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Post by xxshoyuweeniexx on Aug 27, 2015 19:00:23 GMT -5
You know, I keep trying to read about GamerGate like it's a simple thing. It apparently involves women bashing, 4chan, video game journalism (who the f*** takes that seriously?), doxxing, trolling, Twitter and a whole bunch of other nonsense. I'm at the point where both "sides" look really awful.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Aug 27, 2015 19:02:05 GMT -5
You know, I keep trying to read about GamerGate like it's a simple thing. It apparently involves women bashing, 4chan, video game journalism (who the f*** takes that seriously?), doxxing, trolling, Twitter and a whole bunch of other nonsense. I'm at the point where both "sides" look really awful. It hurts that you can hardly find unbiased comments about this subject,so in the end it looks like a bunch of babies trowing insult at each other... which to be fair,good part people in this "war"is this
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Aug 27, 2015 19:12:39 GMT -5
One thing people are right when saying GG is not about ethics.
There is a big part of people in GG that think that is against ,from what i saw,they call "Cultural Marxism" that (saying again from words of people I saw) has been creeping and pushing ideological/political agenda in their medias. And how they are pushing ?By video games journalists.So yes,that part is an ideological dispute with games simply in the way
And then there is the part of people that believe that it does not matter their political instance,it is still corrupt but you should not care about what their social views are.
I don`t think it is as simple as "woman hating movement" or that they all want a clean and perfect games journalists,it is not all black or white
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Post by Cyno on Aug 27, 2015 19:13:26 GMT -5
Gaming "journalism" has been terrible for decades. But the powder keg moment is some indie dev's jilted ex-boyfriend.
Yeah, totally has nothing to do with sexism or anything.
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Post by weaselboy on Aug 27, 2015 19:14:11 GMT -5
I still think that video games are incredibly sexist on the whole and things definitely need to change. Video game criticism too is also changing, becoming less about the technical aspects of the games (is this game fun to play, does it control well, look good, sound good) and more about the ideas they represent and put forward; in a manner similar to how in film criticism you will hear plenty of talk about the plot and the performance of the actors and not as much about editing/sound quality. Therefor we live in an age where we have to ask some difficult questions about the choices game developers make.
I gave up on GTA 5 because I found the testosterone fuelled misogyny to be throughly off-putting and all the characters I was given to play as, thoroughly off-putting. The game was fun to play and handled incredibly well but let's be honest if we just watched GTA5's story mode as one would watch a film, it's safe to say we would be left unimpressed. To quote another the critic:The game's in 3D but it's characters are 2D.
I heard that a female games journalist offered a similar opinion, knocking the game down from a 10 to 9; only to be met with death threats and the usual harassment. Are we to continue to shrug our shoulders and go 'Well that's the internet for you!"? Maybe we can look into the ethics of these 'video game journalist commentators' some time soon.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Aug 27, 2015 19:17:37 GMT -5
Gaming "journalism" has been terrible for decades. But the powder keg moment is some indie dev's jilted ex-boyfriend. Yeah, totally has nothing to do with sexism or anything. That is why i say it is not so cut and dry.I don`t know and can`t answer if the start was sexist or not,i will place a big MAYBE on that there is good arguments on either side. But now,it starts with a small group right? maybe part of that group is sexist,again,i can`t say. But then you are a gamer,that yourwhole life people blame video games and bad-mouthed game.And you feel like there is more people trying to just control games for their own bullshit.You may think of checking it out.What pushes you over the edge" GAMERS ARE DEAD" "GAMERS ARE CHILDISH" all journalists starts trashing you,you might see where that it is terrible,these people have no business saying that. Then you want to fight against it,and gamergate is there for it,so many people that basically believe media is trying to trash or control gaming joing gamergate,does that make then sexist?
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Post by SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman on Aug 27, 2015 19:22:02 GMT -5
Can we just stop talking about it and stop pretending it was important? The whole thing was just two groups of monkeys flinging their feces at each-other and calling it activism. Oh and the journalists claiming that "gamers are dead" are f'n morons. A couple gamers did something stupid! Oh no! Clearly gaming is ruined forever for everyone! Give me a f'n break. The only thing this mess achieved is convince me that trying to get any kind of constructive endeavour going on Twitter is a pointless effort as all anyone is ever interested in on that site is having their own opinions repeated back at them for validation, ridiculously vilifying any deviation from their personal moral standards (because making other people look bad is much easier than actually becoming a better person) and impressing their circle-jerk. In fact, GamerGate is the perfect illustration of hashtag activism: impotent anger where nothing is accomplished whose only goal is self-promotion. I especially loved the people who insisted that you HAD to pick a side otherwise you let whichever side they didn't belong to win. Why? Both are equally stupid and neither of them is even considering doing anything helpful! Oh, who am I kidding? I know why: because if you try to be moderate and reasonable about it, then you have to admit that the other side may not be the ridiculous cartoon villain that you're trying to make them out to be. You might have to actually acknowledge and - worse! - listen to their arguments and rebut them with your own informed counter points. You'd have to *gulp!* respect the other side and most unbearable of all, you'd have to do something that might not involve you being the centre of attention! And as I alluded to earlier, both "sides" were repulsive. While the pro-GamerGate people were vile, the ones against it weren't much better. I especially wasn't impressed with people trying to make a feminist icon out of a woman who not long earlier went on a smear campaign against a feminist group that made the hideous error of actually trying to do something constructive by promoting female video game developers and falsely accused them of being transphobic, costing them one of their sponsors. Yes, she WAS a victim of harassment, I am not denying that or excusing it or saying that she didn't deserve protection from it but I wish people didn't start acting like she represents everything feminism stands for and didn't start excusing the same tactics than those GamerGate was using if it was her doing it and acting like because she was indeed a victim of other people's assholery, she was immune to criticism. The only thing I want to discuss is society needs to stop f***ing putting "_Gate" on every scandalous thing that ever happens. Or at least to stop putting in on things that are completely irrelevant to anything but some loud people want to pretend is a major scandal. One year later and people are still gullible enough to believe this is about ethics in game journalism. Because who better to educate people on ethics than some guys who think harassment and threats are perfectly reasonable tools to win an argument?
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Aug 27, 2015 19:22:40 GMT -5
I'm not convinced we need this thread, but it's here anyway. So if you're gonna discuss this, don't give us reason to lock it. I mean this question sincerely, since (perfectly understandably) GamgerGate has been the one subject with a zero tolerance policy on the boards, to the point where mentioning GG or saying a joke ending with "ethics in gaming journalism" is met with a stern "knock it off" of the posts deleted/threads locked right there. Are there any specific guidelines we should be following now that this thread's exploring it? I know the rules of the forum, but I'm just checking in because it seems GG brings with it a whole greater baggage than other taboo topics we've explored.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Aug 27, 2015 19:23:42 GMT -5
I still think that video games are incredibly sexist on the whole and things definitely need to change. Video game criticism too is also changing, becoming less about the technical aspects of the games (is this game fun to play, does it control well, look good, sound good) and more about the ideas they represent and put forward; in a manner similar to how in film criticism you will hear plenty of talk about the plot and the performance of the actors and not as much about editing/sound quality. Therefor we live in an age where we have to ask some difficult questions about the choices game developers make. I gave up on GTA 5 because I found the testosterone fuelled misogyny to be throughly off-putting and all the characters I was given to play as, thoroughly off-putting. The game was fun to play and handled incredibly well but let's be honest if we just watched GTA5's story mode as one would watch a film, it's safe to say we would be left unimpressed. To quote another the critic:The game's in 3D but it's characters are 2D. I heard that a female games journalist offered a similar opinion, knocking the game down from a 10 to 9; only to be met with death threats and the usual harassment. Are we to continue to shrug our shoulders and go 'Well that's the internet for you!"? Maybe we can look into the ethics of these 'video game journalist commentators' some time soon. Thing is,everyone is harassed,it is not a woman things,popular youtubers and journalist of all kinds receive that. Now is it okay?Absolutely not,it is a social problem,a human problem,but not only against woman,i think anyone that is sane and a decent human being could agree that death threats are bad. I think the first phrase is also pretty important,maybe it is where the conflict is born.People don`t think your view on social issues should matter when reviewing a game.Also plot is always judged that is focused on plot,it depends of the genre.I do not think that video games are sexist AS people complain,there is still flaws(Chun Li overly bouncy boobs onn SFV for example)but i believe it is very diverse and not as much as a "bikini warrior" case as before. I didn`t play GTAV since i don`t like violence for sake of violence which it looked to be like so i can`t say anything about that.
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Post by Red Impact on Aug 27, 2015 19:29:11 GMT -5
That is why i say it is not so cut and dry.I don`t know and can`t answer if the start was sexist or not,i will place a big MAYBE on that there is good arguments on either side. But now,it starts with a small group right? maybe part of that group is sexist,again,i can`t say. But then you are a gamer,that yourwhole life people blame video games and bad-mouthed game.And you feel like there is more people trying to just control games for their own bullshit.You may think of checking it out.What pushes you over the edge" GAMERS ARE DEAD" "GAMERS ARE CHILDISH" all journalists starts trashing you,you might see where that it is terrible,these people have no business saying that. Then you want to fight against it,and gamergate is there for it,so many people that basically believe media is trying to trash or control gaming joing gamergate,does that make then sexist? We can simplify it. Yes, part of that group is sexist. Yes, part of that group is childish. Yes, many of the criticisms of the industry are valid and a portion of the gamers in gamergate are fighting back because they are childish and sexist. No, their fantasy diversions aren't going anywhere. Yes, the industry is changing because technology allows us to do a hell of a lot more with our games than run right and shoot.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Aug 27, 2015 19:29:43 GMT -5
I think my main point here,is my tin foil hat,where I easily see a big smear campaign,when anything small happens,all people involved are scum,hell I never even was part of gamergate,or joined in stupid twitter movement(which i think is really stupid).even if i can agree with SOME point.
But i hate corruption so when i see people that believe in something,and the big guys try to bully then out,and it works,makes me sad.I don`t believe more than 1% of people on gamergate would ever approve of death treaths and bomb threats,that is simply media trying to protect itself with what they can.
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FinalGwen
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Post by FinalGwen on Aug 27, 2015 19:30:58 GMT -5
And now, a year on from this nonsense, sci-fi literature has the 'Sad Puppies' group saying "actually it's about ethics in Hugo Award voting" as they attempt to push out works that feature anyone other than straight white males as the protagonists. Maybe we should call it HugoGate?
Although at least they're a more obvious failure. Gamergaters have unfortunately flourished to the point where I'd hesistate to describe myself as a gamer for fear of being associated with them.
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Post by weaselboy on Aug 27, 2015 19:34:45 GMT -5
I still think that video games are incredibly sexist on the whole and things definitely need to change. Video game criticism too is also changing, becoming less about the technical aspects of the games (is this game fun to play, does it control well, look good, sound good) and more about the ideas they represent and put forward; in a manner similar to how in film criticism you will hear plenty of talk about the plot and the performance of the actors and not as much about editing/sound quality. Therefor we live in an age where we have to ask some difficult questions about the choices game developers make. I gave up on GTA 5 because I found the testosterone fuelled misogyny to be throughly off-putting and all the characters I was given to play as, thoroughly off-putting. The game was fun to play and handled incredibly well but let's be honest if we just watched GTA5's story mode as one would watch a film, it's safe to say we would be left unimpressed. To quote another the critic:The game's in 3D but it's characters are 2D. I heard that a female games journalist offered a similar opinion, knocking the game down from a 10 to 9; only to be met with death threats and the usual harassment. Are we to continue to shrug our shoulders and go 'Well that's the internet for you!"? Maybe we can look into the ethics of these 'video game journalist commentators' some time soon. Thing is,everyone is harassed,it is not a woman things,popular youtubers and journalist of all kinds receive that. Now is it okay?Absolutely not,it is a social problem,a human problem,but not only against woman,i think anyone that is sane and a decent human being could agree that death threats are bad. I think the first phrase is also pretty important,maybe it is where the conflict is born.People don`t think your view on social issues should matter when reviewing a game.Also plot is always judged that is focused on plot,it depends of the genre.I do not think that video games are sexist AS people complain,there is still flaws(Chun Li overly bouncy boobs onn SFV for example)but i believe it is very diverse and not as much as a "bikini warrior" case as before. I didn`t play GTAV since i don`t like violence for sake of violence which it looked to be like so i can`t say anything about that. Disclaimer: I don't want to sound like I'm having a go at you personally in any of this because so far you've argued in a very fair and gentlemanly manner. I think social issues are an important aspect of any criticism of media; be it music, art, literature, cinema and yes-video gaming. Sorry to use an extreme example but 'Birth of a Nation' is often applauded for it's technical brilliance and innovations made in film-making but also rightfully shot down for it's truly abhorrent racism. These day's it is viewed negatively because it's hard to look past it's social dimension and I believe that issues such as 'how is each gender portrayed' and 'is there a decent balance of ethnicities in this developer's games' should form the part of any video game criticism.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Aug 27, 2015 19:35:58 GMT -5
What kind of identity is a "Gamer" anyway?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2015 19:36:51 GMT -5
GamerGaters have engaged in dogpiling of me and several of my friends.
f*** you if you support that shit.
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Post by Stu on Aug 27, 2015 19:38:12 GMT -5
I'm not convinced we need this thread, but it's here anyway. So if you're gonna discuss this, don't give us reason to lock it. I mean this question sincerely, since (perfectly understandably) GamgerGate has been the one subject with a zero tolerance policy on the boards, to the point where mentioning GG or saying a joke ending with "ethics in gaming journalism" is met with a stern "knock it off" of the posts deleted/threads locked right there. Are there any specific guidelines we should be following now that this thread's exploring it? I know the rules of the forum, but I'm just checking in because it seems GG brings with it a whole greater baggage than other taboo topics we've explored. We're discussing it. For now, just follow the rules and youre good
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Aug 27, 2015 19:41:16 GMT -5
Thing is,everyone is harassed,it is not a woman things,popular youtubers and journalist of all kinds receive that. Now is it okay?Absolutely not,it is a social problem,a human problem,but not only against woman,i think anyone that is sane and a decent human being could agree that death threats are bad. I think the first phrase is also pretty important,maybe it is where the conflict is born.People don`t think your view on social issues should matter when reviewing a game.Also plot is always judged that is focused on plot,it depends of the genre.I do not think that video games are sexist AS people complain,there is still flaws(Chun Li overly bouncy boobs onn SFV for example)but i believe it is very diverse and not as much as a "bikini warrior" case as before. I didn`t play GTAV since i don`t like violence for sake of violence which it looked to be like so i can`t say anything about that. Disclaimer: I don't want to sound like I'm having a go at you personally in any of this because so far you've argued in a very fair and gentlemanly manner. I think social issues are an important aspect of any criticism of media; be it music, art, literature, cinema and yes-video gaming. Sorry to use an extreme example but 'Birth of a Nation' is often applauded for it's technical brilliance and innovations made in film-making but also rightfully shot down for it's truly abhorrent racism. These day's it is viewed negatively because it's hard to look past it's social dimension and I believe that issues such as 'how is each gender portrayed' and 'is there a decent balance of ethnicities in this developer's games' should form the part of any video game criticism. i also don`t want to sound like that.And iunderstand the point,so i will agree,social issues may have merit. But i think some people walk that fine line between social issue,extremism and personal opinion.I remember having a review taking points of because Bayonetta 2 was over-sexualized. Now i understand the issue,some people see that as eye gazing,and maybe it could use less fanservice,but isn`t there room for both sexy characters and all other types of characters?Is it fair to take point of because it is a type of character?I believe there is room for that and other types,diversity doe not come from shutting that down,but from making MORE games of many different types,for example Lara Croft ,the new one,which looks like a regular girl that goes to the gym. Now if a game truly looks down on woman,and tries to show it in a negative light,which i`m sure there is some example i can`t think of,then absolutely deserves to be judged about it
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Jeff Mangum PI
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Post by Jeff Mangum PI on Aug 27, 2015 19:42:12 GMT -5
Wow, I can't believe it's been an entire year since I became completely embarrassed to call myself a gamer.
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Post by "Mr Wonderdick" Dick Dastardly on Aug 27, 2015 19:44:33 GMT -5
The only thing I want to discuss is society needs to stop f***ing putting "_Gate" on every scandalous thing that ever happens. GateGate
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Post by Hot Noodle Truck on Aug 27, 2015 19:48:05 GMT -5
Possible real issues buried under unbelievable behavior from both sides. An embarrassment then and still an embarrassment now.
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