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Post by SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman on Jun 16, 2015 2:38:15 GMT -5
Okay, so am I suddenly supposed to feel sorry for Cersei and be all mad at those meaner pants religious guys, because that's not going to happen. This is the same woman who stood by and did nothing but grin her little shit eating grin when her doofus son beheaded Ned Stark, had a dozen or more completely innocent and blameless children ripped from their mothers arms and murdered, treated her little brother like dog shit all his life, screwed her brother producing said doofus son, helped destroy her father's precious family legacy, constantly betrayed and undermined her other son's power and ruler ship over a petty stupid ass grudge/jealousy she had with his wife, and most of this was all done because some loser gypsy woman quickly told her some made up on the fly bull shit prophesy when she was a little girl. Even the people who were yelling and calling her names were all being beaten and punished by those asshole priests so many of them "got what was coming to them" for yelling and throwing stuff. I don't feel sorry for her. Not even a tiny bit. In fact, every scene where she's suffering I find myself smiling, cheering, and being generally happy. This ISN'T a good character with some redeeming quality thrown into a bad situation or anything. All we ever get with Cersei is she "loves her children." Well, one child was a useless f*** (Tommen), one child we never even knew anything about one way or the other (Mycella), and the last and her favorite was...for a good long time...the most hated and despised little prick on the entire show (Joffrey). None of this is moving me. All I see is a horrible person sort of getting what she should be getting for all her evil and wickedness. If the show writers want me to feel bad for her, they're failing miserably. That's a problem I've had with the show from the start, the writers (no idea if it's a GRRM thing or not) seem to strongly adhere to the thought that a bad person having bad things happen to them redeems them for some reason. No, it just means there's double the amount of bad people. I can only imagine this is the result of the logical fallacy that a conflict always has a good side and a bad side so if you're not the worst, you're immediately the good guy. That is rubbish. I had the same problem with Jaime's characterization (having my hand cut off makes up for all the betraying, murdering and raping I've been doing, right? Right?) as well as Theon (although to be fair, his torturing was so bad I can at least agree that even he doesn't deserve this. Also they've started having him actually do noble, if not heroic things, which helps).
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Post by Cela on Jun 16, 2015 2:40:16 GMT -5
Um, no. Maggie's prophecy to young Cersei was dead on. The more and more Cersei tries to circumvent it, she fulfills it. It's a great core element to her character. Not to be a booksnob, but knowing that all of her children would die before her has always been a "I hate that bitch, but she'll get whats coming to her" sweetpill anytime she would do her heinous shit in the show. Cersei won't win in the end. She can't. She is subject to the valonqor still, and its what makes her character. Watching her spin her wheels trying to avoid her fate is what to a viewer/reader gives her depth. All I know is I don't want the person who kills her to NOT be Tyrion. A lot of fans are rooting for him to kill her off, but I don't want it to be him at all. I don't want to give that bitch the satisfaction of being right. Anyone can kill Cersei, but I just couldn't stand it to be Tyrion. It's pretty blatant that it won't be Tyrion. Way too obvious. And the prophecy shows one of Martin's weaker points as a writer. He writes great characters that have complex goals, but then needs to explain why they are this way, so he picks "A wizard said it" or "I had a bad dream."
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Post by Cela on Jun 16, 2015 2:42:59 GMT -5
Okay, so am I suddenly supposed to feel sorry for Cersei and be all mad at those meaner pants religious guys, because that's not going to happen. This is the same woman who stood by and did nothing but grin her little shit eating grin when her doofus son beheaded Ned Stark, had a dozen or more completely innocent and blameless children ripped from their mothers arms and murdered, treated her little brother like dog shit all his life, screwed her brother producing said doofus son, helped destroy her father's precious family legacy, constantly betrayed and undermined her other son's power and ruler ship over a petty stupid ass grudge/jealousy she had with his wife, and most of this was all done because some loser gypsy woman quickly told her some made up on the fly bull shit prophesy when she was a little girl. Even the people who were yelling and calling her names were all being beaten and punished by those asshole priests so many of them "got what was coming to them" for yelling and throwing stuff. I don't feel sorry for her. Not even a tiny bit. In fact, every scene where she's suffering I find myself smiling, cheering, and being generally happy. This ISN'T a good character with some redeeming quality thrown into a bad situation or anything. All we ever get with Cersei is she "loves her children." Well, one child was a useless f*** (Tommen), one child we never even knew anything about one way or the other (Mycella), and the last and her favorite was...for a good long time...the most hated and despised little prick on the entire show (Joffrey). None of this is moving me. All I see is a horrible person sort of getting what she should be getting for all her evil and wickedness. If the show writers want me to feel bad for her, they're failing miserably. That's a problem I've had with the show from the start, the writers (no idea if it's a GRRM thing or not) seem to strongly adhere to the thought that a bad person having bad things happen to them redeems them for some reason. No, it just means there's double the amount of bad people. I can only imagine this is the result of the logical fallacy that a conflict always has a good side and a bad side so if you're not the worst, you're immediately the good guy. That is rubbish. I had the same problem with Jaime's characterization (having my hand cut off makes up for all the betraying, murdering and raping I've been doing, right? Right?) as well as Theon (although to be fair, his torturing was so bad I can at least agree that even he doesn't deserve this. Also they've started having him actually do noble, if not heroic things, which helps). I was surprised I came around on Theon. But, the dude definitely had a penance walk. And I was also surprised how quick I came around on Jamie. He was a great heel, and his motivations for being that heel made him understandable. Also, he was quite humbled by the hand loss, and changed as a character. So... yay, face turn. Also, what rape? He never raped in the books because he was committed to one woman, and the show rape was debatable. Will grant betrayal and murder. Cersei's still a jerk though. And Joffrey. And Dany.
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Post by SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman on Jun 16, 2015 3:56:43 GMT -5
That's a problem I've had with the show from the start, the writers (no idea if it's a GRRM thing or not) seem to strongly adhere to the thought that a bad person having bad things happen to them redeems them for some reason. No, it just means there's double the amount of bad people. I can only imagine this is the result of the logical fallacy that a conflict always has a good side and a bad side so if you're not the worst, you're immediately the good guy. That is rubbish. I had the same problem with Jaime's characterization (having my hand cut off makes up for all the betraying, murdering and raping I've been doing, right? Right?) as well as Theon (although to be fair, his torturing was so bad I can at least agree that even he doesn't deserve this. Also they've started having him actually do noble, if not heroic things, which helps). I was surprised I came around on Theon. But, the dude definitely had a penance walk. And I was also surprised how quick I came around on Jamie. He was a great heel, and his motivations for being that heel made him understandable. Also, he was quite humbled by the hand loss, and changed as a character. So... yay, face turn. Also, what rape? He never raped in the books because he was committed to one woman, and the show rape was debatable. Will grant betrayal and murder. Cersei's still a jerk though. And Joffrey. And Dany. How was the show rape debatable? When a woman goes "no! Stop!" as you put your dick in her, there's no ambiguity as to whether she's consenting or not. And the book canon is irrelevant to the show, as should be plainly obvious by now. I don't see how his motivations for being an asshole were ever understandable. All of them were motivated by personal gain. And don't give me the excuse that trying to kill Bran was justified because his whole family would have been killed had Robert found out about him and Cersei, because whose fault would it have been for not being able to keep it in his pants even as the king is just a few rooms away?! If anything, it makes it worse because it shows that he has no problem risking the lives of his entire family for a quick f*** with his sister. Losing his hand may have humbled him but that doesn't make him a good person, just a humble asshole.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jun 16, 2015 5:07:35 GMT -5
I was surprised I came around on Theon. But, the dude definitely had a penance walk. And I was also surprised how quick I came around on Jamie. He was a great heel, and his motivations for being that heel made him understandable. Also, he was quite humbled by the hand loss, and changed as a character. So... yay, face turn. Also, what rape? He never raped in the books because he was committed to one woman, and the show rape was debatable. Will grant betrayal and murder. Cersei's still a jerk though. And Joffrey. And Dany. How was the show rape debatable? When a woman goes "no! Stop!" as you put your dick in her, there's no ambiguity as to whether she's consenting or not. And the book canon is irrelevant to the show, as should be plainly obvious by now. I don't see how his motivations for being an asshole were ever understandable. All of them were motivated by personal gain. And don't give me the excuse that trying to kill Bran was justified because his whole family would have been killed had Robert found out about him and Cersei, because whose fault would it have been for not being able to keep it in his pants even as the king is just a few rooms away?! If anything, it makes it worse because it shows that he has no problem risking the lives of his entire family for a quick f*** with his sister. Losing his hand may have humbled him but that doesn't make him a good person, just a humble asshole. I'm writing off the rape as something just badly done seeing as not even the writers or director can keep it straight what they were trying for. Other than that, he has become more noble. Hell, even before the hand coming off, he stopped Brienne being raped, then afterwards when he realised he made things worse, he turned around and put his life on the line to save her and get her released. Then this season, he wants to face up to his responsibilities and go rescue his daughter from danger. He is mostly a changed man.
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Post by Sparvid on Jun 16, 2015 6:14:52 GMT -5
Something that just hit me. Was the Bolton army supposed to be at least partly made up of the riding sellswords who abandoned Stannis earlier? Because if not, then what was Stannis expecting to happen, simply walking up to the castle while so very much outnumbered?
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Capt Lunatic
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Post by Capt Lunatic on Jun 16, 2015 6:21:54 GMT -5
I don't see how his motivations for being an asshole were ever understandable. To be fair...he killed the Mad King. He saved the people of King's Landing and everyone ever since has been like "Sup Kingslayer...betrayed anyone today?" That's gonna make a bad egg rotten.
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The Unconquered Sun
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Post by The Unconquered Sun on Jun 16, 2015 6:36:29 GMT -5
I don't see how his motivations for being an asshole were ever understandable. To be fair...he killed the Mad King. He saved the people of King's Landing and everyone ever since has been like "Sup Kingslayer...betrayed anyone today?" That's gonna make a bad egg rotten. Well in fairness he never told anyone (except Brie) what the mad king was about to do. Nobody knew he had saved King's Landing. All anybody knew was he had broken his oath. But yeah, i see your point.
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Post by hossfan on Jun 16, 2015 6:50:21 GMT -5
Something that just hit me. Was the Bolton army supposed to be at least partly made up of the riding sellswords who abandoned Stannis earlier? Because if not, then what was Stannis expecting to happen, simply walking up to the castle while so very much outnumbered? That's certainly a possibility, though one should never underestimate Stannis's overall incompetence as a leader. (Actually, my interpretation is that Stannis knew the jig was up, and went ahead anyway knowing he was going to die: sort of a Suicide by Bolton).
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Jun 16, 2015 6:54:06 GMT -5
Okay, so am I suddenly supposed to feel sorry for Cersei and be all mad at those meaner pants religious guys, because that's not going to happen. This is the same woman who stood by and did nothing but grin her little shit eating grin when her doofus son beheaded Ned Stark, had a dozen or more completely innocent and blameless children ripped from their mothers arms and murdered, treated her little brother like dog shit all his life, screwed her brother producing said doofus son, helped destroy her father's precious family legacy, constantly betrayed and undermined her other son's power and ruler ship over a petty stupid ass grudge/jealousy she had with his wife, and most of this was all done because some loser gypsy woman quickly told her some made up on the fly bull shit prophesy when she was a little girl. Even the people who were yelling and calling her names were all being beaten and punished by those asshole priests so many of them "got what was coming to them" for yelling and throwing stuff. I don't feel sorry for her. Not even a tiny bit. In fact, every scene where she's suffering I find myself smiling, cheering, and being generally happy. This ISN'T a good character with some redeeming quality thrown into a bad situation or anything. All we ever get with Cersei is she "loves her children." Well, one child was a useless f*** (Tommen), one child we never even knew anything about one way or the other (Mycella), and the last and her favorite was...for a good long time...the most hated and despised little prick on the entire show (Joffrey). None of this is moving me. All I see is a horrible person sort of getting what she should be getting for all her evil and wickedness. If the show writers want me to feel bad for her, they're failing miserably. That's a problem I've had with the show from the start, the writers (no idea if it's a GRRM thing or not) seem to strongly adhere to the thought that a bad person having bad things happen to them redeems them for some reason. No, it just means there's double the amount of bad people. I can only imagine this is the result of the logical fallacy that a conflict always has a good side and a bad side so if you're not the worst, you're immediately the good guy. That is rubbish. I had the same problem with Jaime's characterization (having my hand cut off makes up for all the betraying, murdering and raping I've been doing, right? Right?) as well as Theon (although to be fair, his torturing was so bad I can at least agree that even he doesn't deserve this. Also they've started having him actually do noble, if not heroic things, which helps). The difference is Theon and Jaime actually seem to regret what they did. Theon thinks he deserves to be reek for murdering 2 children and betraying his real family for the Greyjoys, and travelling with Brienne seems to have made Jaime infinitely a better person. I don't think we're supposed to sympathise with Cersei, she hasn't changed one bit.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jun 16, 2015 6:58:06 GMT -5
To be fair...he killed the Mad King. He saved the people of King's Landing and everyone ever since has been like "Sup Kingslayer...betrayed anyone today?" That's gonna make a bad egg rotten. Well in fairness he never told anyone (except Brie) what the mad king was about to do. Nobody knew he had saved King's Landing. All anybody knew was he had broken his oath. But yeah, i see your point. In all fairness, he didn't because, well, as he said, honourable Ned Stark came in, who wouldn't have cared anyway. Which is pretty consistent with him. I mean that deserter in the first episode, he didn't listen to anything he said, didn't try to talk to the guys at the wall to see if what he was going on about was a possibility. You break your oath, that's it, you're scum and need to be dealt with as such.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,096
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jun 16, 2015 7:06:03 GMT -5
That's a problem I've had with the show from the start, the writers (no idea if it's a GRRM thing or not) seem to strongly adhere to the thought that a bad person having bad things happen to them redeems them for some reason. No, it just means there's double the amount of bad people. I can only imagine this is the result of the logical fallacy that a conflict always has a good side and a bad side so if you're not the worst, you're immediately the good guy. That is rubbish. I had the same problem with Jaime's characterization (having my hand cut off makes up for all the betraying, murdering and raping I've been doing, right? Right?) as well as Theon (although to be fair, his torturing was so bad I can at least agree that even he doesn't deserve this. Also they've started having him actually do noble, if not heroic things, which helps). The difference is Theon and Jaime actually seem to regret what they did. Theon thinks he deserves to be reek for murdering 2 children and betraying his real family for the Greyjoys, and travelling with Brienne seems to have made Jaime infinitely a better person. I don't think we're supposed to sympathise with Cersei, she hasn't changed one bit. Thing with Cersei is, the world is still pretty much carrying on the same for her. Theon became Reek. Jamie lost a hand. They have to live with that forever. Cersei is a selfish character, she cares about her children, so their deaths hurt her, but cares about herself more, so they don't affect her that much, hell she's been undermining her own son all year. As horrible as her imprisonment and the walk were, as soon as she gets back to the Red Keep, she has a minion bring her a super strong zombie slave, so life is almost back to normal and she can go straight into plotting revenge mode and ignore what's happened. Cersei has possibly one of the easiest lives in the show(not that that's saying a lot) so she doesn't ever face a situation where she needs to change and think about things.
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chrom
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Post by chrom on Jun 16, 2015 7:18:09 GMT -5
All I know is I don't want the person who kills her to NOT be Tyrion. A lot of fans are rooting for him to kill her off, but I don't want it to be him at all. I don't want to give that bitch the satisfaction of being right. Anyone can kill Cersei, but I just couldn't stand it to be Tyrion. It's pretty blatant that it won't be Tyrion. Way too obvious. And the prophecy shows one of Martin's weaker points as a writer. He writes great characters that have complex goals, but then needs to explain why they are this way, so he picks "A wizard said it" or "I had a bad dream." It said Younger Brother, and guess who's younger than her by a few minutes?
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clifford
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Post by clifford on Jun 16, 2015 7:59:08 GMT -5
I thought this season might draw all the arcs closer together to have everyone closer as we head into the 'third act' so to speak, but it really scattered everyone again.
You've the Watch and the North, Theon and Sansa on the run, presumably hunted by Ramsey, Brienne and Pod's adventures, King's Landing, Dany with the Dothraki, Daario and Jorah searching for her, Tyrion holding down Meereen, The fallout from Ellaria's poìson, Arya in Braavos, Sam and Gilly headed for Oldtown.
Egads.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 9:27:45 GMT -5
I thought this season might draw all the arcs closer together to have everyone closer as we head into the 'third act' so to speak, but it really scattered everyone again. You've the Watch and the North, Theon and Sansa on the run, presumably hunted by Ramsey, Brienne and Pod's adventures, King's Landing, Dany with the Dothraki, Daario and Jorah searching for her, Tyrion holding down Meereen, The fallout from Ellaria's poìson, Arya in Braavos, Sam and Gilly headed for Oldtown. Egads. Not to mention Bran with Hodor and whatever Rickon is up to.
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chrom
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Post by chrom on Jun 16, 2015 9:43:01 GMT -5
I thought this season might draw all the arcs closer together to have everyone closer as we head into the 'third act' so to speak, but it really scattered everyone again. You've the Watch and the North, Theon and Sansa on the run, presumably hunted by Ramsey, Brienne and Pod's adventures, King's Landing, Dany with the Dothraki, Daario and Jorah searching for her, Tyrion holding down Meereen, The fallout from Ellaria's poìson, Arya in Braavos, Sam and Gilly headed for Oldtown. Egads. Not to mention Bran with Hodor and whatever Rickon is up to. Rickon? Who the heck is Rickon?
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chrom
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Post by chrom on Jun 16, 2015 9:48:39 GMT -5
When you think about it, Melisandre really was an inefficient advisor. The only useful thing she ever did for Stannis was take care of Renly. And doing that only resulted in The Lannisters' army being tripled.
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clifford
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Post by clifford on Jun 16, 2015 10:10:16 GMT -5
Also why have the Freys seem to have gotten away scot free with the Red Wedding?
One of the best background stories in Books 4 and 5 is the karma balancing systematic killing of members of House Frey.
I hope they haven't just moved on from the Freys and their stupid caps in the show.
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Jun 16, 2015 10:13:56 GMT -5
So what was Myranda's big plan by hurting Sansa? She had to know Ramsay wouldn't want her to injure his toys.
BTW, the 'Olly' tag on Tumblr is hilarious the hate spewed towards that poor kid.
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chrom
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Post by chrom on Jun 16, 2015 10:35:52 GMT -5
Also why have the Freys seem to have gotten away scot free with the Red Wedding? One of the best background stories in Books 4 and 5 is the karma balancing systematic killing of members of House Frey. I hope they haven't just moved on from the Freys and their stupid caps in the show. House Manderly taking revenge on them and preparing to strike and turn against The Boltons I was looking forward to, unfortnuately they appeared to have been written out in favor of Jaime's trip to Dorne
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