|
Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Sept 16, 2014 21:23:40 GMT -5
I think Cena will forever be a heel in the eyes of some people. For the most part we cheer for Lesnar, he is our face, we boo Cena because he is our heel. Its subjective, we look at wrestling way different than any of the casual or 'less committed' fans. We are truly in bizarro world. The funny thing is, if WWE actually wrote Cena's behavior to match his credo and how he's promoted, the WWE and Cena's fans would at least have higher moral ground. If he was actually written and portrayed as the hero character they simply insist he is, WWE & Cena fans could simply accuse detractors of being purposely contrarian or hating for hate sake. But that's not the case. The character is so full of easily to dissect consistency holes that the detractors are almost always right in their deconstruction of it. It's weird. Reminds me of the story the Emperor's New Clothes. Some people just choose not to see things, as glaring as they are. I think they know this, but just don't want to do anything about it. From what we've seen with the Rock, CM Punk, Dolph Ziggler, and Daniel Bryan, WWE seems to like being able to have other people go to the "Cena Sucks" well for a cheap pop, even when they're talented enough that they don't need to. Notice that Cena's biggest career moments seem to involve other people being put over at his expense.
|
|
ayumidah
Wade Wilson
Don't bother pretending I seem fine, I like that I'm a mess
Posts: 26,948
Member is Online
|
Post by ayumidah on Sept 17, 2014 2:29:49 GMT -5
I think the reason he doesn't seem like too much of a heel is the fact that he's only ever gone after the big dogs. Cena, HHH, Taker, Big Show, Mark Henry. I think the only other guy he's attacked was The Miz, unless I'm missing some. WWE are billing him as this massive bully when he's more like the quiet, tough kid in school who beats up the bullies. 3MB (RIP)
|
|
Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,050
|
Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Sept 17, 2014 2:44:10 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm someone who does see Brock as the heel in the 'vicious monster' role. But Cena's booking make that so hard, if Cena had done a stretcher job, been away for a few weeks injured, then you could go with it. Brock was taunting Cena, knowing he'll never give up, so that he could inflict more pain and mess with his head as well as his body, so he's even more of a monster. Nope, Cena's back, taking cheap shots, threatening managers. I can see what they want, but they're just doing it so badly. The cheap shots should be a strategy in a match, not a random inconsequential part of the buildup. Threatening the puppetmaster, happened all the time in the 80s with Bobby Heenan, but Cena isn't walking that line where it's justified because he's escalating things, Heyman's not getting physically involved, just talking, Cena's the one bringing that in so he comes off worse. It's like they want to tell the 'Cena gets destroyed by the monster and has to go away and regroup story', but they just refuse to have Cena be off TV for more than a week (because kids are dumb and will stop liking him or something), so the entire storyline is crammed into a week, and Cena's back to this extra level of douchiness to combat Brock, but without us ever having seen him take time away to reflect and readjust his attitude. And yeah, Heyman is a different type of manager to the old school, 'I can't wait until the Hulkster gets his hands on you, buddy!' managers. Heyman doesn't distract the ref or jump up on the apron to get the babyface's attention. He doesn't grab a leg as the face is running the ropes. He just talks about how amazing Brock is, and then stands at ringside to watch him be amazing. So Cena is attacking for what? Because he can't beat Brock? Because Heyman said mean things? If the end result was to expose Cena as a hypocrite who is no longer worthy of respect, then it would be fine. But I think experience tells us that this is not on the cards. They seem to want Cena to have these levels of grey, but for no one to ever acknowledge it. He can do heelish stuff, and he can be a complete jerk to whoever he wants, but the announcers and the company still sell him to the audience as this unassailable paragon of all that is good about the WWE and America. That last paragraph made me think of something else that's different from back in the day. We don't have a proper heel commentator now, so we get pretty much universal praise of Cena and his actions. Back in the day you had a Heenan or Ventura who would just rip on Hulk Hogan, taking every little flaw and blowing it up, you'd have arguments and banter on commentary about it so it wasn't 24/7 Hogan is amazing. It made explaining why he was good useful because there was a counterpoint, you could have a debate, not just "he's awesome, that's it".
|
|
Jonathan Michaels
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Archduke of Levity
Here since TNA was still kinda okay
Posts: 18,158
|
Post by Jonathan Michaels on Sept 17, 2014 3:35:29 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm someone who does see Brock as the heel in the 'vicious monster' role. But Cena's booking make that so hard, if Cena had done a stretcher job, been away for a few weeks injured, then you could go with it. Brock was taunting Cena, knowing he'll never give up, so that he could inflict more pain and mess with his head as well as his body, so he's even more of a monster. Nope, Cena's back, taking cheap shots, threatening managers. I can see what they want, but they're just doing it so badly. The cheap shots should be a strategy in a match, not a random inconsequential part of the buildup. Threatening the puppetmaster, happened all the time in the 80s with Bobby Heenan, but Cena isn't walking that line where it's justified because he's escalating things, Heyman's not getting physically involved, just talking, Cena's the one bringing that in so he comes off worse. It's like they want to tell the 'Cena gets destroyed by the monster and has to go away and regroup story', but they just refuse to have Cena be off TV for more than a week (because kids are dumb and will stop liking him or something), so the entire storyline is crammed into a week, and Cena's back to this extra level of douchiness to combat Brock, but without us ever having seen him take time away to reflect and readjust his attitude. And yeah, Heyman is a different type of manager to the old school, 'I can't wait until the Hulkster gets his hands on you, buddy!' managers. Heyman doesn't distract the ref or jump up on the apron to get the babyface's attention. He doesn't grab a leg as the face is running the ropes. He just talks about how amazing Brock is, and then stands at ringside to watch him be amazing. So Cena is attacking for what? Because he can't beat Brock? Because Heyman said mean things? If the end result was to expose Cena as a hypocrite who is no longer worthy of respect, then it would be fine. But I think experience tells us that this is not on the cards. They seem to want Cena to have these levels of grey, but for no one to ever acknowledge it. He can do heelish stuff, and he can be a complete jerk to whoever he wants, but the announcers and the company still sell him to the audience as this unassailable paragon of all that is good about the WWE and America. Well, Heyman WAS that type of manager with Punk because Punk was being a weasel and that's what the situation called for. Heyman is not that guy now because he believes, ABSOLUTELY, in his guy, Brock Lesnar, which is why he turned on Punk over Lesnar. This is another reason why I think they should do a one month program with Lesnar VS. Miz, have Lesnar face a typical style heel, who uses every trick in the book to win, who tries absolutely everything he can to weasel the belt off Brock, but Lesnar manages to avoid the traps and beats Miz, which if done correctly can make both guys come out ahead. You make Lesnar somewhat more of a tweener, someone who indiscriminately destroys whoever gets in his way, I see no reason why Lesnar can't fight faces and heels at this point. And Miz loses but at least isn't buried because his weaselly tactics keep him in the fight longer than people expect. Plus, and I cannot stress this enough, it's better than watching Brock/Show again.
|
|
|
Post by Surfer Sandman on Sept 17, 2014 3:40:40 GMT -5
At this point, eff Cena.
Brock's simply too superior to Jorts Cena.
Cena can't see shit. He's worthless at this point.
|
|
|
Post by tigermaskxxxvii on Sept 17, 2014 11:38:10 GMT -5
WWE are billing him as this massive bully when he's more like the quiet, tough kid in school who beats up the bullies. I want to see WWE Films to remake My Bodyguard starring Paul Heyman and Brock Lesnar (although I guess in the movie Paul Heyman would be Brock Lesnar's client).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2014 13:52:46 GMT -5
I think there is serious money to be made in making Lesnar a babyface after he loses the title. Let his monster heel stuff run it course and let him be a face in the style The Shield were.
Can you imagine The Authority having a gang assault on him or Heyman or something one week and then that noise at the start of Lesnar's music kicks in when they are doing a promo or something? The place would shit a brick at the idea of Lesnar destroying them all on his own and it wouldn't even stretch logic to the point people complain because Brock is that dangerous.
Dude can simultaneously be the scariest heel ever and the most satisfying monster face all in one go.
|
|
Lancers
El Dandy
Oh you
Posts: 7,951
|
Post by Lancers on Sept 17, 2014 14:23:21 GMT -5
Cena also threatened a LAWSUIT if he didn't get a rematch. He gave Triple H the old 'I'll see you in court' routine if he didn't get what he thought was his.
He's absolutely been a heel through this program and it's hilarious that Vince and Co. don't even realize it. They really think he remains this sort of paragon of virtue, when all he has become is a bit of a bully.
The sad thing that it has to be reiterated repeatedly that Lesnar's general dislike for people as to why you shouldn't cheer for him. That's it. Nothing he's done recently is heelish in any way. He didn't even turn down a rematch. It's insanely backwards booking considering what the company's desired effect is.
|
|
|
Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Sept 17, 2014 16:06:57 GMT -5
Lol Brock is the face, he wanted to save his best friend just like he did when triple h attacked Paul, also when Punk threatened his friend. That's awesome. Also in total divas Cena is kinda heelish, a lot of times Nikki has been left crying, to a new viewer Cena comes off as an asshole. And come to think about it, he has treated his friends real bad, the usos defend Cena but when they're having problems John doesn't help them. He ruined Zack Ryder's life. Man John Cena is a bad person.
|
|
Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
|
Post by Bub (BLM) on Sept 17, 2014 17:34:49 GMT -5
Cena is so much like Hogan it's hilarious. He was the supposed "babyface", yet he'd do things like move in on Randy Savage's lady, and pull babyface Sid out of the Royal Rumble because he was a sore loser. Then Gorilla Monsoon would sit there and make stupid excuses for him. Difference is that Hogan always had Bobby Heenan to point out all his bullshit, so there was at least someone noticing it. With Cena, all three announcers sit there and act like the guy's not doing anything wrong. They need someone at that desk to ride Cena for being a hypocrite, just for the sake of acknowledgement.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2014 17:45:04 GMT -5
When was the last time Lesnar did anything at all that was heelish besides talk trash to people? I'm wanting to say it was cheating to beat Big Show at the Rumble, but even then I'm half-inclined to count that as a face move since it kept the match short.
|
|
Lancers
El Dandy
Oh you
Posts: 7,951
|
Post by Lancers on Sept 17, 2014 17:56:38 GMT -5
When was the last time Lesnar did anything at all that was heelish besides talk trash to people? I'm wanting to say it was cheating to beat Big Show at the Rumble, but even then I'm half-inclined to count that as a face move since it kept the match short. Hogan's birthday bash. Interrupted the thing. Then backed out of a fight with Cena when he came to the rescue. That was the last time they were in the roles the WWE had intended. Since Summerslam, it's flipped.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2014 18:27:42 GMT -5
Man John Cena is a bad person. Don't f*** with John Cena, he's a bad, bad man.
|
|
Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 235,492
|
Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Sept 17, 2014 18:47:26 GMT -5
Man John Cena is a bad person. Don't f*** with John Cena, he's a bad, bad man. He's a bad man!
Giving bad men...
Bad looks!
Prince amongst thieves and crooks!
Want bad women!
Bad cars!
Bad hoods!
Bad duels!
He's making his own Rules!!
|
|
ASYLUMHAUSEN
Fry's dog Seymour
GIFs | Shitposts | Fun
Posts: 24,372
|
Post by ASYLUMHAUSEN on Sept 17, 2014 20:15:31 GMT -5
I find Brock's loyalty and friendship to Heyman to be pretty much the best thing from a character standpoint. I'm to the point that I assume if someone abused Heyman in a bad way Brock would appear the next Raw, destroy everything, and end the show sacrificing said person with a dozen F5s. That and the fact he is a wrestler I totally believe could legit kill anybody on the roster at any time he choses if he wanted to are my favorite things about him.
|
|
RusevIsGod
AC Slater
Rusev is as strong as sonic is as Fast!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posts: 125
|
Post by RusevIsGod on Sept 17, 2014 20:49:44 GMT -5
I really, really ,really really don't like this run for Lesnar. It's not as good as his 2002 run but if he changed his name to Brock "Brocket" Lesnar I think he'd be over as hell. Especially since kids love toy rockets and Brock would hand out toy rockets to the kids in the front row. And he changes the name of the F5 to the Brocket Ship. Blast off!
|
|
|
Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Sept 17, 2014 21:21:56 GMT -5
Cena also threatened a LAWSUIT if he didn't get a rematch. He gave Triple H the old 'I'll see you in court' routine if he didn't get what he thought was his. He's absolutely been a heel through this program and it's hilarious that Vince and Co. don't even realize it. They really think he remains this sort of paragon of virtue, when all he has become is a bit of a bully. The sad thing that it has to be reiterated repeatedly that Lesnar's general dislike for people as to why you shouldn't cheer for him. That's it. Nothing he's done recently is heelish in any way. He didn't even turn down a rematch. It's insanely backwards booking considering what the company's desired effect is. Correct me if I'm wrong but Brock hasn't cheated in awhile right? I'm not counting Heyman interfering, but Brock himself breaking the rules, technically when he hit Big Show with the chair it was before the match took place (actually about 100% of the crowd at the rumble cheered), I'm not sure but isn't a heel suppose to do coward things to win? Like cheating? For all intent and purposes, Brock has never cheated, he says that he's gonna win and he does it, don't people like a winner? Also he never made fun of the fans or call them stupid like a heel is suppose to do.
I wonder how the casual viewers, or new kids watching raw for the first time, feel about Brock, here's a guy who wins impressively, and protects his best friend when he's in danger.
|
|
|
Post by Hit Girl on Sept 17, 2014 21:26:31 GMT -5
By sheer personality differences, Brock is more pleasant than Cena.
Cena is loud, obnoxious, relies on toilet humour and goofy voices
Lesnar comes across as a pretty quiet guy by comparison.
|
|
|
Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Sept 17, 2014 21:35:00 GMT -5
By sheer personality differences, Brock is more pleasant than Cena. Cena is loud, obnoxious, relies on toilet humour and goofy voices Lesnar comes across as a pretty quiet guy by comparison. This.
Cena tries to hard, but with Brock he kinda looks like the guy who's happy to be there, like smiling everytime Paul says something funny "I love it when you say that", or mouthing words when Heyman is cutting a promo.
Also Cena is the type of guy to hit the bars after the shows, while Brock goes to his farm to be with his family.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2014 6:24:28 GMT -5
By sheer personality differences, Brock is more pleasant than Cena. Cena is loud, obnoxious, relies on toilet humour and goofy voices Lesnar comes across as a pretty quiet guy by comparison. This.
Cena tries to hard, but with Brock he kinda looks like the guy who's happy to be there, like smiling everytime Paul says something funny "I love it when you say that", or mouthing words when Heyman is cutting a promo.
Also Cena is the type of guy to hit the bars after the shows, while Brock goes to his farm to be with his family.
Yeah, but when Cena goes to bars we get awesome videos of him beating up Spirit Squad members while yelling UMAAAAAAAAAGAAAAAA over and over again so it balances out.
|
|