Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,109
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jun 1, 2016 5:14:44 GMT -5
I think most of it has to do with the WWE not allowing heels to actually be heels. If this were say the 80's, 90's, and early 2000's you'd see the dichotomy between the two alignments. A heel these days can't really insult the audience like Rude, Flair, Rock, Hunter, HBK, Bret, JBL, Eddie Guerrero, Jericho, Mr. Perfect, Pillman, Owen, Hogan(His initial heel run was amazing and he was great at being a chicken shit heel), etc did in their runs as heels because the current climate is so politically correct that it's asking for a lawsuit and massive media backlash. The only way it will or would change is if the media and the audience developed a thicker skin and the company allowed heels to actually showcase their talent as a villain. At this point, how many wrestlers (aside from Zahra or Jessika Havok) would be comfortable ruining their reputation by saying or doing things that the crowds (and maybe more importantly, the sponsors/advertisers) would consider to be bigoted in one way or another, though?
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Post by Rolent Tex on Jun 1, 2016 8:01:42 GMT -5
The only guys I've seen that get the heel thing and DIDN'T get cheered? Nexus Barrett and Seth Rollins after he broke the band up. Even then I still saw guys at Survivor Series with the Nexus logo shaved in their head cheering Barrett.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jun 1, 2016 10:40:05 GMT -5
I think most of it has to do with the WWE not allowing heels to actually be heels. If this were say the 80's, 90's, and early 2000's you'd see the dichotomy between the two alignments. A heel these days can't really insult the audience like Rude, Flair, Rock, Hunter, HBK, Bret, JBL, Eddie Guerrero, Jericho, Mr. Perfect, Pillman, Owen, Hogan(His initial heel run was amazing and he was great at being a chicken shit heel), etc did in their runs as heels because the current climate is so politically correct that it's asking for a lawsuit and massive media backlash. The only way it will or would change is if the media and the audience developed a thicker skin and the company allowed heels to actually showcase their talent as a villain. Right, because how on earth could you have a bad guy without them being racist, sexist, or homophobic? Now that people are just so darn PC, bad guys are gone from media and nobody has any idea how to bring them back. There's just no way to get heat other than being deeply offensive to whole swaths of human beings.
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ASYLUMHAUSEN
Fry's dog Seymour
GIFs | Shitposts | Fun
Posts: 24,372
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Post by ASYLUMHAUSEN on Jun 1, 2016 11:01:07 GMT -5
A frequent discussion on here is the cheering of heels and booing of faces. Personally, I find the booing of faces largely funny simply because WWE largely has themselves to blame for it happening. The general consensus is frequently that if WWE wants us to cheer or boo the right people, they should have better writing. Is this not a slight oversimplification of the issue? I think there is a good point there as far as babyfaces go, because people like Cena and Reigns are often booked so badly that many can't help but boo them. On the other hand... if Kevin Owens had debuted on Raw by buttf***ing every audience member's mother, one by one, he would still have got a face pop because he's Kevin Owens. I think that applies to any of the 'indie' guys like Cesaro, Punk, Sami, AJ, in some towns, they will always get cheered regardless of what they do. In fact, people often cheer good heel work. They cheer things that are massively heelish simply because the writing is good for the segment. It's not necessarily a criticism of the crowds, but I think that the entire way we react to everything is kinda... broken. Cheer good face work, cheer good heel work, cheer high spots, cheer beatdowns... I think that especially in a PG environment, WWE is just not going to be able to get consistent heel reactions for people outside of those that are passionately hated either rationally (Eva) or irrationally (the Drifter). You lost me after snidely throwing in the 'indie' qualifier like it's some kind of 'Scarlet I' that all wrestlers who dare to bust their ass honing their craft & building a fan base (regardless of preconceived 'alignment' like they're some kind of D&D character) must wear until they've been deemed worthy to shed that label. I have my problems with indie wrestling ('oh...look. Another ICP/Juggalo inspired lame ass gimmick. Awesome. Been about 5 minutes since I've seen one of those' or 'Light bulb tube death match with a chainsaw on a pole? Damnit, Pondo. Stop trying to kill yourself!" are my personal go to generalizations to be completely honest) but recognize the really talented guys and gals who have busted their ass to get to The Proverbial Top. And I don't feel the need to qualify it with "indie" wrestler. When I talk about Punk & Bryan (for example) I refer to them as, along with Shawn Michaels, as my favorite wrestlers of all time. When I talk about the Bucks & Omega I think "those guys are damn entertaining and good at what they do"....not "Damn indie spot monkey super kick spamming indie bullshit" (or whatever the hate of the week thing it is we're supposed to hold against the Jackson's this week) I fully admit (and respect) that may have not been your intent...and if I have missed the mark here I do apologize...but it irks me & I felt it needed to be said.
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riseofsetian1981
King Koopa
"I met him fifteen years ago. I was told there was nothing left."
Posts: 10,323
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Jun 1, 2016 11:08:14 GMT -5
I think most of it has to do with the WWE not allowing heels to actually be heels. If this were say the 80's, 90's, and early 2000's you'd see the dichotomy between the two alignments. A heel these days can't really insult the audience like Rude, Flair, Rock, Hunter, HBK, Bret, JBL, Eddie Guerrero, Jericho, Mr. Perfect, Pillman, Owen, Hogan(His initial heel run was amazing and he was great at being a chicken shit heel), etc did in their runs as heels because the current climate is so politically correct that it's asking for a lawsuit and massive media backlash. The only way it will or would change is if the media and the audience developed a thicker skin and the company allowed heels to actually showcase their talent as a villain. Right, because how on earth could you have a bad guy without them being racist, sexist, or homophobic? Now that people are just so darn PC, bad guys are gone from media and nobody has any idea how to bring them back. There's just no way to get heat other than being deeply offensive to whole swaths of human beings. Rude, Flair, Shawn, Hunter(In his prime when he turned heel after DX), Perfect, Pillman, Owen, Jericho, and even Hogan were great heels without being bigoted. They were able to get heat because they were so damn good at their roles and their attitude made you hate them. These days the heels are too cool to hate, their look is cool, and their attitude is one where the fan lives vicariously through them.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2016 11:20:38 GMT -5
Heels don't really do anything evil. This was the biggest problem with the Wyatts for me. The commentary team talks about how bad these guys are but all we ever see them do is wrestle standard fare matches, cut promos that are a little condescending at best and maybe do a beatdown every now and then. That's not enough to get someone booed or even draw a negative reaction most of the time.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jun 1, 2016 11:32:47 GMT -5
Right, because how on earth could you have a bad guy without them being racist, sexist, or homophobic? Now that people are just so darn PC, bad guys are gone from media and nobody has any idea how to bring them back. There's just no way to get heat other than being deeply offensive to whole swaths of human beings. Rude, Flair, Shawn, Hunter(In his prime when he turned heel after DX), Perfect, Pillman, Owen, Jericho, and even Hogan were great heels without being bigoted. They were able to get heat because they were so damn good at their roles and their attitude made you hate them. These days the heels are too cool to hate, their look is cool, and their attitude is one where the fan lives vicariously through them. But that has nothing to do with political correctness. Good heeling works fine; Miz gets heat with fundamental heel tactics. Owens may be a cool heel, but he insults the audience on the regular. There's nothing about the media climate that keeps this from happening, it's just how WWE writes them.
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Jiren
Patti Mayonnaise
Hearts Bayformers
Posts: 35,163
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Post by Jiren on Jun 1, 2016 16:27:12 GMT -5
Kurt Angle was brilliant at mocking both his opponent and the audience without resulting to vulgarity.
Look up his promo with Undertaker that was some awesome heeling right there, plus the commentary helped.
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Hiryu
Bubba Ho-Tep
Posts: 501
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Post by Hiryu on Jun 1, 2016 17:47:05 GMT -5
WWE sucks at making their heels irredeemable bastards that you want to see get theirs eventually, and they suck at making the faces the conquering hero that we want to see triumph.
The last true face that I got emotionally invested in and got behind was Daniel Bryan, and they did everything they could to squash him until the fan response was so great that they eventually got their heads out of their asses and did the right thing.
EDIT: To be fair, they USED to be good at this. I HATED Triple H as a child and wanted nothing more than to see The Rock or Stone Cold triumph.
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Post by ireekofawesomeness on Jun 1, 2016 21:47:31 GMT -5
My mom loves anal so we'd still cheer Owens around here. LMAO comment of the year!!!!!!!!!
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Post by cabbageboy on Jun 1, 2016 22:20:55 GMT -5
Guys like Rude would probably get that bad boy sort of cheers if he was around today. In fact I bet fans would get into his "fan, out of shape sweathog" routine. Even in the 80s I'd say Flair had more than his share of fans. The big issue here is that society itself has changed and ironically WWE doesn't realize their own culpability in changing the good/bad dynamic with the Attitude Era. WWE has tried the "Hogan babyface vs. Whichever heel" formula for the past decade with Cena and now are attempting it with Reigns. People don't like that sort of feud anymore and they are saying it with their reactions.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Jun 2, 2016 1:30:24 GMT -5
A frequent discussion on here is the cheering of heels and booing of faces. Personally, I find the booing of faces largely funny simply because WWE largely has themselves to blame for it happening. The general consensus is frequently that if WWE wants us to cheer or boo the right people, they should have better writing. Is this not a slight oversimplification of the issue? I think there is a good point there as far as babyfaces go, because people like Cena and Reigns are often booked so badly that many can't help but boo them. On the other hand... if Kevin Owens had debuted on Raw by buttf***ing every audience member's mother, one by one, he would still have got a face pop because he's Kevin Owens. I think that applies to any of the 'indie' guys like Cesaro, Punk, Sami, AJ, in some towns, they will always get cheered regardless of what they do. In fact, people often cheer good heel work. They cheer things that are massively heelish simply because the writing is good for the segment. It's not necessarily a criticism of the crowds, but I think that the entire way we react to everything is kinda... broken. Cheer good face work, cheer good heel work, cheer high spots, cheer beatdowns... I think that especially in a PG environment, WWE is just not going to be able to get consistent heel reactions for people outside of those that are passionately hated either rationally (Eva) or irrationally (the Drifter). You lost me after snidely throwing in the 'indie' qualifier like it's some kind of 'Scarlet I' that all wrestlers who dare to bust their ass honing their craft & building a fan base (regardless of preconceived 'alignment' like they're some kind of D&D character) must wear until they've been deemed worthy to shed that label. I have my problems with indie wrestling ('oh...look. Another ICP/Juggalo inspired lame ass gimmick. Awesome. Been about 5 minutes since I've seen one of those' or 'Light bulb tube death match with a chainsaw on a pole? Damnit, Pondo. Stop trying to kill yourself!" are my personal go to generalizations to be completely honest) but recognize the really talented guys and gals who have busted their ass to get to The Proverbial Top. And I don't feel the need to qualify it with "indie" wrestler. When I talk about Punk & Bryan (for example) I refer to them as, along with Shawn Michaels, as my favorite wrestlers of all time. When I talk about the Bucks & Omega I think "those guys are damn entertaining and good at what they do"....not "Damn indie spot monkey super kick spamming indie bullshit" (or whatever the hate of the week thing it is we're supposed to hold against the Jackson's this week) I fully admit (and respect) that may have not been your intent...and if I have missed the mark here I do apologize...but it irks me & I felt it needed to be said. The problem with those is- even if there is a problem with the "qualification" of "indie" wrestler- this IS a necessary qualification to this argument. The fact of the matter is that there IS a difference between them, because the amount of heels who would get a face pop even if they "debuted on Raw by buttf***ing every audience member's mother, one by one" and the "people who will always get cheered regardless of what they do" DOES skew towards the indy darlings dramatically and skews away from the homegrown or non-superindy workers (to the point that Sasha Banks is really the ONLY non-superindy alumni who reached the "the crowd will always cheer her regardless of what she does" level...and even SHE had an incredibly critically acclaimed run in NXT at the time leading to that moment.) The qualification IS an important one for this debate, because by and large, it's the indy darlings who tend to be the heels that fans will cheer no matter what they do.
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Emmet Russell
King Koopa
Quieter
The best wrestler on earth.
Posts: 12,526
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Post by Emmet Russell on Jun 2, 2016 1:56:35 GMT -5
There's nothing wrong with cheering the people you like, and heels are often cooler than the faces - they've been booked that way since the NWO in 1996, which I believe was the beginning of the "cool heel".
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Emmet Russell
King Koopa
Quieter
The best wrestler on earth.
Posts: 12,526
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Post by Emmet Russell on Jun 2, 2016 1:57:55 GMT -5
These days, people just love villains. It's not only wrestling. Look at how many people love Walter White and Loki. An alarming number of people love Walter White because they don't realise he's the villain in his own story. As for Loki? God only knows, everyone wants to f*** Tom Hiddlestone whether he's Loki or not. While I'm sure plenty of people want to f*** Kevin Owens, I think that's the person, not the character (although some will want to f*** the character too, there's a fetish for everything). People could still make a case for defending Walter's actions, despite them getting more dastardly as the series went on. That's good writing, and allows the viewers to make their own decisions.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2016 2:26:53 GMT -5
Rude, Flair, Shawn, Hunter(In his prime when he turned heel after DX), Perfect, Pillman, Owen, Jericho, and even Hogan were great heels without being bigoted. They were able to get heat because they were so damn good at their roles and their attitude made you hate them. These days the heels are too cool to hate, their look is cool, and their attitude is one where the fan lives vicariously through them. But that has nothing to do with political correctness. Good heeling works fine; Miz gets heat with fundamental heel tactics. Owens may be a cool heel, but he insults the audience on the regular. There's nothing about the media climate that keeps this from happening, it's just how WWE writes them. Eh, I agree with the general point, but there is some impact from worrying too much about outside opinions. See Finlay being pointlessly fired over that Miz interrupting the national anthem thing.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2016 2:52:49 GMT -5
But that has nothing to do with political correctness. Good heeling works fine; Miz gets heat with fundamental heel tactics. Owens may be a cool heel, but he insults the audience on the regular. There's nothing about the media climate that keeps this from happening, it's just how WWE writes them. Eh, I agree with the general point, but there is some impact from worrying too much about outside opinions. See Finlay being pointlessly fired over that Miz interrupting the national anthem thing. And Daniel Bryan when he got fired the first time around.
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Lt. Palumbo
Hank Scorpio
On again off again watcher of a wrestling TV show
Posts: 6,067
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Post by Lt. Palumbo on Jun 2, 2016 4:11:59 GMT -5
These days, people just love villains. It's not only wrestling. Look at how many people love Walter White and Loki. No argument on Loki, but WW is a totally different case. He didn't become full blown heel for about 4 seasons. in fact the arch of most of the series could be described as "a good man turning bad"
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Post by drjayphd (feat. Pitbull) on Jun 2, 2016 13:08:16 GMT -5
On the other hand... if Kevin Owens had debuted on Raw by buttf***ing every audience member's mother, one by one, he would still have got a face pop because he's Kevin Owens. I...........I don't think you understand the proper social consequences of doing that to someone's mother. But then, the world's messed up already anyway so hey maybe people do cheer that kind of thing happening.... Damn kids... Well, it WOULD reinforce his new character...
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,109
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jun 2, 2016 14:08:44 GMT -5
These days, people just love villains. It's not only wrestling. Look at how many people love Walter White and Loki. No argument on Loki, but WW is a totally different case. He didn't become full blown heel for about 4 seasons. in fact the arch of most of the series could be described as "a good man turning bad" I don't know. The point of the whole Grey Matter thing was to show that he wasn't exactly a good man in the first place, that spite and resentment had been boiling up in him for DECADES. ...which makes me wonder why WWE just could never even fathom setting up a years-long Slow Burn on Cena. I really don't think he would have got cheered as "Mr. Best For Business", and it would have made more sense than the way they were treating Orton during that angle.
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Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Jun 2, 2016 16:23:39 GMT -5
My mom loves anal so we'd still cheer Owens around here.
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