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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2016 11:07:55 GMT -5
On the other hand... if Kevin Owens had debuted on Raw by buttf***ing every audience member's mother, one by one, he would still have got a face pop because he's Kevin Owens. I...........I don't think you understand the proper social consequences of doing that to someone's mother. But then, the world's messed up already anyway so hey maybe people do cheer that kind of thing happening.... Damn kids...
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2016 11:08:26 GMT -5
One of the main reasons why I disagree with people saying Owens needs to be the main heel. Nah, he's too cool. Rather be an anti-hero like Orton or something.
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Post by Gravedigger's Biscuits on May 31, 2016 11:11:30 GMT -5
The problem is the faces are guys like Cena and especially Reigns, who quite a significant portion of the audience can't stand.
When Owens and Rollins are against the likes of Ambrose and Styles, they can get booed quite easily.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on May 31, 2016 11:11:58 GMT -5
My mom would smash Big E.
I don't know what that has to do with the topic of this thread but the mention of mothers getting banged made me think of that.
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pegasuswarrior
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Post by pegasuswarrior on May 31, 2016 11:18:14 GMT -5
Seth Rollins, Del Rio, Eva Marie, and The Drifter say hello. Even Charlotte.
Plenty of heel teams I have hated, but booking used to make you hate them.
The same argument you have for the faces getting cheered applies here too. The good guys are utterly reprehensible as characters, so most people are cheering the destruction of those abominations as opposed to being actual "AJ fans" or "Wyatt fans", etc.
That's actually what has annoyed me the most. I actually wish they were cheering for the bad guy instead of against the crap stain of a baby face they're up against. I always feel like the talent is being passed over by those reactions because it's cheering against a person rather than being a fan of a particular guy's work.
All in all, I get what you're saying and not trying to be antagonistic. Just applying a different perspective is all. But I can separate myself from my points above and see your point too.
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Post by Citizen Snips Has Left on May 31, 2016 11:22:04 GMT -5
It's funny that a few people brought up ripping the turnbuckle pad off and Miz just did that to beat Cesaro on Smackdown. And that's why Miz is so great these days.
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Post by corndog on May 31, 2016 11:31:46 GMT -5
Cena and Reigns have won so many times they are the unstoppable ones, they are the guys who stomp on the talented wrestlers they put up against them, on paper and in the eyes of the audience, they're not overcoming the odds, they are the odds. They're bigger, stronger, smarter and more accomplished than their opponents (Unless it's Triple H, of course), they've ploughed through all put up against them and will do so again, the WWE's current PPV schedule gives people no time to forget this because they blow through major feuds in a month or two. Anyone put up against them is the face by default and the blame for that lies entirely on the WWE's shoulders. Kevin Owens would get booed if he debuted by laying out Daniel Bryan because he was a face that had the audience behind him, he didn't win every feud and wasn't pushed as being better than everyone around him, but fans are going to cheer KO flattening guys they have no sympathy for like Ceha and Reigns, that's just how it workd. People aren't cheering them because they're indie guys, they're cheering them because the person they're put up against isn't sympathetic, is only a face because the company book them to wrestle a face style with commentators acting like they're the good guy no matter what the audience say. I think this a really good point, but you missed a glaring point by mention Kevin Owens and Reigns/Cena. Owens is literally the anti-Cena/Reigns. He is fat, been in the indies for a long time, and seems like someone Vince would never push, even though he has. He is basically the last hope against these guys. He hasn't been yo-yo pushed as badly as Cesaro, someone who could very well be a top face, but the fans lose faith when they see him lose over and over again. What the WWE needs to do is have Owens win MITB, then cash in and get the title. Why? Well the fans went nuts when Rollins won the belt, but afterwards he was pretty much hated. Owens could be a great heel champion, and they can build guys like Zayn/Cesaro to chase him for the belt. Throw in a Cena/Owens title match that would split the crowd. Keep Reigns away from him for a while, unless you want him to get cheered. As far as unsympathetic faces, that certainly applies for Reigns and possibly Cena, although it's much better since he isn't champ and dominating everyone. The problem with mid-card guys is they don't allow them to build a character or any sort of momentum. They should have given Zayn a chance to build his character in the main roster before throwing him into the inevitable feud with Owens. Cesaro is another one, he just needs to win the IC title. The longer he chases it, the more fans just lose hope.
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on May 31, 2016 11:35:31 GMT -5
TBF, this is also kind of a result of the company itself going "THESE ARE JUST ACTORS ON A TV SHOW, HAHA! WE'RE JUST HAVING SOME FUN, MAGGLE!" constantly. I think if they're not going to have kayfabe anymore, they have to go full shades of gray and just book these people like sports athletes. Present these people as they are to the audience and let them make the choice. That's how real sports are. Some people love Lebron James because he's the greatest player of this generation and is trying to fulfill the potential that he has been living with since he was practically a child. Other people hate him for any number of reasons, from the perception that he's a crybaby to the thought the he doesn't' have the same competitive drive that his great predecessors had to outright resentment that he is as good as he is. They would have to get more creative with storylines, but it could work. Take Kevin Owens for example. Some won't care if he does heelish things, because he's a guy trying to provide for his family in a world that won't give you anything that you don't take yourself, while others will see him as a man who isn't good or strong enough to do things the right way and is setting a bad example for his kids.
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Post by Hit Girl on May 31, 2016 11:51:09 GMT -5
He got booed when he did that to Sami Zayn.
It didn't always work because on most of the things he was self-righteous about, he was right.
His character with AJ was so over the top, it became entertaining. If AJ was showing up with black eyes, it wouldn't have been.
And anything relating to the Undertaker's urn/ashes etc...is absurd. No one can really take that shit seriously. Remember that Summerslam when it started to light up and Paul Bearer could barely control it? It was hilarious.
It's because WWE have largely killed the heel/face dynamic. So many people just don't care anymore about alignments. They'll just cheer and boo individuals they like.
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Post by KobashiChop on May 31, 2016 11:57:30 GMT -5
Kevin Owens is a guy who constantly makes Michael Cole look like shit. Punk was a guy who said that alcohol is harmful, cigarettes cause illness, that the drug-using Jeff Hardy was a poor role model for children, and that the WWE system was rotten to the core. Of course they'd get cheered. Firstly, Owens also mercilessly beats the shit out of people while using his own family as an excuse. Secondly, Punk says all of those things in a self-righteous way that is meant to paint him as an asshole. Thirdly, they're not the only examples. Punk got cheered in the Undertaker feud despite f***ing with an (actual) dead man's (fake) ashes, but people have said repeatedly that Daniel Bryan's heel character in 2012 was inspiring Daniel Bryan chants before Mania 28 even started, despite him being an appalling winner and emotionally abusive towards AJ (if that had started by that point? I could be remembering wrongly). Fourthly, none of that is the point anyway, the point being that any of those guys would be getting cheered because of who they are anyway whatever heelish stuff they did. They would insult a sports team and get booed for five seconds and then get cheered a second later. Random side note: the fact that someone managed to construct a video proving Daniel Bryans effective use of the D.E.N.N.I.S system during that run is legitimately one of my favourite things ever.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on May 31, 2016 12:05:58 GMT -5
It's WWE's fault. If they can't write effective heroes and villains, they just aren't very good at this whole "booking" lark. But that's my entire point. I don't buy that this is the only reason. Yeah WWE sucks at this, but I think Kevin Owens or CM Punk could squat down and take a shit in the centre of the ring and still get cheered simply because of who they are. Of course they'd get cheered for that. ANYBODY who isn't 100% homegrown would get cheered for LITERALLY shitting on WWE (and by extension, Old Man Vince).
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r.
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Post by r. on May 31, 2016 12:11:34 GMT -5
Maybe it would help if the babyfaces were not such smarmy, smiling all the time, bouyscout, pandering douch nozzles.
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Post by IMPRESSIVE knightwing1047 on May 31, 2016 12:13:35 GMT -5
TBF, this is also kind of a result of the company itself going "THESE ARE JUST ACTORS ON A TV SHOW, HAHA! WE'RE JUST HAVING SOME FUN, MAGGLE!" constantly. This is the answer. When they are presented as, teehee this isn't real, just my character... I no longer think they are a bad person. Go back through all of wrestling history and look at the most hated heels. You never saw them riding around with faces, doing charity work, communicating with fans positively. They were presented as real people and they themselves believed in it! Take for example Seth Rollins. I haven't seen the whole thing yet, but after seeing the commercials for last night's WWE 24/7, I wanted nothing more than to see Rollins back in WWE and performing again. I can sympathize with the struggle to get back from a serious injury and I appreciate the hard work he put it. Kevin Owens beats people up violently, yes. But he does it to provide for his family and make the most money he can (winky face, click sound). That's kinda what I do at work, right? Work as hard as I can to be the best and provide for my family. At the end of the day, though, I know they are just nice guys doing what ideally I would like to be doing if DNA cooperated and I'm living vicariously through them. I didn't feel that way about heels from the past. (I started watching in the late '80s) Jake the Snake was a bad, bad man. He beat up Macho Man, had his damn snake bite him, terrified Elizabeth. Honky Tonk Man was a jerk who beat women and cheated to win EVERY SINGLE TIME. Same with Rick Rude, an arrogant jerk who cheated. Countless others. Even lower tier heels like Papa Shango, The Mountie, the freakin' Beverly Brothers... these guys were jerks. You never saw them do one single thing "good." Now, why did we cheer Macho Man as a big time face (early 90s)? Great wrestler, yeah, but there was more. INTENSE promos, did work with Headlock on Hunger, Special Olympics, stood up for what was right, pushed the envelope a little bit with minor cheating, but when it was justified. Hell, he even presented Tiny Tim with a new ukulele after Jerry Lawler broke it!!!! But he didn't take crap from anyone. His M.O. wasn't stand there and smile. It was kick ass!! Ugh. Sorry for the long post, but this isn't hard. Push the faces like you would react in "real life." Make the heels bastards. Owens is going the Stone Cold route, let it happen. Anti-hero, almost villain. That's ok. You need those. Let AJ and The Club cheat a lot and be real jerks. They have a potential huge heel faction on their hands here.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on May 31, 2016 12:15:38 GMT -5
One angle to consider is that even guys like Owens and Punk play the heels, people cheer them as a sign of intense support to tell the office 'This guy. f***ing push this guy. Give him the world. Do it." Whenever people complain about how they want new faces in the main event and complain when it's someone like Roman Reigns, they get told "Well then who do you want?" and get told that instead of booing Cena or Roman, they need to cheer who they want. So people do.
But you can't say that "WWE needs better writing" is an oversimplification of the issue, but then turn around and say that indie guys will never get booed ever no matter what they do.
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Post by benstudd on May 31, 2016 12:18:27 GMT -5
You cannot boo Owens. I mean you can easily boo Seth cause he's cowardly, has an annoying voice and does tons of cheap heat. But Owens is hilarious as Hell and panders to the IWC all the time(and I don't mean this in a negative way).
So the WWE since their booking and their whole structure is lacking are stuck between guys that are anti-heroes and guys that do cheap heat and can only do cartoonish villains like Rollins and the Miz. And they have over-the-top guys like Rusev and Bray Wyatt.
They have no one that can do a straight heel well. 09 Orton could do that. But again I don't blame the wrestlers for that. And I don't blame fans for not reacting "the right way".
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Post by Lazy peon on May 31, 2016 12:25:41 GMT -5
It's because many times the heels are simply more interesting and entertaining than the faces.
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Post by lesleymoon on May 31, 2016 12:44:59 GMT -5
TBF, this is also kind of a result of the company itself going "THESE ARE JUST ACTORS ON A TV SHOW, HAHA! WE'RE JUST HAVING SOME FUN, MAGGLE!" constantly. This is the answer. When they are presented as, teehee this isn't real, just my character... I no longer think they are a bad person. Go back through all of wrestling history and look at the most hated heels. You never saw them riding around with faces, doing charity work, communicating with fans positively. They were presented as real people and they themselves believed in it! I've never understood why its so hard to separate the character we see on TV from the person off screen. Do you have the same issue with acors in movies and on tv? "Well that guy loves his family, puppies, and sick kids. Can't dislike the savage monster he plays in this new movie." I'm perfectly willing to accept, for example, that Stephanie McMahon the character is an emasculating,egotistical, power hungry spoiled brat of a character. I'm also willing to accept that Stephanie McMahon Levesque is a mom who wears jewelry her kids made for her and someone who enjoys doing charity work.
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on May 31, 2016 12:56:29 GMT -5
This is the answer. When they are presented as, teehee this isn't real, just my character... I no longer think they are a bad person. Go back through all of wrestling history and look at the most hated heels. You never saw them riding around with faces, doing charity work, communicating with fans positively. They were presented as real people and they themselves believed in it! I've never understood why its so hard to separate the character we see on TV from the person off screen. Do you have the same issue with acors in movies and on tv? "Well that guy loves his family, puppies, and sick kids. Can't dislike the savage monster he plays in this new movie." I'm perfectly willing to accept, for example, that Stephanie McMahon the character is an emasculating,egotistical, power hungry spoiled brat of a character. I'm also willing to accept that Stephanie McMahon Levesque is a mom who wears jewelry her kids made for her and someone who enjoys doing charity work. I think this exchange has been had 1,000 times on this board, but there are many differences. They don't have a video package in the middle of The Dark Knight Rises showing Tom Hardy's charity work. Hugh Laurie never appears on talk shows or at conventions as Dr. House. WWE wants to have it both ways and it can't be done the way they're doing it.
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barelybeastmode
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Post by barelybeastmode on May 31, 2016 13:04:19 GMT -5
The heels are often more dynamic and entertaining than the faces. It's not just wrestling that has this problem though. I've found that movies, tv shows and even anime have the same issues. In Nolan's Batman trilogy all of the heels were far more interesting to watch than Bale's dry ass rendition of Batman. In anime such as DBZ, as adorkable and goofy as Goku is, Vegeta had him beat with sheer backstory and motivation. Same with Bleach even, Aizen was the goddamn GOAT.
I'm not entirely sure that Walter White falls into such a category because he actually started out "good" and had the best intentions for the heinous shit that he did. The drug kingpin lifestyle either changed him or simply brought out his "evil" side. If the WWE actually allowed their characters to have genuine growth like that and stopped giving the heels reasons to look sympathetic maybe the audience reactions will change.
That is one of the reasons I'm still pissed at the mishandling of the Wyatts. They could have easily been the big bad wolves the company needed/needs, their feud with Bryan ( I seem to remember a lot of you disliked it but I loved it) proved it.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2016 13:04:30 GMT -5
Firstly, Owens also mercilessly beats the shit out of people while using his own family as an excuse. Secondly, Punk says all of those things in a self-righteous way that is meant to paint him as an asshole. Thirdly, they're not the only examples. Punk got cheered in the Undertaker feud despite f***ing with an (actual) dead man's (fake) ashes, but people have said repeatedly that Daniel Bryan's heel character in 2012 was inspiring Daniel Bryan chants before Mania 28 even started, despite him being an appalling winner and emotionally abusive towards AJ (if that had started by that point? I could be remembering wrongly). Fourthly, none of that is the point anyway, the point being that any of those guys would be getting cheered because of who they are anyway whatever heelish stuff they did. They would insult a sports team and get booed for five seconds and then get cheered a second later. It's almost like they shouldn't be heels. For modern wrestling I don't know if it's even that simple. If Breaking Bad were a wrestling storyline Walt would be getting cheered in most circumstances although the intent wasn't to make him a hero. Meanwhile many people painted Skyler to be a bitch when she was pretty much in survival mode from the beginning, trying to keep Walt's bullshit from ruining the family, but she'd probably be booed. People like villains and kayfabe is dead, I think a lot of audiences are more prone to cheer things they like as opposed to engaging with the storyline that's presented to them. People talk about Roman Reigns and John Cena turning heel being a solution to a problem but it's inevitable that fans would start cheering them in that role too. People hate the phrase but I do tend to agree that in modern wrestling, as long as the fans are reacting I think is all that matters.
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