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Post by Hit Girl on Mar 31, 2015 21:39:03 GMT -5
I hate the Bellas, because I am sick and tired of the mean girls/bitch/"L-for-loser" forehead gesture bullshit. I've had enough of it, and them.
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 31, 2015 21:58:42 GMT -5
Now, if you do see a woman in the crowd at the show, and you happen to know her enough to have a conversation, ask her about her experiences going to a wrestling show by herself or with her friends (not with her boyfriend). Ask her what comments she's had to deal with, what chants she can't stand hearing, etc. Danielle Matheson over at Uproxx With Spandex did a great write-up about this, talking about being a passionate female wrestling fan, but often being subjective to awful experiences by predominantly male crowds. It's actually funny you mention this, because I was seated next to a female fan for Raw, in a Macho Man costume no less. It actually might have been Tyler Breeze, as she had the leg tassles. She HATED the Bellas with an absolute passion. I'm not going to speak for her in any fashion, so I don't know her exact feelings about that. However, when Paige did the spear through the ropes to Brie, she was really concerned about Paige, but almost relished the idea of Brie possibly hurt, at least in jest. Make no mistake, she may have hated the Bella Twins more than anyone else in that arena. What I can tell you is that I saw nothing of the sort when it came to harassing female fans, and I can say that I saw no abuse like that towards any female fans. I absolutely know it happens, but I was actually honest to go shocked with how many women were there for some of the events considering the very factual things you've said. I don't know if it means that there is a growing female fanbase, or what exactly it means. It may just mean that there are a lot of tolerating significant others, but they are there, and some even have the same feeling about the Bella Twins that the men do. I'm sure there were more like her, too; 'Mania weekend is when most of the biggest superfans show up, and it's not like there aren't any female superfans. I know a couple, they're 100% earnest in their fandom and aren't into it due to ex-boyfriends liking it or whatever, they're just big fans on their own. I'm sure we all know a few, and all have anecdotes about experiences with them. The point, though, remains that wrestling crowds have a long way to go before a lot more women would likely say "I want to be a part of that". Unfortunately, chants like the one directed at the women on Monday sends a message to them that they're not wanted, even if that isn't the intent of the people doing the chant.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 22:01:02 GMT -5
I hate the Bellas, because I am sick and tired of the mean girls/bitch/"L-for-loser" forehead gesture bullshit. I've had enough of it, and them. 100% agreed. They may have improved in-ring but they're still just an incredibly tired Lay-Cool ripoff (who themselves were a ripoff of the Beautiful People). That doesn't mean that crowds should chant misogynistic shit at them, though. "You suck, you...have sex with your husband! What a whore!" That sort of shit just makes wrestling fans look bad, in addition to making no sense as an insult.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Mar 31, 2015 22:06:09 GMT -5
It's actually funny you mention this, because I was seated next to a female fan for Raw, in a Macho Man costume no less. It actually might have been Tyler Breeze, as she had the leg tassles. She HATED the Bellas with an absolute passion. I'm not going to speak for her in any fashion, so I don't know her exact feelings about that. However, when Paige did the spear through the ropes to Brie, she was really concerned about Paige, but almost relished the idea of Brie possibly hurt, at least in jest. Make no mistake, she may have hated the Bella Twins more than anyone else in that arena. What I can tell you is that I saw nothing of the sort when it came to harassing female fans, and I can say that I saw no abuse like that towards any female fans. I absolutely know it happens, but I was actually honest to go shocked with how many women were there for some of the events considering the very factual things you've said. I don't know if it means that there is a growing female fanbase, or what exactly it means. It may just mean that there are a lot of tolerating significant others, but they are there, and some even have the same feeling about the Bella Twins that the men do. I'm sure there were more like her, too; 'Mania weekend is when most of the biggest superfans show up, and it's not like there aren't any female superfans. I know a couple, they're 100% earnest in their fandom and aren't into it due to ex-boyfriends liking it or whatever, they're just big fans on their own. I'm sure we all know a few, and all have anecdotes about experiences with them. The point, though, remains that wrestling crowds have a long way to go before a lot more women would likely say "I want to be a part of that". Unfortunately, chants like the one directed at the women on Monday sends a message to them that they're not wanted, even if that isn't the intent of the people doing the chant. I just want to say that I totally agree with a lot of what you are saying. The wrestling industry and fans alike have a long road to go, as does society in general. But while women may see those chants and feel a little miffed, I hope they also recognize the very significant support that we gave AJ, Paige, and Bayley on Raw. After all, there was a sizeable and very deserved LET'S GO DIVAS chant that has seemingly been ignored to make these arguments.
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LuchaBella
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Post by LuchaBella on Mar 31, 2015 22:06:41 GMT -5
Good call by a few people here: even if the guys chanting it didn't realize it, using "you suck Cena!" as an insult is a way to shame female sexuality. Nobody would chant "you eat Nikki!" at Cena, because having sex with Nikki Bella is seen as an accomplishment, and male "conquering" of an attractive woman is something to be lauded, not used as an insult. Meanwhile, the women get that treatment because female sexuality must be shameful, secretive, and only used to make men happy. It's a huge reason why this sucks. But there's a point that I feel is just as key, especially for pro wrestling. I see people saying "Hey, doesn't look like the women involved cared that much"...believe it or not, it really isn't about them. Go to any pro wrestling show these days, from WWE to your most local of local indy groups. Look around: what is the proportion of male fans to female fans present? Back in the old days of pro wrestling, just about into the 1980s or so, there was a significantly higher number of female fans out there. As time has gone on, wrestling has spent more and more time trying to appeal almost solely to a male demographic, and not surprisingly, this has led to a huge drop in the number of women who watch, buy tickets, or attend events. Now, if you do see a woman in the crowd at the show, and you happen to know her enough to have a conversation, ask her about her experiences going to a wrestling show by herself or with her friends (not with her boyfriend). Ask her what comments she's had to deal with, what chants she can't stand hearing, etc. Danielle Matheson over at Uproxx With Spandex did a great write-up about this, talking about being a passionate female wrestling fan, but often being subjective to awful experiences by predominantly male crowds. This isn't about insulting Nikki, Brie, Natty, or any other female wrestling personally, although that in and of itself is wrong, as well, and deserves to be called out; it's much more about whether or not wrestling fans are willing to create a welcoming environment for fans who aren't male, or straight male, for that matter (thankfully, anti-gay chants are nowhere near as prevalent anymore, it seems). I've said this in other threads, but pro wrestling in the United States is currently dying. This is not an exaggeration: while WWE can still occasionally draw 5 million viewers to Raw, its demographics remain very old (average viewer is 41 years old), it isn't drawing new, young fans, and it also isn't drawing fans who aren't typical guys you'd speak with on the Internet. Obviously female fans exist, but the environment they have to wade into now is not a pleasant one much of the time. And while WWE continues to sit around 4 million viewers, very, very few of those viewers are also watching other shows like TNA, Lucha Underground, ROH, etc., and their crowds are largely experiencing the same demographics issues. If pro wrestling is to survive in the US going forward, the tent needs to grow; the fan environment needs to open up to people who aren't just guys and Internet fans. If things stay the way they are, the average fan is going to be 45 years old...then 50...and there won't be a new crop of fans anywhere near large enough to replace them. So yeah, it's wrong to attempt to personally insult the women over having sex with their significant others, but even beyond that, it's both wrong and downright dangerous for the future of the industry to chant stuff and create a crowd environment that basically says "Female fans need not apply." Thank you.
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LuchaBella
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Post by LuchaBella on Mar 31, 2015 22:18:44 GMT -5
I'm sure there were more like her, too; 'Mania weekend is when most of the biggest superfans show up, and it's not like there aren't any female superfans. I know a couple, they're 100% earnest in their fandom and aren't into it due to ex-boyfriends liking it or whatever, they're just big fans on their own. I'm sure we all know a few, and all have anecdotes about experiences with them. The point, though, remains that wrestling crowds have a long way to go before a lot more women would likely say "I want to be a part of that". Unfortunately, chants like the one directed at the women on Monday sends a message to them that they're not wanted, even if that isn't the intent of the people doing the chant. I just want to say that I totally agree with a lot of what you are saying. The wrestling industry and fans alike have a long road to go, as does society in general. But while women may see those chants and feel a little miffed, I hope they also recognize the very significant support that we gave AJ, Paige, and Bayley on Raw. After all, there was a sizeable and very deserved LET'S GO DIVAS chant that has seemingly been ignored to make these arguments. So what you're saying is we female fans are supposed to go "WOW! Thank you! You slut shame only a few women instead of them all! You're sort of accepting us!!" Give me a break. The hate towards the Bella's is ridiculous.They are trying to improve in the ring despite the gimmick theyve been given. People hate them more because of their significant others and its stupid. Ive seen worse female wrestlers get better treatment.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Mar 31, 2015 22:30:10 GMT -5
I just want to say that I totally agree with a lot of what you are saying. The wrestling industry and fans alike have a long road to go, as does society in general. But while women may see those chants and feel a little miffed, I hope they also recognize the very significant support that we gave AJ, Paige, and Bayley on Raw. After all, there was a sizeable and very deserved LET'S GO DIVAS chant that has seemingly been ignored to make these arguments. So what you're saying is we female fans are supposed to go "WOW! Thank you! You slut shame only a few women instead of them all! You're sort of accepting us!!" Give me a break. The hate towards the Bella's is ridiculous.They are trying to improve in the ring despite the gimmick theyve been given. People hate them more because of their significant others and its stupid. Ive seen worse female wrestlers get better treatment. Not at all. Just the same as Triple H did not really sleep his way to the top by marrying Stephanie, the Bellas did not really sleep to the top by marrying Daniel Bryan and John Cena. I swear I actually quite enjoy Nikki Bella's ring work in the past few months, so it's not out of malice towards them, at least for me. However, this perception that both the Bellas and Triple H married/dated well has blended into their characters, and that's where the chants for the Bellas come in. At the very least, if Triple H had come out after the Bellas segment, there probably would have been You Suck Stephanie chants.
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kidglov3s
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Post by kidglov3s on Mar 31, 2015 22:58:29 GMT -5
So what you're saying is we female fans are supposed to go "WOW! Thank you! You slut shame only a few women instead of them all! You're sort of accepting us!!" Give me a break. The hate towards the Bella's is ridiculous.They are trying to improve in the ring despite the gimmick theyve been given. People hate them more because of their significant others and its stupid. Ive seen worse female wrestlers get better treatment. Not at all. Just the same as Triple H did not really sleep his way to the top by marrying Stephanie, the Bellas did not really sleep to the top by marrying Daniel Bryan and John Cena. I swear I actually quite enjoy Nikki Bella's ring work in the past few months, so it's not out of malice towards them, at least for me. However, this perception that both the Bellas and Triple H married/dated well has blended into their characters, and that's where the chants for the Bellas come in. At the very least, if Triple H had come out after the Bellas segment, there probably would have been You Suck Stephanie chants. I mean this as nicely as possible. I really think the more you rationalize/defend this stuff, the worse you're coming across.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Mar 31, 2015 23:04:15 GMT -5
Not at all. Just the same as Triple H did not really sleep his way to the top by marrying Stephanie, the Bellas did not really sleep to the top by marrying Daniel Bryan and John Cena. I swear I actually quite enjoy Nikki Bella's ring work in the past few months, so it's not out of malice towards them, at least for me. However, this perception that both the Bellas and Triple H married/dated well has blended into their characters, and that's where the chants for the Bellas come in. At the very least, if Triple H had come out after the Bellas segment, there probably would have been You Suck Stephanie chants. I mean this as nicely as possible. I really think the more you rationalize/defend this stuff, the worse you're coming across. Fair enough. I think I've made whatever point I can make by now.
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Post by Hit Girl on Mar 31, 2015 23:12:20 GMT -5
I hate the Bellas, because I am sick and tired of the mean girls/bitch/"L-for-loser" forehead gesture bullshit. I've had enough of it, and them. 100% agreed. They may have improved in-ring but they're still just an incredibly tired Lay-Cool ripoff (who themselves were a ripoff of the Beautiful People). That doesn't mean that crowds should chant misogynistic shit at them, though. "You suck, you...have sex with your husband! What a whore!" That sort of shit just makes wrestling fans look bad, in addition to making no sense as an insult. True, but like I've said, WWE are just as guilty as encouraging women to be disrespected, so it's no surprise the audience follows that shit. Keep in mind, hero-to-all-children, hustle loyalty and respect, standing-on-the-front-lines-with-the-troops John Cena, slut shamed Eve, after kissing her.
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mizerable
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Post by mizerable on Apr 1, 2015 0:24:40 GMT -5
I can't add anything that hasn't already been said, but what a misogynistic display from the fans.
There's ways of showing disinterest rather than going this route.
I've defended fans in the past for hijacking the show, but when there's intent there no matter what happens, then it's clearly not worth defending because the fans would have shit all over ANYTHING.
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schma
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Post by schma on Apr 1, 2015 0:35:58 GMT -5
The parts of the match I saw on the WWE website, I didn't notice those chants thankfully. I actually enjoyed the divas match last night and this one seemed decent. They did everything they could with the time they had at Wrestlemania and they made it count. Paige is fantastic but I also am really enjoying Nikki's run as a powerhouse wrestler. Ever move she did even just her strikes looked like what you'd expect from a power wrestler. She's definitely come a long way. My only negative comment about the divas match at wrestlemania is AJ looked a bit awkward when running around. Apart from that they did a great job I think. Give those six women more time and better stories and you have the beginnings of a fantastic division.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Apr 1, 2015 0:45:14 GMT -5
If the men got chants about sex with their significant others then there'd be no issue. They didn't. The pathetic crowd attempted to "shame" women for having sex. And people wonder why WWE doesn't listen to its fans.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Apr 1, 2015 3:34:00 GMT -5
If the men got chants about sex with their significant others then there'd be no issue. They didn't. The pathetic crowd attempted to "shame" women for having sex. And people wonder why WWE doesn't listen to its fans. The crowd wouldn't have done those chants at Cena or Bryan, because there is no perception (as wrong as it is) that they attained their status through their relationships. They wouldn't have gotten "You Eat __________" chants. On the other hand, Tyson Kidd's entire push was built on crowds chanting "Nattie's Husband" at him.
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Abdullah
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Post by Abdullah on Apr 1, 2015 4:54:23 GMT -5
The posts about the 'perception' of the Bellas are reaching. Is that why, since Total Divas began in 2013, it's the first time they've gotten this chant?
If Paige was with a well-known WWE star and she got those chants, this thread probably would have stopped at around the forth page. Because, y'know, it would be so awful to heckle such an accomplished wrestler.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Apr 1, 2015 6:03:48 GMT -5
If the men got chants about sex with their significant others then there'd be no issue. They didn't. The pathetic crowd attempted to "shame" women for having sex. And people wonder why WWE doesn't listen to its fans. The crowd wouldn't have done those chants at Cena or Bryan, because there is no perception (as wrong as it is) that they attained their status through their relationships. They wouldn't have gotten "You Eat __________" chants. On the other hand, Tyson Kidd's entire push was built on crowds chanting "Nattie's Husband" at him. True. We did have "Nattie's Husband"which is probably the closed to this. Less Crass but same objective.
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Post by avenger on Apr 1, 2015 9:17:53 GMT -5
The chants were somewhat extreme, but when you market a reality show around your relationship with the poster boys of the company, that's a risk you're gonna deal with. Notice how it only happened with the Total Divas and the AJ one barely lasted, considering her and Punk are not like "LOOK AT US, WE'RE DATING/MARRIED, WATCH IT ON E EVERY SUNDAY", while Paige is dating... Oh... Uh yeah, they're not gonna show that on TD. But to my main point, when you're throwing your relationship into the open like the TDs are, there's gonna be douches that do that. They didn't seem particularly fazed by it anyway. Thankfully so, because it was a good match. Saying you were more embarrassed by those chants than you were of Katie Vick (a man simulating sex on a mannequin while wearing a mask) seems unrealistic, if that's what you're asking me. Not saying that's not how you feel, or that you don't have the right to feel that way, but hyperbole can cause people to question sincerity some times. And the Attitude Era and even into the mid-2000's was filled with this sort of crap. Why do you expect wrestling fans to suddenly become feminists and accepting when they' and the company itself have spent 30 years being xenophobic and sexist? That's what you get for shitty reality shits shows like "Total Divas". They are in LOLWWE and earn good money, they need to deal with LOLWWE being LOLWWE. I'm not condoning the chants, far from it, people should know better, especially the so-called 'smart' fans. However, WWE has bred this mentality through years and years of treating women awfully. And this particular situation is borne out of having their women's division basically exist to promote a reality show which uses TNA's pervy camera crew from the late 2000s, where almost everyone is portrayed as a bitchy, shallow, insecure horrible stereotype of a woman who is defined by who their boyfriend or husband is and 90% of storylines involve their sex life. I've said it before and I'll say it again; they'll never get these women treated seriously as athletes when Total Divas is there to demean and stereotype them at every turn, especially when they have next to no character development outside of it and so their only distinguishing trait is which male wrestler they're sleeping with. WWE have contributed to this sort of sexism by consistently booking the Bellas to be portrayed as slags. During the guest host days, barely a week went by where the Bellas weren't offering themselves to them. 100% agreed. They may have improved in-ring but they're still just an incredibly tired Lay-Cool ripoff (who themselves were a ripoff of the Beautiful People). That doesn't mean that crowds should chant misogynistic shit at them, though. "You suck, you...have sex with your husband! What a whore!" That sort of shit just makes wrestling fans look bad, in addition to making no sense as an insult. True, but like I've said, WWE are just as guilty as encouraging women to be disrespected, so it's no surprise the audience follows that shit. Keep in mind, hero-to-all-children, hustle loyalty and respect, standing-on-the-front-lines-with-the-troops John Cena, slut shamed Eve, after kissing her. Throughout the Roman Reigns push we've seen people say that they won't take what the WWE forces down their throat, and that people pay their money, they can chant what they want, but now they're chanting this it's the WWE's fault. Nope. not having it. They can think for themselves, they're not misogynistic because of what the WWE tells them. They're misogynistic because they want to be.
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Post by Hit Girl on Apr 1, 2015 10:20:37 GMT -5
The chants were somewhat extreme, but when you market a reality show around your relationship with the poster boys of the company, that's a risk you're gonna deal with. Notice how it only happened with the Total Divas and the AJ one barely lasted, considering her and Punk are not like "LOOK AT US, WE'RE DATING/MARRIED, WATCH IT ON E EVERY SUNDAY", while Paige is dating... {Spoiler}{Spoiler} Oh... Uh yeah, they're not gonna show that on TD. But to my main point, when you're throwing your relationship into the open like the TDs are, there's gonna be douches that do that. They didn't seem particularly fazed by it anyway. Thankfully so, because it was a good match. Saying you were more embarrassed by those chants than you were of Katie Vick (a man simulating sex on a mannequin while wearing a mask) seems unrealistic, if that's what you're asking me. Not saying that's not how you feel, or that you don't have the right to feel that way, but hyperbole can cause people to question sincerity some times. And the Attitude Era and even into the mid-2000's was filled with this sort of crap. Why do you expect wrestling fans to suddenly become feminists and accepting when they' and the company itself have spent 30 years being xenophobic and sexist? That's what you get for shitty reality shits shows like "Total Divas". They are in LOLWWE and earn good money, they need to deal with LOLWWE being LOLWWE. I'm not condoning the chants, far from it, people should know better, especially the so-called 'smart' fans. However, WWE has bred this mentality through years and years of treating women awfully. And this particular situation is borne out of having their women's division basically exist to promote a reality show which uses TNA's pervy camera crew from the late 2000s, where almost everyone is portrayed as a bitchy, shallow, insecure horrible stereotype of a woman who is defined by who their boyfriend or husband is and 90% of storylines involve their sex life. I've said it before and I'll say it again; they'll never get these women treated seriously as athletes when Total Divas is there to demean and stereotype them at every turn, especially when they have next to no character development outside of it and so their only distinguishing trait is which male wrestler they're sleeping with. WWE have contributed to this sort of sexism by consistently booking the Bellas to be portrayed as slags. During the guest host days, barely a week went by where the Bellas weren't offering themselves to them. True, but like I've said, WWE are just as guilty as encouraging women to be disrespected, so it's no surprise the audience follows that shit. Keep in mind, hero-to-all-children, hustle loyalty and respect, standing-on-the-front-lines-with-the-troops John Cena, slut shamed Eve, after kissing her. Throughout the Roman Reigns push we've seen people say that they won't take what the WWE forces down their throat, and that people pay their money, they can chant what they want, but now they're chanting this it's the WWE's fault. Nope. not having it. They can think for themselves, they're not misogynistic because of what the WWE tells them. They're misogynistic because they want to be. Because ALL the same people who object to Roman Reigns' push must therefore be the ones chanting sexist stuff at the Divas, yes?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2015 10:28:52 GMT -5
I still don't get the chants. Where is the insult in chanting "you pleasure your partner"? Yes. They do. By choice. Because they love the person. Woooooah.
Can you imagine if the crowd tried some sort of "you bang Nikki" thing with Cena? He'd have eviscerated the crowd with responses because - he bangs Nikki and lots of men wish they could.
It's the most baffling insult I can think of - taunting someone on their ability to sexually satisfy their partner positively. Real ego damage there...
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Post by Mid-Carder on Apr 1, 2015 12:13:19 GMT -5
If the men got chants about sex with their significant others then there'd be no issue. They didn't. The pathetic crowd attempted to "shame" women for having sex. And people wonder why WWE doesn't listen to its fans. The crowd wouldn't have done those chants at Cena or Bryan, because there is no perception (as wrong as it is) that they attained their status through their relationships. They wouldn't have gotten "You Eat __________" chants. On the other hand, Tyson Kidd's entire push was built on crowds chanting "Nattie's Husband" at him. But is it attempting to shame him for having sex with her?
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