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Post by freeze Austin on May 31, 2016 16:01:28 GMT -5
Maybe some of the guys they cast as the dastardly, detestable heels and some of the guys they cast as the conquering hero champion of the people needs to be flipped?
Nah, that can't be it...
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2016 16:25:27 GMT -5
I just cheer for who I like. After Cena never turned heel even though the grand majority of the crowd hated him, why should we care about who we boo and cheer?
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2016 16:38:35 GMT -5
But this is also part of the same issue as well. Quite simply, for as "smart" as the fanbase trying to say that claim to be, they forgot the most important fact for heel performers: BOOS ARE A HEEL WRESTLER'S CHEERS!!!!!It's a simple part of the program. If you really love what a heel wrestler is doing, BOO THEM OUT OF THE ARENA! That's how you show you support them, and that they're doing a great job. If you're really trying to cheer them as a sign of intense support to tell the office "This guy. f***ing push this guy. Give him the world. Do it", then boo them like they're the second coming of Hitler. If you do that, then you're eventually going to see them rise up the card as one of the most hated heels in the company and be pushed to the moon, given the world, and actually being allowed to be the same character you love in the process. By cheering the heel you want, on the other hand- BEST CASE SCENARIO, the WWE listens to all the cheers this supported heel gets and turns them face by the fans' popular opinion...and then, that primarily leads to a lot of the times where an amazing heel people love turns face, and suddenly loses all the things that made people love them in the first place to become a generic lame babyface. At worst, you're NOT HELPING- on the contrary, you are openly hindering your favorite heel's rise to the top by cheering them (after all, how good a heel can this person POSSIBLY be if the crowd cheers them? The guy's entire job description is "make people boo you", and they aren't getting booed- this person must be terrible as a heel. Give the big rub to Eva Marie or The Drifter...can you hear that hatred they get? The crowd wants them dead- THAT'S a great heel.) This is weird to say, but boos are more cerebral than cheers, at least in this context. Cheers are immediate, automatic responses to seeing something you like. The automatic, immediate response to seeing something you dislike is grimacing. It's quiet. To boo is a conscious decision the way that a cheering isn't. But the bigger thing is, booing is not supposed to be an expression of anger or disgust. It's never good to show something your audience hates, even if it's on purpose. Booing is supposed to be a way to participate in a show, because it's super-fun to boo. This is harder than it looks, because it requires trust on both sides. Real booing is playing along... you can't be worried that you're being suckered or that there's real-world consequences. Bo Dallas in NXT, once he actually turned heel, is a good example of real booing. Hating him was clearly fun for the audience, and they were clearly aware that the bookers knew that was the point, too. Bo was having fun, the audience was having fun, the writers were putting on a good show... it was great all around. But the point is, booing requires a holistically good show in a way that cheering doesn't. Cheering is YEAH THAT THING I JUST SAW. Booing requires a lot more context and trust. I go to live shows whenever they're in my area because of how much fun it is to boo heels and cheer faces. It's weird how easy it is to get caught up in the atmosphere and react a certain way. I think if I was only watching WWE on television it would be a lot harder to enjoy it in general.
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Post by Yacht Persona on May 31, 2016 17:04:10 GMT -5
They clearly don't care who we boo or cheer for anyway. But even as a kid I sometimes cheered for the heels--it would depend on who it was at the time. Also, as a fanbase we've grown up to be adults and recognize the hard work that goes into this business. If we see a performer out there busting his or her ass every night, we're going to appreciate it. Kevin Owens is my current favorite wrestler, so I cheer him.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2016 17:43:15 GMT -5
Social media plays a role, take Sasha Banks, the boss character is supposed to be this stuck up bully who thinks she is better than everyone else but backstage shows and SM accounts show that she is good natured, likeable and even slightly nerdy irl.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on May 31, 2016 17:51:22 GMT -5
Social media plays a role, take Sasha Banks, the boss character is supposed to be this stuck up bully who thinks she is better than everyone else but backstage shows and SM accounts show that she is good natured, likeable and even slightly nerdy irl. Same for Big E, back when he was supposed to be Dolph's brick wall of a silent, emotionless bodyguard, social media showed him to have a weird and off-kilter sense of humor.
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Post by lionelp on May 31, 2016 19:40:59 GMT -5
It's an interesting question because the one thing I noticed at Extreme Rules, was that when ghe adults (including me) was booing the living hell out of Roman Reigns, all the kids were looking around in an utter daze and were confused as to why the adults were doing so.
Explaining to a kid that you are heckling Roman Reigns because don't agree with the guys booking and placement on the card is probably a feable exercise..
So it raises the questopn, who is the product ultimately aimed at, and if that's kids, should we be booing the top face, in their eyes?
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on May 31, 2016 19:52:47 GMT -5
TBF, this is also kind of a result of the company itself going "THESE ARE JUST ACTORS ON A TV SHOW, HAHA! WE'RE JUST HAVING SOME FUN, MAGGLE!" constantly. Bingo. Take last night as a prime example. The story of RAW was "Seth Rollins is a backstabbing coward! Tune in to the WWE Network immediately following RAW to see what a hardworking and relatable guy he is!".
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Jiren
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Post by Jiren on May 31, 2016 20:14:53 GMT -5
I'll boo Heels when the heroes are worth Cheering, The faces in WWE are so bloody dull or unlikable, Plus alot of the Heels aren't Heelish enough anymore (IMO Miz is the best heel in WWE).
One of the things the REALLY bugged me in the Cena/Wyatt feud was after the "Children's choir" Cena looked shaken to the core, Now if after that segment we saw Cena walk backstage and Renee tried to talk but Cena was all "Look.....I I really don't want to talk right now" and left the arena till the PPV and during the show the commentators kept saying stuff like "Is Cena succumbing to Wyatt's Mind games", "is Cena gonna be 100% focused this Sunday?". That would've added tension to the match.
Instead 30 mins after the "Choir" segment Cena cut an unfunny Cena promo about Goats, Ruined the previous segment.
Daniel Bryan was the best Face WWE had for the longest time, Which is why the Majority cheered him over the Heels, The same Heels who were cheered over Cena 2 months later (Don't remember his reactions during the Reigns feud)
Cena or Reigns would NEVER get something like this
(This isn't edited, This is how it was that night)
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2016 23:32:07 GMT -5
Rather than compare WWE to different genres, I'll instead compare them to the only other wrestling product I watch: Lucha Underground.
We'll take 3 heels from season 1... Cage, Mil Muertes, and Pentagon Jr.
All 3 guys got the crowd behind them by wrecking shit, and being general badasses. Rather than keep them heel, they turned all 3 tweener.
Flip side of that, you have plenty of heels who get heat the old fashioned way: cheating. Johnny Mundo is a smarmy Jackass who cheats frequently. Chavo is a chickenshit who cheats frequently. Marty the Moth is a creepy bastard who cheats frequently. The only exception is Matanza, but Matanza gets his heat by murdering crowd favorites that the crowds have gotten behind.
Give me more to hate in a heel than "his music caused a distraction rollup", for heaven's sake.
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on May 31, 2016 23:45:13 GMT -5
There's tons of factors here, not the least of which is the way WWE has conditioned its audience to be terrified that at any moment, they're going to stop caring about your personal favorite wrestler and start super-pushing whomever the office is in love with at a given time. That's the issue Roman ran into, it's a big reason why Bryan was so beloved (though obviously his own amazing work contributed the most to that), etc. However, if we want heels to get booed more, then wrestling companies need to focus on creating actual dramatic tension, something WWE may be the worst at compared to almost any other near mainstream company. As was said previously, most WWE heels feel like goobers; it's ok to book most feuds to have the babyface win, but in an era of two weekly "super shows" and regular PPV style shows, there's just no real recovery time between feuds, so the heels lose...and lose...and lose...and lose...with maybe a dirty win thrown in a couple of times for good measure. Worse, WWE babyfaces are horrible at evolving over time, with Cena as the poster boy: even the "worst year of his career" back a few years ago when Rock beat him did absolutely nothing to change his character or present new wrinkles in his approach to wrestling or interactions with others. That means there's no stakes in anything that happens. Without dramatic tension, there's no reason to believe a babyface is in true peril, that he/she may not only lose or win a match, but may win or lose much more depending on the circumstances. The problem with these, though, is that there is a point where it's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy more than anything. Because of how WWE has conditioned its audience to be terrified they'll stop caring about your personal favorite wrestler. John Cena's two "biggest" feuds last year- between Rusev and Kevin Owens- are two great examples of the problem here (but they're not even the only examples, because it's happened a LOT of times in the Cena era.) Using your Superman/Darkseid example- there were real consequences of the feud, where it started to tarnish Superman and, even if he lost, Darkseid won by tarnishing Superman....but the problem with both the Rusev/Owens examples was that they proved it wasn't just "the WWE that doesn't give consequences to the story, but that the fans' malaise has ALSO led to there being no dramatic tension in these feuds. In both cases, Rusev and Owens each beat Cena in the first match of the feud, clean as a sheet, with Rusev even making Cena pass out rather than tap out to the Accolade. On paper, both of those matches should have MADE them instant superstars and solidified "this guy is the REAL DEAL, he's not going anywhere, he's a MADE MAN now- if you have any worry about us forgetting him, DON'T!"... ...and yet, the response wasn't that they just got MADE by Cena or just became a star, but rather "It doesn't matter- Cena's just going to win the rematch, and THEN they'll be BERRIEDED, I know it!" The fans are so conditioned that their personal favorite wrestler is going to lose and be buried that even if their favorite wrestler WINS, the fans can't truly enjoy even that...and so with both Rusev and Owens's feuds, it didn't help MAKE them any more than it could have changed it.
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Zone Was Wrong
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Post by Zone Was Wrong on May 31, 2016 23:49:19 GMT -5
Eh a lot of the times its just the fact that they're a lot more interesting than the faces they are facing. Or in my case it's the fact I love the wrestling aspect over character. Guys like Owens and Rollins are just so amazing in the ring that I can't boo or hate them.
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Post by Dragonfly on Jun 1, 2016 0:30:00 GMT -5
It's not the WWE, but Jimmy Havoc in Progress. He was a full-on ruthless during his title run, going as far as pouring lighter fluid on a helpless Mark Andrews and going after Will Ospreay with an axe.
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riseofsetian1981
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Jun 1, 2016 0:59:37 GMT -5
I think most of it has to do with the WWE not allowing heels to actually be heels. If this were say the 80's, 90's, and early 2000's you'd see the dichotomy between the two alignments. A heel these days can't really insult the audience like Rude, Flair, Rock, Hunter, HBK, Bret, JBL, Eddie Guerrero, Jericho, Mr. Perfect, Pillman, Owen, Hogan(His initial heel run was amazing and he was great at being a chicken shit heel), etc did in their runs as heels because the current climate is so politically correct that it's asking for a lawsuit and massive media backlash.
The only way it will or would change is if the media and the audience developed a thicker skin and the company allowed heels to actually showcase their talent as a villain.
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Post by angryfan on Jun 1, 2016 1:05:35 GMT -5
It's an interesting question because the one thing I noticed at Extreme Rules, was that when ghe adults (including me) was booing the living hell out of Roman Reigns, all the kids were looking around in an utter daze and were confused as to why the adults were doing so. Explaining to a kid that you are heckling Roman Reigns because don't agree with the guys booking and placement on the card is probably a feable exercise.. So it raises the questopn, who is the product ultimately aimed at, and if that's kids, should we be booing the top face, in their eyes? The problem is, and I do agree with the question you ask, the company wants it both ways. You have Reigns out and out say in an interview "this is a kids show", yet you have the network that they push harder than any performer that is based, almost entirely, around the hardcore fanbase that will want to see the content they are that ISN'T the PPV's. They want to have their cake and eat it too, and that leads to the schizophrenic booking that "we have to have the cookie cutter good guys and bad guys, and and damn you for not cheering who we want but damn it, a reaction of any kind justifies us spinning the narrative any way we want".
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Jun 1, 2016 1:09:18 GMT -5
I'd rather do away with all the weak babyfaces getting booed, rather than getting rid of the heels getting cheered. If the faces are strong enough that they can get crowd support, it doesn't really matter how much people like the heels. Look at the Sami Zayn vs. Kevin Owens feud. Sami is a good enough face that he still gets all the crowd support despite the fact that Owens routinely gets face pops during all of his entrances.
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on Jun 1, 2016 1:34:41 GMT -5
This is weird to say, but boos are more cerebral than cheers, at least in this context. Cheers are immediate, automatic responses to seeing something you like. The automatic, immediate response to seeing something you dislike is grimacing. It's quiet. To boo is a conscious decision the way that a cheering isn't. But the bigger thing is, booing is not supposed to be an expression of anger or disgust. It's never good to show something your audience hates, even if it's on purpose. Booing is supposed to be a way to participate in a show, because it's super-fun to boo. This is harder than it looks, because it requires trust on both sides. Real booing is playing along... you can't be worried that you're being suckered or that there's real-world consequences. Bo Dallas in NXT, once he actually turned heel, is a good example of real booing. Hating him was clearly fun for the audience, and they were clearly aware that the bookers knew that was the point, too. Bo was having fun, the audience was having fun, the writers were putting on a good show... it was great all around. But the point is, booing requires a holistically good show in a way that cheering doesn't. Cheering is YEAH THAT THING I JUST SAW. Booing requires a lot more context and trust. But that also ties to the same point. There IS a point of playing along, simply because if you have faces and heels, good vs. evil...sometimes, the bad guy wins. Even if it's a part-time thing to build to the hero eventually slaying the villain, evil will triumph over good, and that'll be "something intended for your audience to hate"...and honestly, if you just go with the other side and go all Christian Wrestling Federation "the faces win every match, every time", the crowd would by and large despise that just as much. It's a whole part of the show- part of wrestling, or any entertainment, is knowing just when you have to break the fans' hearts in order to make them want something THAT MUCH MORE- and whether you're breaking their heart by "Ted DiBiase paid a crooked ref to have plastic surgery to screw Hulk Hogan out of the title!" or "the WWE staff didn't even put Daniel Bryan in the Royal Rumble to even give him a chance at the Wrestlemania main event!", it's still the same point. With that in mind, booing has to be seen as a part of the show- whether it's playing along, or by anger or disgust- it IS an important part of wrestling's dynamic and necessary to show you BELIEVE in this heel performer as the evil bastard theiy're being portrayed as.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2016 2:15:19 GMT -5
People are going to randomly cheer heels they like regardless.
What they need to stop is faces getting booed. It's really dumb because they HAVE. LOTS. OF. FACES. THAT. DONT. GET. BOOED.
Use those guys as your top faces. Change them up and mix it up, who cares. Or fight it like a dumb child. Watch viewers slowly go down and blame it on those DERN SMERKS THERT VERCERL MERNERITY
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Post by Ganon83 on Jun 1, 2016 2:20:23 GMT -5
Miz is one of the best heels on the roster. I miss more legitimate choruses of boos for heels. Now we get mixed reactions for top babyfaces instead. Came in here just to say this. Miz is also really good as taking a new person and getting the crowd to get behind them. You can point to Daniel Bryan or Sandow (Not much reaction until the Mizdow angle) for this but I think the better example is Alex Riley. Riley was still getting big reactions when he was barely being booked on RAW just because he turned on the Miz for a year or two afterwards.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2016 4:54:28 GMT -5
One thing that does get lost a lot in talks like this is that fans cheering heels who are entertaining and booing faces who aren't isn't anything new at all. More common these days to be sure, but that shit's been happening in wrestling from day one.
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