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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Nov 1, 2014 4:19:39 GMT -5
I think people are slightly-underestimating how crazy over Jericho was after the phantom title win. He was always in the main event mix after that, and was at worst, the number 3 babyface of his time after Rock and Austin.
Sure, there were a lot of guys over in the Attitude Era, but few of them managed the longevity that Jericho has had.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2014 4:53:21 GMT -5
Jericho overrates himself but at the same time the WWE does as well. Look at the Network, they just had an entire episode of the Monday Night Wars dedicated to Jericho and how much of an impact he made. The episode ended with him getting the wins over Austin and Rock. He, not Mysterio, not Eddie, not Angle, but hey received an entire episode about him. He's a very great wrestler, done some amazing things and he's up there in the list. He's definitely above RVD that's for sure.
The thing with Jericho that many other wrestlers don't have is that he's crossed over. He has Fozzy but beyond that people see him in I Love the 80s (along with many other VH1 things), Dancing with the Stars, Larry King Live and many other things. The guy's been around the media.
I'll say he's on the second tier of wrestlers. He's not first tier but he's second. Not getting into who's all second tier but that fits with Jericho.
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repomark
Unicron
For Mash Get Smash
Posts: 3,049
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Post by repomark on Nov 1, 2014 6:05:57 GMT -5
I think his "george harrison" comment was simply to explain he was third most popular behind Austin and Rock, which I think after Foley "retired" in early 2000 is absolutely spot on up until Jericho turned heel in late 2001. That I don't think is as overstated a claim as it maybe initially comes across, but I agree he on occasion appears to over inflate his stardom. However a lot of that, especially in his books, is flourishes of language to make what he is saying more entertaining.
I also think it is interesting that you say he underperformed at Wrestlemania. I can't really think of him having an awful match. Off the top of my head:
Wm16 vs Angle vs Benoit - good match Wm17 vs William Regal - nice opener with slight botched finish Wm18 vs Triple H - never should have closed the show after Hogan and Rock but is not a bad match if a little stunted Wm19 vs HBK - a classic for me that stole the show Wm20 vs Christian - nice little match and angle Wm21 Money in the Bank - as the guy who invented the concept, and played a prominent role Wm25 vs snuka, piper and steamboat - was limited by the angle and rourke not fighting him but fun exchange with steamboat Wm26 vs Edge - a lot of hate for this much because Edge didnt win when he should have but again it is good Wm28 vs CM Punk - extremely underrated match Wm29 vs Fandango - did his best to get him over
Not a bad resume. I think the issue is that he has only really stole the show once (at wm19) and his matches generally have been lost in the shuffle beneath more prominent head line grabbers. By no means do I agree he has underperformed at mania though.
Never been a huge Jericho fan to be honest, he is one of these who I have never really got on the bandwagon with but also never hated. I enjoy his books and he has had some excellent matches, but overall I would agree he is more third tier - which brings me back to the George Harrison comparison he made.
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Post by benstudd on Nov 1, 2014 6:37:23 GMT -5
Jericho overrates himself but at the same time the WWE does as well. Look at the Network, they just had an entire episode of the Monday Night Wars dedicated to Jericho and how much of an impact he made. The episode ended with him getting the wins over Austin and Rock. He, not Mysterio, not Eddie, not Angle, but hey received an entire episode about him. He's a very great wrestler, done some amazing things and he's up there in the list. He's definitely above RVD that's for sure. The thing with Jericho that many other wrestlers don't have is that he's crossed over. He has Fozzy but beyond that people see him in I Love the 80s (along with many other VH1 things), Dancing with the Stars, Larry King Live and many other things. The guy's been around the media. I'll say he's on the second tier of wrestlers. He's not first tier but he's second. Not getting into who's all second tier but that fits with Jericho. The crossing over part doesn't do much to me. I mean he's like Stacy Keibler in a way, but it doesn't make you particularly great at anything. The true crossover talent was The Rock.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Nov 1, 2014 6:38:38 GMT -5
Pretty much every wrestler that's ever main evented in a major promotion has at some point overestimated how famous/over they are, it comes with the territory.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2014 6:38:44 GMT -5
He was much better in WCW imo. A lot of his WWE stuff has been a caricature of what he was in WCW, with the catchphrases maximized and the character itself minimized.
Also haven't at all liked his last two returns. He still wrestles a good match but his matches and storylines are so heat free and empty to me in recent years, with the result not being of any importance in most cases.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Nov 1, 2014 7:09:40 GMT -5
I think his "george harrison" comment was simply to explain he was third most popular behind Austin and Rock, which I think after Foley "retired" in early 2000 is absolutely spot on up until Jericho turned heel in late 2001. Except Undertaker, Triple H, Chyna, the Hardys, Lita, Kurt Angle and arguably Benoit were all more over and bigger stars than him in 2000/01. And that's his biggest year. He's upper-midcard and he's great there but he does a disservice to his career by trying to pretend he's bigger than he was.
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Juice
El Dandy
Wrong? Oh he can tell ya about being wrong.
I'm the one who raised you from perdition.
Posts: 8,172
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Post by Juice on Nov 1, 2014 7:43:58 GMT -5
WWE now acknowledge his spot. They just advertised that episode of MNW on the network. Claiming that Y2j moving to WWE was what gave them the win.
I agree Jericho is up there and is only not mentioned with the Austins and Rocks because of booking in their favor and not his. If he was given more opportunities early on with the big belt he would be.
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DjZonk
Don Corleone
Where's my cat?
Posts: 1,325
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Post by DjZonk on Nov 1, 2014 8:09:26 GMT -5
Jericho seems to know his place in wrestling. At the end of the day, Jericho is a huge star and he was a huge star at one of wrestling's biggest periods. He wasn't as big as Rock or Austin, but he had amazing matches and moments with both (more so Rock). He wasn't as good in the ring as Shawn Michaels, but he had some amazing matches with him.
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Post by Citizen Snips Has Left on Nov 1, 2014 8:54:29 GMT -5
WWE now acknowledge his spot. They just advertised that episode of MNW on the network. Claiming that Y2j moving to WWE was what gave them the win. Nitro's last ratings win was in October 1998. Jericho showed up on Raw in August 1999. How on Earth did they spin that one?
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Juice
El Dandy
Wrong? Oh he can tell ya about being wrong.
I'm the one who raised you from perdition.
Posts: 8,172
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Post by Juice on Nov 1, 2014 8:57:14 GMT -5
WWE now acknowledge his spot. They just advertised that episode of MNW on the network. Claiming that Y2j moving to WWE was what gave them the win. Nitro's last ratings win was in October 1998. Jericho showed up on Raw in August 1999. How on Earth did they spin that one? \Not sure man I didn't watch it, but it was advertised as such. Then Big Show was shown talking it up huge. I am pretty far behind on MNW at this point.
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Post by abjordans on Nov 1, 2014 9:14:39 GMT -5
I think his "george harrison" comment was simply to explain he was third most popular behind Austin and Rock, which I think after Foley "retired" in early 2000 is absolutely spot on up until Jericho turned heel in late 2001. That I don't think is as overstated a claim as it maybe initially comes across, but I agree he on occasion appears to over inflate his stardom. However a lot of that, especially in his books, is flourishes of language to make what he is saying more entertaining. I also think it is interesting that you say he underperformed at Wrestlemania. I can't really think of him having an awful match. Off the top of my head: Wm16 vs Angle vs Benoit - good match Wm17 vs William Regal - nice opener with slight botched finish Wm18 vs Triple H - never should have closed the show after Hogan and Rock but is not a bad match if a little stunted Wm19 vs HBK - a classic for me that stole the show Wm20 vs Christian - nice little match and angle Wm21 Money in the Bank - as the guy who invented the concept, and played a prominent role Wm25 vs snuka, piper and steamboat - was limited by the angle and rourke not fighting him but fun exchange with steamboat Wm26 vs Edge - a lot of hate for this much because Edge didnt win when he should have but again it is good Wm28 vs CM Punk - extremely underrated match Wm29 vs Fandango - did his best to get him over Not a bad resume. I think the issue is that he has only really stole the show once (at wm19) and his matches generally have been lost in the shuffle beneath more prominent head line grabbers. By no means do I agree he has underperformed at mania though. Never been a huge Jericho fan to be honest, he is one of these who I have never really got on the bandwagon with but also never hated. I enjoy his books and he has had some excellent matches, but overall I would agree he is more third tier - which brings me back to the George Harrison comparison he made. I said his "Main Events" underperformed. Which they have. He even says it in his books. Those chapters always end along the lines of "We didn't have the classic we hoped, but it was still pretty froot!"
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,292
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Post by The Ichi on Nov 1, 2014 9:20:44 GMT -5
I think his "george harrison" comment was simply to explain he was third most popular behind Austin and Rock, which I think after Foley "retired" in early 2000 is absolutely spot on up until Jericho turned heel in late 2001. Except Undertaker, Triple H, Chyna, the Hardys, Lita, Kurt Angle and arguably Benoit were all more over and bigger stars than him in 2000/01. And that's his biggest year. He's upper-midcard and he's great there but he does a disservice to his career by trying to pretend he's bigger than he was. I think it's safe to say you weren't watching in 2000, then. Jericho was absolutey the #2 babyface once Foley retired, and remained that way until Austin came back late 2000. HHH, Angle and Benoit were despised heels, and the Hardyz were more over as a tag team and hadn't had big singles runs yet at that point. Beyond that, no, he's not on the same tier as Rock/Austin/Taker/HHH, but this thread is selling him pretty damn short too. I think I just saw someone claim he's as popular as Taz. Ridiculous.
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Post by abjordans on Nov 1, 2014 9:27:36 GMT -5
I don't think his run in 2000 is what defines his career. 2008-09 is what he should and will be remembered for.. He was the default #2 face for part of 2000, but what was he doing? I was definitely watching and couldn't tell you. Aside from feuding with Angle and Benoit for the midcard belts.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Nov 1, 2014 9:34:26 GMT -5
Except Undertaker, Triple H, Chyna, the Hardys, Lita, Kurt Angle and arguably Benoit were all more over and bigger stars than him in 2000/01. And that's his biggest year. He's upper-midcard and he's great there but he does a disservice to his career by trying to pretend he's bigger than he was. I think it's safe to say you weren't watching in 2000, then. Jericho was absolutey the #2 babyface once Foley retired, and remained that way until Austin came back late 2000. HHH, Angle and Benoit were despised heels, and the Hardyz were more over as a tag team and hadn't had big singles runs yet at that point. Beyond that, no, he's not on the same tier as Rock/Austin/Taker/HHH, but this thread is selling him pretty damn short too. I think I just saw someone claim he's as popular as Taz. Ridiculous. Indeed I was, in fact it's my favourite year in wrestling. Just because those guys were heels doesn't mean they weren't popular. Angle and HHH in the summer were as popular every night as Jericho on that one night that everybody refers to. And his pop is as much attributed to a) super-heel HHH being beaten and b) an impromptu title change. The Hardys were certainly more popular than Jericho and were main eventing shows and in advertised PPV matches. Jericho was a very reliable upper mid-carder. If he WAS third most popular after Austin and Rock, he's far, far, far below them at a distant third. He's certainly not top five biggest stars of 2000/01. Most of that is down to his booking, however
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Post by cabbageboy on Nov 1, 2014 10:12:20 GMT -5
The irony of the whole Jericho vs. RVD debate on here to me is that while Jericho would be considered the bigger star...who is the more credible wrestler? As in a Best of Seven series, I think RVD would win it in like 5. People forget that during the Invasion RVD beat Jericho like a drum, mostly beat him when they wrestled in 2002-03, and only escaped in whatever unified title matches by DQ. Even character wise, can anyone imagine Van Dam picking up Stephanie's dog poop or doing half the embarrassing angles Jericho has done over the years?
As far as the star aspect, that mostly comes from WWE knowing exactly what they want to do with Jericho and never quite understanding what they had in RVD. RVD by his own admission has never been thrilled with the whole 20 minute promo sports entertainment aspect of WWE, even though his ECW run shows he can cut some really hilarious 2-3 minute type promos. Both are showmen, but Jericho's showmanship is more line with what WWE likes to feature and as such they occasionally would push Jericho in between his various burials.
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percymania
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Percymania will live forever! Oh yeah!
Posts: 17,296
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Post by percymania on Nov 1, 2014 11:20:36 GMT -5
I agree that Jericho inflates his own importance a bit, but that's what professional wrestlers are supposed to do.
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Post by Hit Girl on Nov 1, 2014 12:16:27 GMT -5
Of course
He's a larger than life wrestler
That's what he should be doing.
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Post by lesleymoon on Nov 1, 2014 12:27:33 GMT -5
Yeah, the ego with Jericho is (for the most part) just part of the character. But with him its done in a self depreciating and humorous way...just look at the title of the book, for goodness sake.
All wrestlers have an ego, and I dare say all of them overestimate their importance and impact in the grand scheme of things. Jericho is no different.
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Post by sybaku on Nov 1, 2014 12:33:12 GMT -5
Wrestler speaks highly of himself.
More on this unique and fascinating story at 11, back to you Chuck.
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