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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2015 1:40:25 GMT -5
I don't really know all that much about ECW. Only watched on VHS tape of it as that was all there was in my local video stores.
But for 15 years, Ive had to listen to ECW fans go on and on about how revolutionary their show was and how WCW and WWF stole all their ideas and talent.
Ive called ECW a glorified failed indy and had several arguments with people on several forums.
But I have to admit; ECW was good, and it did cater to its fans. It did a lot with a little. WCW and WWF did steal quite a few ideas from ECW. WCW's cruserweight division was plucked straight from ECW. WWFs whole attitude era is a watered down version of ECWs hardcore revolution.
ECW does have a legacy and its "One night stand" PPV sold better than any WWE PPV ever. How well would TNA One night stand do?
TNA is a joke. Dixie will be remembered as the female Jim Herd.
So Heyman wins and wins quite easily.
Dixie vs Jim Herd would be a better discussion
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Oct 11, 2015 1:55:24 GMT -5
Well Herd was just an executive so when he failed they just let him go, nobody could fire Heyman or Dixie. Herd's ideas were the shits but he also tried to bring Macho Man and Hogan to WCW, both Meltzer and JR confirmed this, but Turner wouldn't gave him that type of budget.
I think both Heyman and Dixie's downfall was that they tried to be involved in areas outside of their specialty, like Heyman running the business side and Dixie trying to be involved with creative. Wish Dixie would've given Heyman what he wanted 5 years ago, that tna would feature more of the young guys and that the veterans would've been phased out.
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Juice
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Post by Juice on Oct 11, 2015 7:01:54 GMT -5
Just thinking about what Paul E could have done with that money and resources is mind boggling. If he was running the business side of things, still he would've f***ed it up. He's the worst business man of all time. He didn't knew how to spend the money.
Neither can Dixie Carter
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Post by Hit Girl on Oct 11, 2015 7:11:51 GMT -5
Yes, because she had advantages Heyman didn't, and still blew it.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Oct 11, 2015 10:10:17 GMT -5
If he was running the business side of things, still he would've f***ed it up. He's the worst business man of all time. He didn't knew how to spend the money.
Neither can Dixie Carter We can debate this either way to the end of time. Heyman issue was he spent money he didn't have to try and keep moving forward and get ECW growing to TV ready and PPV ready. The thing about it was if Heyman had the backing TNA had a few years ago. Like 06 to 09 or even better had the Network support TNA had from Spike and keep in mind this is the same network both of them had, ECW would have been successful longer then it was.I mean when you compare ECW to TNA now even. ECW NEVER had an issue with selling tickets. The paying crowds that ECW had that TNA never could draw as much paying customers then ECW did because no matter where or when ECW always packed the buildings and never tapped anything in some studio like TNA did and WCW did. That was on of ECW issues they had little money but had to cover venue cost weekly because nothing was tapped months at a time they tapped TV weekly I recall. Not really live but most of it was in that week when they had it. The issue with ECW was Heyman would book Northeast venues up in NY and ext that normally as we found out today when TNA did it. Isn't cheap. As I said I can't say Heyman under a TNA payroll they used to have, I believe the state of the company would been in better thoughts then it is because one thing about Heyman is he can sell the hell out of something and get people to buy it. So what we are debating is this question, when Heyman first started to have the money issues, how much more would have had need that first bad night to break even? To really lets say stop the fall. Because clearly the one bad night just started the chain of more can't keep up and the debate just go larger. What we don't know is how much was that debate was on the first night and what would it take to turn enough at the gate and Merchandise make it even or profit. Keeping in mind ECW didn't have a huge team of behind the scene employees. It was mostly wrestlers doing the second jobs.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Oct 11, 2015 11:13:46 GMT -5
In regards to my original question should Jeff Jarret be included in this discussion?
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Juice
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I'm the one who raised you from perdition.
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Post by Juice on Oct 11, 2015 11:59:13 GMT -5
We can debate this either way to the end of time. Heyman issue was he spent money he didn't have to try and keep moving forward and get ECW growing to TV ready and PPV ready. The thing about it was if Heyman had the backing TNA had a few years ago. Like 06 to 09 or even better had the Network support TNA had from Spike and keep in mind this is the same network both of them had, ECW would have been successful longer then it was.I mean when you compare ECW to TNA now even. ECW NEVER had an issue with selling tickets. The paying crowds that ECW had that TNA never could draw as much paying customers then ECW did because no matter where or when ECW always packed the buildings and never tapped anything in some studio like TNA did and WCW did. That was on of ECW issues they had little money but had to cover venue cost weekly because nothing was tapped months at a time they tapped TV weekly I recall. Not really live but most of it was in that week when they had it. The issue with ECW was Heyman would book Northeast venues up in NY and ext that normally as we found out today when TNA did it. Isn't cheap. As I said I can't say Heyman under a TNA payroll they used to have, I believe the state of the company would been in better thoughts then it is because one thing about Heyman is he can sell the hell out of something and get people to buy it. So what we are debating is this question, when Heyman first started to have the money issues, how much more would have had need that first bad night to break even? To really lets say stop the fall. Because clearly the one bad night just started the chain of more can't keep up and the debate just go larger. What we don't know is how much was that debate was on the first night and what would it take to turn enough at the gate and Merchandise make it even or profit. Keeping in mind ECW didn't have a huge team of behind the scene employees. It was mostly wrestlers doing the second jobs. Yeah all that is true. I think really what you have to look at is the dollars, bottom line. How much more more 00's does Dixie have? Looking at what Dixie has spent money on, with the backing of both Panda and Spike. Heyman had none of that. And to have the resources as well. To have that studio to film in. I think Heyman would have done huge things. Im not saying he could have saved TNA, but he could have kept ECW going much longer than he was able to. It may be over blown how much Double J actually did to help buld the company, but it's pretty clear that once he was pushed out the company tanked and is still nose diving. So I think the evidence suggests that anyone with a true knowledge of how wrestling works and a stake in the company IE something to lose would do a better job than Dixie. So it's not so much Heyman vs Dixie as it is Dixie vs anyone competent with a real wrestling background. Heyman is white knighted as he should be. He was a bad businessman, but a bad businessman who could have done better with the seemingly unlimited money and resources TNA pulled out of their ass until Spike gave them the boot. With a little more of that, Heyman could have gone down as one of the best businessmen in the history of the business. It's not even all that fair to compare them ECW had a mere fraction of TNAs resources. Another variable is that Heyman was in charge of Smackdown when it is generally considered to be at its best. That is the best way to make this comparison.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Oct 11, 2015 13:32:03 GMT -5
In regards to my original question should Jeff Jarret be included in this discussion? Eh, the jury's still out on GFW, but let's face facts, TNA would have died a lot sooner than it his had Jarrett stayed in charge.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Oct 12, 2015 15:01:05 GMT -5
TNA didn't even pay their production people at one point. Multiple times for months. He's the worst business man of all time. He didn't knew how to spend the money. Nah, he had the spending part figured out
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Oct 12, 2015 16:06:05 GMT -5
TNA didn't even pay their production people at one point. Multiple times for months. He's the worst business man of all time. He didn't knew how to spend the money. Nah, he had the spending part figured out Lol. New Jack had a theory that Heyman has a gambling problem. Everything was weird, like they had a deal where they had action figures, they also released a music record, I'm not sure but I think their ppv's drew money since they did plenty of them. How can that much money dissapear? It's not like in tna where they lost a bunch of money on the hogan deal, in ECW I don't think there was a single guy that had that type of lucrative contract.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Oct 12, 2015 16:21:51 GMT -5
Multiple times for months. Nah, he had the spending part figured out Lol. New Jack had a theory that Heyman has a gambling problem. Everything was weird, like they had a deal where they had action figures, they also released a music record, I'm not sure but I think their ppv's drew money since they did plenty of them. How can that much money dissapear? It's not like in tna where they lost a bunch of money on the hogan deal, in ECW I don't think there was a single guy that had that type of lucrative contract. Not to mention the video games and international video distribution, in 1999/2000, every HMV etc in London had a few ECW tapes next to the WWE ones, I've still got Heatwave and Anarchy Rulz 99.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Oct 12, 2015 17:02:18 GMT -5
Lol. New Jack had a theory that Heyman has a gambling problem. Everything was weird, like they had a deal where they had action figures, they also released a music record, I'm not sure but I think their ppv's drew money since they did plenty of them. How can that much money dissapear? It's not like in tna where they lost a bunch of money on the hogan deal, in ECW I don't think there was a single guy that had that type of lucrative contract. Not to mention the video games and international video distribution, in 1999/2000, every HMV etc in London had a few ECW tapes next to the WWE ones, I've still got Heatwave and Anarchy Rulz 99. Damn! Heyman really is stupid.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2015 17:06:52 GMT -5
Multiple times for months. Nah, he had the spending part figured out Lol. New Jack had a theory that Heyman has a gambling problem. Everything was weird, like they had a deal where they had action figures, they also released a music record, I'm not sure but I think their ppv's drew money since they did plenty of them. How can that much money dissapear? It's not like in tna where they lost a bunch of money on the hogan deal, in ECW I don't think there was a single guy that had that type of lucrative contract. Even if ECW did have one guy on a huge contract, I doubt that was the issue. With TNA, Hogan's salary was probably a drop in the bucket compared to all the extra money TNA spent doing Impact live and doing Impact and PPVs away from Universal Studios.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2015 21:02:02 GMT -5
Yeah, Heyman's better. At least he put out a good product as he drove his finances into the ground.
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on Oct 13, 2015 21:23:35 GMT -5
Even Heyman's too far above Dixie to be in the discussion. You have to go to B-grade Heymans for a challenge to Dixie.
Like, Rob Black may have paid workers in cheesy porn vids, tried to feed a puppy to a snake for clicks, cut off one of his workers' thumbs, and ended his run with people wondering if he was producing underage porn...THAT'S a good challenge to "is Dixie better than them?"
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