I Think Fans are Talking Past One Another

[HMARK Center]

Wouldn't mind hearing some thoughts on this:

The more I read here on the WWE section, the more I feel that a lot of people here aren't really getting what one another are saying, particularly as it pertains to frustrations with current WWE booking, the Bryan/Reigns situation, etc. As the title says, it seems a bit like talking past one another.

There's clearly a lot of annoyance right now, whether it's from fans toward WWE creative, from some fans toward other fans, etc. The question is, are we all fully aware of what the chief source of annoyance is? For example, I've seen people saying "Bryan fans are losing their minds, and it's silly", and while that's a point that can be argued for I do wonder if people saying that know why Bryan fans might feel the way they do right now.

My feeling that I've said elsewhere is that if Lesnar wasn't champ right now, and if he hadn't destroyed Cena, broken the streak, etc., and beating him wasn't the modern day equivalent of Hogan toppling Andre in '87, I don't think a lot of people would be that angry about Reigns getting a shot, even if he's not ready. Put Orton or somebody in there with the belt, let Reigns beat him, and I'm betting the reaction isn't so negative. Some have said the hate toward Roman is too strong, too, and that's definitely a valid argument, but are people more angry at Roman, or at Vince and company for putting roman in a bad situation, or putting Roman in a spot that doesn't make sense?

I also don't think a lot of people are genuinely of the mind that Bryan's on a one-way ticket to jobberdom; far from it. I think people are just unsettled that fans could be SO behind a guy like Bryan, and WWE could be SO stubborn in their refusal to roll with him in the top spot, and people are dreading him being in the same role guys like Jericho and others have been in for numerous years now - an upper card spot, sure, but never the spot where his talents and crowd reactions make him seem destined for.

Others might simply feel like the whole atmosphere has them down, that the overall tone and presentations of the shows just have them bored, tired, upset, whatever. Maybe a lack of a push for guys like Ziggler or Ambrose play into it. Is it too much of the Local Men Who Ruin Everything? Maybe all of them.

So consider this an unscientific study and a thread to clearly lay it all out: if you're annoyed at the way things are going right now, what's got you the most upset? Is it simply the nature of WWE at the moment; the particular booking heading into 'Mania; the Lesnar factor; other fans coming off as whiny or whatever; or hell, is it just a lack of Snitsky? Or, screw it all, are you A-OK right now with things and justing taking the good with the bad?

Go ahead and let this be the thread to just lay it all out there, so there's no confusion about where your opinion's at...until next show, when it'll all get jumbled again.

[kingbookermark]

You hit the nail on the head for me. I'm disappointed that the WWE doesn't realize the mega star they have in Bryan.

Reigns is getting handed something he has not earned.

[Professor Chaos]

I'm mostly annoyed how they've turned Ziggler and Ambrose into scrubs. Ambrose/Lesnar would've been my ideal main event for Mania.

[Oh Cry Me a Screwball]

The perception that there is even a correlation between crowd support, talent, talking ability, or anything that makes a superstar, and placement on the pecking order is DEAD.

The current number 1 contender is man that has had no good promos in his career, and up until last night, had yet to have a good singles match in his life. Roman Reigns has had bad matches with SETH ROLLINS in the past year. How is that even possible? Yet, he's in a spot that he is certainly not going to be worthy of for at least a year or two, because of nepotism.

Meanwhile, Daniel Bryan has been marginalized since returning from neck surgery. Dean Ambrose, who has eclipsed Roman in every single aspect of the business since the breakup of the Shield, is being portrayed as an idiot who pursues an IC title shot for weeks to get his picture on a wall, and then throws it out by getting DQ for not breaking on five. Dolph Ziggler, the hero of Team Cena, got pinned by Corporate Kane last night.

Why bother supporting any babyfaces when they just pick whoever they want?

[Starshine]

They'd lose nothing by waiting to push Reigns until next year. He's not their most over guy by quite a long shot, and on top of that there's nothing that shows he's ready to head the top of a card. Their determination to push someone so hard has never felt so manufactured and forced.

[Wolfman Rose]

I think Daniel Bryan fans do come off as a bit entitled. Look, I get it, the guy didn't get a proper reign last year, and that sucks, but he *did* get THE moment at WrestleMania 30. Two in fact, both in beating Triple H who rarely loses, and in winning the triple threat. Do I think Bryan should be one of the top guys on the card? Yes. But after last year, there was no way for Bryan to top it this year, so why shouldn't someone else get a chance.

Plus, I remember when this board was on-board with a Reigns push last year.

[AdamAFL was sooooo wrong]

The thing I feel is that I know my favourites can't always be on top but I wish they'd push somebody that the fans cared about. In late 2012 they pushed one of my least favourite wrestlers on the roster in Ryback but the guy was getting humongous reactions so I personally felt I didn't have a right to complain, they were pushing a guy who was getting big reactions even if I didn't care for him. This time round though it is not the same. I wanted Bryan to win the Rumble because he is my favourite but if Ziggler, Ambrose or any other wrestler that was getting big reactions had won I couldn't really have complained. I'd have still been disappointed but I wouldn't have had any right to complain because WWE has to appeal to a mass audience, not the whims of one individual in the north-east of England. But they didn't, they went with a guy that they liked rather than a guy the fans like and that's what I have a problem with.

The best comparison I can give is if Vince and co. had a real thing for Stardust and pushed him as a heel to go to the top. The guy (even though I like Cody) gets very little reaction but because the creative team love him in this alternate universe they push him irrespective of the fact that they've got actually over heels in the form of Rollins (who I also like) and Rusev (who I can't stand). If you need a heel to main event 'Mania you should push one of the latter two because the audience reacts to them rather than Stardust just because Vince is a fan. That's exactly what has happened with Reigns, he was over at one point but come the lead in to the Rumble it was clear he wasn't over enough anymore and they should have pushed somebody who was. It is frustrating that instead of catering to their audience they continue to cater to Vince's needs. That's not how a wrestling (or entertainment) company should operate.

[revolver86]

It's not so much anything with the booking, I'm just plain burnt out. Last year it looked like we might enter a new creative peak after WM 30, but much like the summer of Punk, they backslid to the norm real quick. It's gotten to the point where I can't even enjoy the good moments because they find a way to breed apathy, before you know it. I truly feel like WWE has one of the best rosters they've ever had, but the show itself is so tired and resting on it's laurels that I just don't care, anymore. I haven't consistently watched RAW since right after Survivor Series. Much like '93, 2001, and 2008, I'm probably going to take an extended leave from wrestling viewing. The sad part is it won't truly set until I've cut myself off from these forums, which I think I kind of need to do. I spend way too much time on this site and obsessing about wrestling and not living my life.

[BigBadZ]

Although I do believe Bryan not being pushed to the moon is a disservice, Reigns just doesn't have the fan support. I am 100% NOT against Reigns being the future, I'd just prefer to see him be built up through the ranks like Hart, HBK, Austin, Rock, Triple H, and Cena. If they want more this "controversial" crap where he gets half cheers and half boos, he'll become stale 10x faster than Cena and those cheers will die slower and slower.

That being said, I have no idea that they'll book him as a super baby face a la Cena and Hogan, but based on history, I'm betting they will.

[Bo Rida]

You've pretty much summed it up in the OP, it's one of those perfect storms of different factors.
The main issues are the way they've put everything into Brock and mistreated many of the wrestlers that fans seem to like most.

In theory whoever beats Brock is crowned the new top guy and if it was Bryan, Ziggler or Ambrose it could have been one of those era defining moments where it's effectively a clean slate.
Nexus, the summer of Punk, last years rumble debacle, various pushes getting derailed etc can all be largely forgotten about as they set about starting a new era.

Instead it appears WWE are repeating old mistakes with Reigns, the sacrifices to build Brock don't seem like they'll be worth the payoff and those who appeared to be breaking out of a rut like Ziggler at S.Series look like they'll be back spinning their wheels.

[Mozenrath]

None of these are a major concern for me. My biggest problem is a lack of vision for people on the undercard. I question if they realize at times where stars are meant to actually come from, since NXT shows some awareness of it, and the commentators and undercard know nothing of the f***ing sort.

"Vince, what do you-"
"Bury Ascension on commentary to your dying breath."
"Yessir."

[Johnny Flamingo]

I have two problems. One is that the booking was absolutely horrible at the Rumble. I get that. The way Reigns was booked leading to the Rumble was astonishingly bad. As a Reigns fan it pissed me off because it was amazing how badly they botched it.

On the other hand I do feel that some fans have basically trashed anyone that isn't going with the "Reigns sucks" narrative. I won't say "Brian" fans as I feel that is an unfair generalization. I also feel that despite having legitimate complaints about Reigns they have been exceptionally unfair towards him, his fans and towards the belief that somehow Bryan needs to main event mania.

It would be impossible to try and top Bryan's win last year so it would be foolish to try. When Bryan got injured it left WWE in a huge hole that was quite obvious and the product suffered due to a lack of readily available main eventers. Therefore I feel Reigns is a great person to push to the top and has the skills to be a main event player.

I believe that it is important to have "Big Guy" main event wrestler as they add to the dynamic. Lesnar won't be around forever and Kane and Big Show simply can't get it done anymore. I believe now is a good time to give Reigns that push and if people would give him a chance I believe they would be pleased with his work.

It is frustrating as it does feel like as a Reigns fan (or just someone who enjoys the show) you either have to shut up or basically defend yourself or feel under attack by the "entitled" fans. I don't believe these represent a vast majority of this board.

With that said, I definitely enjoy coming here and enjoy the conversation even if I am in the minority at the current time and I have issues with no one on here. Definitely the most passionate I've seen this board in a long time (going back to the Wrestlecrap days)

[Allie Kitsune]

I'm not sure if entitlement is the exact word I'd use, but it's close.

It's the incessant snark and the insinuation that anybody who might dare to not hate Reigns is a moronic sheep who happily swallows any shit that Vince shoves down their throats.

This shouldn't be a competition over who is the "smarter" or "more discerning" fan.

[CATCH_US IS the Conversation]

Feb 23, 2015 17:43:47 GMT -5 Wolfman Rose said:

I think Daniel Bryan fans do come off as a bit entitled. Look, I get it, the guy didn't get a proper reign last year, and that sucks, but he *did* get THE moment at WrestleMania 30. Two in fact, both in beating Triple H who rarely loses, and in winning the triple threat. Do I think Bryan should be one of the top guys on the card? Yes. But after last year, there was no way for Bryan to top it this year, so why shouldn't someone else get a chance.

Plus, I remember when this board was on-board with a Reigns push last year.

Then they need to find some other "big" match for Bryan to have. I would've been happy with maybe Bryan/Taker or Bryan/HHH, or Bryan/Lesnar if Lesnar weren't champ. But since everything is on Lesnar, whoever isn't wrestling Lesnar for the belt is getting crumbs. Bryan deserves more than crumbs.

[Kayfabe FAN don't want none]

Feb 23, 2015 17:33:54 GMT -5 Oh Cry Me a Screwball said:

The perception that there is even a correlation between crowd support, talent, talking ability, or anything that makes a superstar, and placement on the pecking order is DEAD.

The current number 1 contender is man that has had no good promos in his career, and up until last night, had yet to have a good singles match in his life. Roman Reigns has had bad matches with SETH ROLLINS in the past year. How is that even possible? Yet, he's in a spot that he is certainly not going to be worthy of for at least a year or two, because of nepotism.

Meanwhile, Daniel Bryan has been marginalized since returning from neck surgery. Dean Ambrose, who has eclipsed Roman in every single aspect of the business since the breakup of the Shield, is being portrayed as an idiot who pursues an IC title shot for weeks to get his picture on a wall, and then throws it out by getting DQ for not breaking on five. Dolph Ziggler, the hero of Team Cena, got pinned by Corporate Kane last night.

Why bother supporting any babyfaces when they just pick whoever they want?

This, this is the problem. You could draw all the money and sell all the tickets, but as long as the higher ups don't want you, you're not worth anything.

And that's what makes me wonder why they're behind Reigns. He's not a proven draw or performer, and they are people as and more over than him. He's not special or interesting, and that's my problem with Roman, to me, he doesn't have anything that grabs my attention. I don't care about him. People call him Cena V2 (isn't Sheamus V2?), but with Cena, i went from liking him a lot and hating him, and YEARS after i gave up on his gimmick. Cena reinvented himself form a rapper to a soldier to the never give up superguy, Roman is STILL working The Shield gimmick. Nothing about him changed at all. I honestly think old man Vince is behind him because of his bloodline and nothing more.

[Mayonnaise]

To me it is all but Bryan being the people's choice because I don't think he is nearly as close to it this year as last year. WWE has several people that the fans want, Bryan is one of them but they could go with Roman, Seth, Dean, Bray, Dolph or even Ryback with ease.

I like Reigns and think he'll be a star but from his return until now, they have taken everything that was fun about him and dropped it to shoehorn him into a Cena-type because that is what Vince wants to push. He went from short but simple promos about kicking people's asses to Looney Toons shit (thankfully that seems to be gone) and from a guy that is kicking ass to a guy having to overcome the odds and superman out of things like last night and his matches with Show. Which brings me to...

I don't want to see THIS Roman Reigns against Brock Lesnar. I've seen Brock dominate and destroy, I either want a true under dog story like you could do with Bryan or someone taking the fight to him like Shield Roman Reigns. I don't want Roman the Underdog that cannot wrestle going against the Odds, I mean Brock Lesnar. I had more than enough of that with Cena over the last 10 years.

Now these changes and the overall shit booking that has taken place since the Rumble has killed my interest in WWE and Wrestlemania. I imagine I'll come back around but, as I've said it in other threads, they turned Bryan into an Internet troll with his talk about Roman's ability, mental make up and everything else, while Roman is going on about how Bryan would have nothing without him (and was proven right). What am I supposed to like about these guys? Bryan is an egotistical asshole and Roman is an entitled prick. Right now I want Lesnar to walk out at Mania covered in their blood with that smirk he has, and the show go off the air.

And the fans, Jesus Christ on a Cupcake. This is more of a symptom of being a mod I think but I (and you as well HMark) see the absolute worst of it and some of it makes you really question the mental health of some people. I don't even think it is entitlement, it is just WWE has created, whether they meant to or not, a divided environment where if your guy is not the champ he is nothing. This goes all the way back to Cena coming over from Smackdown and Christian getting shafted. Fans went nuts that Christian didn't get a real chance against Cena and it went to everyone until they made it a part of his angle with Angle. Then with two top titles, it became worse since that meant your guy got denied twice. Since then they have pushed fans into a division and played it for all they could but it backfired last year when people didn't move on from Bryan for Big Show or Batista and while they caved for different reasons, fans took that "victory" and WWE ran with it this year when it wasn't even close to a pro-Bryan as last year. These crowds weren't pro-Bryan, they weren't pro-Roman, they wanted to move on get ready for Wrestlemania but WWE needed Roman to be in there with someone like Bryan who could up his game so they went back to trying to split the crowd and I don't think it worked, it hurt everything more than helped it.

[Pushed to the Moon]

I'm not a crazy D Bry fan and I don't hate Reigns but everything is just kinda boring right now.

Obvious outcomes of matches. Repetition of matches. Big Show and Kane. Screwy non finishes/DQs. Terrible commentary. Champions losing non title matches literally every week. Divas matches ending in roll ups. Repetition of matches. Big Show and Kane. Nauseatingly long opening promos. My favourites being neutered and/or losing all the time (Dolph, Ambrose). Repetition of Matches. Big Show and Kane.

[Toxik916]

The D-Bry circle jerk around here irritates me.

I tend to love guys the company gets behind like Cena and Reigns, and I feel everyone's constant bitching about them ruins my enjoyment of the show. I like Bryan, but I can't enjoy him because his die hard fans are super annoying when anyone other than him is in the main event.

[Neo: "The One" who CLAPS]

For me, it's not that they're just ignoring Bryan. Bryan still has a good place on the card and is protected.

It's that they are effing over and ignoring the reactions for Ambrose, Ziggler, and Ryback as well. Ziggler is now full on JTTS, which sucks, because the dude can flat out go and should be in the main event. Ambrose is a character who can be as huge as Austin, with great mic skills and in ring ability to match, and yet hes booked as a fool who gets in his own way. An Ryback is over as hell, yet gets no reward, even though he has improved in the ring and on the mic. WWE has three guaranteed stars here, and yet they cut the legs out from under them, and sit around wondering why they have a lack of star power. Absolutely stupid booking from a company who has a roster capable of a great product.

[Andrew is Good]

For me, I'm in the Bryan camp of being what the fans want and being ignored. He should be the top guy, because he gets the biggest reactions, and therefore if pushed properly, could make you the best money.

I feel WWE should just be more honest with their performers. They say, look, we don't see you as a top guy, so therefore we won't push you, and there is no such thing as a brass ring, you will be used as a utility player, this is your role, if you're ok with that, sign on. Performances don't matter, crowd reaction doesn't matter, nothing matters except what the office wants, and I feel if WWE were more honest, they'd be better off and may have better morale.