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Post by Session Moth is over on Jun 27, 2015 10:18:07 GMT -5
Cena is just like the Rock where they're both kinda bad if you look at them from a technical standpoint. Both of them completely get the storytelling aspect of matches though, which is why they're considered great wrestlers. Man I'd consider Cena alot better in ring talent than Rock. Like I said Cena is not an all time great in-ring, and I love both these guys but inside those ropes Cena is streets ahead of The Rock.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2015 16:33:12 GMT -5
Cena is just like the Rock where they're both kinda bad if you look at them from a technical standpoint. Both of them completely get the storytelling aspect of matches though, which is why they're considered great wrestlers. I think the Rock understands selling and storytelling, but Cena is atrocious in those aspects. Granted, I don't watch much WWE so I can't comment on all of Cena's matches, but I remember flipping channels a few weeks ago and turning to Raw right as Cena was facing Sami Zayn. In that match, Zayn hit Cena with a DDT on the outside of the ring. Cena acted dead. Zayn picked up Cena's deadweight body, threw it back in the ring, and before Zayn could even get back in the ring, Cena popped right up and hit him with his finish as if nothing ever happened. There's no excuse for that type of spot in wrestling unless Cena has been given Hogan's Hulk Up routine (and he hasn't). That's indy level BS, and when the top guy in the company is doing it, that's not a good sign. Based on what I've read, Cena and endless finisher kickouts seem to be his new routine, and if Kurt Angle can rightfully be called out on that, then Cena deserves the same criticism. That's not good storytelling. If anything, that just makes every spot except the finish seem meaningless.
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Urethra Franklin
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Post by Urethra Franklin on Jun 27, 2015 17:25:05 GMT -5
Top five all-time, no.
Top 10? I don't think that's a crazy reach.
His selling is still pretty poor, but he understands pacing and psychology and almost every one of his big matches is compelling.
We can still hate the way he's been booked, but he's an all-time great in the ring and on the mic.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jun 27, 2015 21:00:02 GMT -5
Here's my main qualm with Cena:
I don't think he's a bad worker, not at all. A good worker knows how to adapt to his environment, crowd, etc., and knows how to play them to get a desired reaction, and Cena does that with his split crowd reactions.
My problem with him, though, is that too much of the drama in John Cena matches doesn't revolve around "Will Cena or the other guy win?", but instead revolves around "Will WWE actually let Cena lose?"
In other words, too much of the drama of a Cena match revolves around things that are outside of kayfabe, storyline, etc., and instead revolves around fans being ultra-aware of the booking of the show they're watching.
Also, the guy can't sell for shit.
Neither of these make him a bad worker, but they're major problems in my book.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2015 22:01:36 GMT -5
Cena is just like the Rock where they're both kinda bad if you look at them from a technical standpoint. Both of them completely get the storytelling aspect of matches though, which is why they're considered great wrestlers. I think this is pretty spot-on, was gonna compare him to the Rock in my post as well. I can't call Rock an all-time great in-ring worker, but he always had fun matches the fans were into. Cena is much the same way to me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2015 22:10:02 GMT -5
God no I think he's decent at best, Top 50 sure but he'd be around the 40's Yeah I mean some are saying top 5, that's bonkers. There are lots of people throughout history that can have a good match with just about anyone. They aren't all huge stars that look like John Cena, but that's not what this thread is about. I bet you ask John Cena this question and he's like "lol no".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2015 22:20:34 GMT -5
Here's my main qualm with Cena: I don't think he's a bad worker, not at all. A good worker knows how to adapt to his environment, crowd, etc., and knows how to play them to get a desired reaction, and Cena does that with his split crowd reactions. My problem with him, though, is that too much of the drama in John Cena matches doesn't revolve around "Will Cena or the other guy win?", but instead revolves around "Will WWE actually let Cena lose?" In other words, too much of the drama of a Cena match revolves around things that are outside of kayfabe, storyline, etc., and instead revolves around fans being ultra-aware of the booking of the show they're watching. Also, the guy can't sell for shit. Neither of these make him a bad worker, but they're major problems in my book. That's really it for me. No matter how well Cena performs in a match the entire time I'm thinking "I wonder if the WWE will actually let this guy lose here" and it takes me out of the action match. I don't feel that way with anyone else's matches except Cena's and I hate it.
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BigWill
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Post by BigWill on Jun 27, 2015 22:24:05 GMT -5
He's at the same skill level that he's been for the last several years. If you've been a fan of his wrestling during that time, then your answer is yes. If not then your answer would be no. It's not like he's done anything recently that would sway the fans one way or the other.
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rippo
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Post by rippo on Jun 27, 2015 23:49:13 GMT -5
Here's my main qualm with Cena: I don't think he's a bad worker, not at all. A good worker knows how to adapt to his environment, crowd, etc., and knows how to play them to get a desired reaction, and Cena does that with his split crowd reactions. My problem with him, though, is that too much of the drama in John Cena matches doesn't revolve around "Will Cena or the other guy win?", but instead revolves around "Will WWE actually let Cena lose?" In other words, too much of the drama of a Cena match revolves around things that are outside of kayfabe, storyline, etc., and instead revolves around fans being ultra-aware of the booking of the show they're watching. Also, the guy can't sell for shit. Neither of these make him a bad worker, but they're major problems in my book. You hit the nail on the head right here. Notice how most of Cena's great matches over the years were against IWC favourites... CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Kevin Owens and to a lesser extent, Cesaro and Zayn on Raw. You know why that is? Because the internet fans get invested in these matches. They follow these guys from ROH and they want them to go over the top guy so badly. The drama of the match is "Will WWE listen to the fans and let this cool internet favourite go over?" And not "Wow this storyline is so compelling." That's my problem with Cena. Those matches were good don't get me wrong but a part of why they were so good was because everyone wanted the other guy to win so badly. i think that fact distracts people from the actual match quality.
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SAJ Forth
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Post by SAJ Forth on Jun 28, 2015 13:31:23 GMT -5
I wouldn't say all time, but he deserves more praise for his work.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Jun 28, 2015 13:35:18 GMT -5
I'm sure Cena would be great if he gave a f***, but he always acts so sloppy every match,ignoring things like selling or making submissions look like they hurt that i can't place him as a great worker.
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Post by lemonyellowson on Jun 28, 2015 14:37:18 GMT -5
Kinda... It's weird but yeah kinda.
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Post by angryfan on Jun 28, 2015 14:57:10 GMT -5
There's an old saying that I've clung to with wrestling. The greats can make me forget for just a second all the things that I "know". They can give me that suspended disbelief that maybe they'll win or lose even if I know a program is coming.
Flair had that in spades, and even if he did a bunch of jobs to get guys over, when he came out you still said, "OK, it's on now".
Cena just doesn't have that. Hogan did. Hogan, even if you knew, as we almost all did, that he'd win in the end, when 'Quake or somebody would lay him out and he'd do the "cards and letters" speech and talk about how he had to dig deep, he'd be selling the threat as something that maybe might get him this time.
Cena, for as talented as he is (and he is, don't get me wrong, please), can't do that. Either he can't do it, isn't allowed to do it (which I find patently ridiculous), or he doesn't grasp that it's vital to the company. It's not vital to his character that he does it, but if he's in a position to helmmake the company money in the future, when he's not active anymore, he damn sure has to do it.
WHen I was a kid, Hogan wasn't my guy, but all my friends loved him. When he'd do the big injury spot for a feud to get the heel some big time heat, the talk on the playground was always, "Man, that guy's huge, do you think the Hulkster is gonna be able to..."
Now? Now it's a foregone conclusion, and the promos are always lighthearted serious, where yeah he has the "I want' revenge" voice, but it's dismissive and it doesn't help pull me in. Maybe I'm just old and jaded, sure, but if Cena just was able to actually convey a threat as being a threat for the length of a feud (like he did with Rock when a single, non-title loss "ruined his life")then he'd qualify as top ten for me, or top 15 anyway. Now? Not so much.
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Jun 29, 2015 4:20:39 GMT -5
There's an old saying that I've clung to with wrestling. The greats can make me forget for just a second all the things that I "know". They can give me that suspended disbelief that maybe they'll win or lose even if I know a program is coming. Flair had that in spades, and even if he did a bunch of jobs to get guys over, when he came out you still said, "OK, it's on now". Cena just doesn't have that. Hogan did. Hogan, even if you knew, as we almost all did, that he'd win in the end, when 'Quake or somebody would lay him out and he'd do the "cards and letters" speech and talk about how he had to dig deep, he'd be selling the threat as something that maybe might get him this time. Cena, for as talented as he is (and he is, don't get me wrong, please), can't do that. Either he can't do it, isn't allowed to do it (which I find patently ridiculous), or he doesn't grasp that it's vital to the company. It's not vital to his character that he does it, but if he's in a position to helmmake the company money in the future, when he's not active anymore, he damn sure has to do it. WHen I was a kid, Hogan wasn't my guy, but all my friends loved him. When he'd do the big injury spot for a feud to get the heel some big time heat, the talk on the playground was always, "Man, that guy's huge, do you think the Hulkster is gonna be able to..." Now? Now it's a foregone conclusion, and the promos are always lighthearted serious, where yeah he has the "I want' revenge" voice, but it's dismissive and it doesn't help pull me in. Maybe I'm just old and jaded, sure, but if Cena just was able to actually convey a threat as being a threat for the length of a feud (like he did with Rock when a single, non-title loss "ruined his life")then he'd qualify as top ten for me, or top 15 anyway. Now? Not so much. It's actually interesting that you mention this. When I was little my dad had the same criticisms of Hulk Hogan that many here have of John Cena. My son feels the same way about Cena that many of us felt about Hogan in the 80's. He is always thinking that the next guy will be the one to destroy Cena. So to say that Cena doesn't do that is wrong as he does do that same as Hogan did when many of us were younger. Difference is that we aren't "young" fans anymore.
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Post by SCCB Was Told To Do Steroids on Jun 29, 2015 10:35:14 GMT -5
Despite people's best efforts to hate him, he's an amazing "ring general". And, he puts his opponents' moves over more than any other big name.
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markymark
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Post by markymark on Jun 29, 2015 10:44:07 GMT -5
Yes, he is one of the greatest workers in the history of the sport.
His selling is Top Notch, and also his ring psychology has improved drastically, dont really care about 5 moves.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 11:34:50 GMT -5
Cena is just like the Rock where they're both kinda bad if you look at them from a technical standpoint. Both of them completely get the storytelling aspect of matches though, which is why they're considered great wrestlers. Man I'd consider Cena alot better in ring talent than Rock. Like I said Cena is not an all time great in-ring, and I love both these guys but inside those ropes Cena is streets ahead of The Rock. I don't know man. Rock could SELL and moved around a lot better. Cena's got his strengths too, but overall I think they're pretty close.
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Post by Cyno on Jun 29, 2015 11:39:06 GMT -5
I don't know if I'd call him an all-time great. But he's grossly underrated as a wrestler.
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Crimson
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Post by Crimson on Jun 29, 2015 11:53:54 GMT -5
I don't know if I'd call him an all-time great. But he's grossly underrated as a wrestler. Yeah, I'd even say not being one of the "All-Time Greats" isn't a knock against him either since there's not many current guys who'd I put in the same class as your HBK's, Bret Hart, Ric Flair, and Macho Man's. I'd say John Cena is easily one of the best currently on the roster.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 12:20:03 GMT -5
At this point he's had more great matches than almost anyone in wrestling history. He's easily one of the best workers of all time.
If by in-ring worker you mean being like a technical wrestler though then even the likes of Dean Malenko and William Regal would be above him. By that criteria though there's probably a million better wrestlers than Hulk Hogan yet I consider him to be the greatest worker of all time. It just depends on how you personally look at it.
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