it is easy to fake and it works f***ing well,i would not put it above some people.
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 28, 2014 12:58:25 GMT -5
There has been some images about how Anita faked the threats.By the facts that the the screenshots were taken 12 seconds after they were finished,he know a lot of personal info for short time,there was no account in the screenshot(Theory:She faked it with the account,signed out,took th e screenshots). If it is true or not,possible ,but it has been interesting to follow(also,she algo got alot of legit threats in the past,no doubt in these ones).But Zoe Quinn has been proven to have faked the harassment of wizardchan. The sad thing if it is true,it is easy to fake and it works f***ing well,i would not put it above some people. Uh...dude, just look at a couple of Twitter feeds pertaining to either of these issues. We could speculate about potential faked ones or something, but this shit is very, very real.
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Post by Michael Coello on Aug 28, 2014 13:03:35 GMT -5
I've been threaten on the internet, even here and on my personal IM over my fandom of a certain wrestling fed. Sick shit that is on par with the shit she gets. And I'm still here. As well as pretty much all of the people who get harassed and doxxed online.did you bring this up with a mod at the time? I actually did, though they couldn't do much for the IM stuff, as it's off site, though they did take care of the weird shit that happened on the forum.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 13:10:08 GMT -5
So you've had someone find out where you live, and then threaten to rape and murder your family? And you would wish this on someone else because you disagree with their opinion about sexism in video games? I think you're perhaps getting a bit too passionate about this particular argument, man. First off, you act like it's so out of the realm of possibility for me to get threatened? Secondly, I never said I wished that stuff on her, entirely because that kind of hate is the thing that she feeds on and helps to boost her victim status. It's why she came out of this like she did in the first place. What I want is some actual criticism and accountability. For her and all others like her to actually have to defend their position, without having to use the excuse of their gender or position to avoid it. I'm not saying it's outside the realm of possibility. I was legitimately asking, since you drew a comparison between a joke fan-fic and legitimate stalking and death threats; I wasn't sure which sort of harassment you had to deal with. If it's the latter kind, then that sucks and I'm sorry you had to go through that. If people in the games community were actually willing to provide legitimate criticism of her videos, then sure, I'd like to see a healthy debate about the issues Anita brings up. Thus far though, nobody has actually provided rebuttals that don't just devolve into shit-slinging. Countering "video games have a lot negative portrayals of women" with "she's a feminist pushing an agenda!" is an ad hominem attack that does nothing to rebuke her actual arguments. And also, this topic isn't about Anita. It's about the games journalism industry needing an overhaul. What Zoe Quinn may or may not have done to get a good review for Depression Quest isn't really any different than Ubisoft giving reviewers free tablets at a Watch Dogs press event. Both are scummy as hell practices, but one is seen as this egregious violation of journalistic integrity, while the other is just business as usual.
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Post by Michael Coello on Aug 28, 2014 13:26:23 GMT -5
If people in the games community were actually willing to provide legitimate criticism of her videos, then sure, I'd like to see a healthy debate about the issues Anita brings up. Thus far though, nobody has actually provided rebuttals that don't just devolve into shit-slinging. Countering "video games have a lot negative portrayals of women" with "she's a feminist pushing an agenda!" is an ad hominem attack that does nothing to rebuke her actual arguments. You're right that this is about Zoe and not Anita, but I'll say if you honestly have never seen a rebuttal of Anita that is not valid, you have not been looking hard enough. Actually, stuff like free gear from companies has not really been seen as the business as usual. Quite the opposite.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 13:55:22 GMT -5
Actually, stuff like free gear from companies has not really been seen as the business as usual. Quite the opposite. Yeah, I read that article back when it first came out and followed the aftermath. It didn't exactly do much to change the industry or even really get a serious dialogue going, though it really, really should have. Hell, even though he later backpedaled on it, Stephen Totilo of Kotaku flat out said that that article was "the same tired nonsense about games journalism that some folks love to carry on endlessly about." Meanwhile, Zoe Quinn may or may not have engaged in some shady practices to get a good review for Depression Quest, and she gets doxxed, harassed, and receives death threats. Seems like the reaction to her scandal may just be a little more vitriolic than past instances, though admittedly past instances didn't have an ex-boyfriend publicly airing his dirty laundry.
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jagilki
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Post by jagilki on Aug 28, 2014 14:05:32 GMT -5
Good idea. Women in general should treat all threats of bodily harm online as just trolls. They should just quit worrying about it altogether. Always good to see a man telling a woman how she should react to a threats from men. Obviously Womenz should get off the internet and back into the kitchen.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 14:41:53 GMT -5
So you've had someone find out where you live, and then threaten to rape and murder your family? And you would wish this on someone else because you disagree with their opinion about sexism in video games? I think you're perhaps getting a bit too passionate about this particular argument, man. First off, you act like it's so out of the realm of possibility for me to get threatened? Secondly, I never said I wished that stuff on her, entirely because that kind of hate is the thing that she feeds on and helps to boost her victim status. It's why she came out of this like she did in the first place. What I want is some actual criticism and accountability. For her and all others like her to actually have to defend their position, without having to use the excuse of their gender or position to avoid it. I get what you're saying, I think the problem people have with it is that you just have a different priority list as far as your problems with the harassment goes. Most people aren't concerned with the idea of actual criticism being drowned out by the harassment and just want the harassment addressed, or at least they just want that to be the primary concern (along with general problems regarding female harassment) . I don't think it has to be either/or, because caring more about one aspect doesn't mean you endorse the other (meaning, if you see the harassment alone as a problem, it doesn't mean you don't want legit criticisms to be voiced). Basically I'm not disagreeing with you, just trying to explain what I think the negative reaction is centered around. I know it seems silly to have to say this, but people seem to get uncomfortable when you don't outright say "I don't think death threads are acceptable". Obviously you don't think they are.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Aug 28, 2014 15:00:07 GMT -5
Apologies to the OP, but if this topic's gonna keep flaring up the way it has then we're probably finished here.
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Post by Mister Pigwell on Aug 28, 2014 15:02:38 GMT -5
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