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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jan 11, 2018 15:29:08 GMT -5
so glad to see Jericho finally getting that 5 Star match. Even sweeter considering he's so close to 50. But...he's had plenty of better matches in WWE when he was younger. Not knocking this particular match with Omega, but if that was 5 stars then surely some of his encounters with Benoit and Michaels were also 5-Star worthy. I think it's the story that was told, the brutality of the match, the type of match, and Omega's presence elevating it. Jericho and Shawn's feud was phenomenal from a storytelling perspective, but it was still wrestled in the WWE's system of wrestling. They could do great things, but they were still on a leash for how far they could take it. His matches with Benoit were great, but there was little meat on the bones as far as storyline was concerned. This was a perfect combination of a match that began as mere sniping, then the physicality got taken up a notch with Jericho ambushing Omega, and then went into overdrive as a blood feud with Omega attacking Jericho at the press conference and then the match was just two guys beating the everloving shit out of each other, hitting their big spots and showing the Japanese fighting spirit. The outcome lived up to the hype, I think they earned the 5 Stars. The one thing that always feels missing from "he rates New Japan higher than WWE" is that what he likes out of wrestling, New Japan is much more willing to give him than WWE will. The build up felt fresh and different for the kinds of work Jericho had done in the past, and so much of what Jericho was able to do in the match and in his role as a heel is so far removed from the kinds of things that WWE would have allowed him to do. People around here call WWE stale, formulaic, and stuffy, but imagine how much more of all those things it must feel for a dude whose job requires him to sit through every hour of WWE programming every week for years. Jericho did great work with Michaels and Benoit but the stories are very WWE and they were also just excellently worked WWE matches in their execution. This was not only different for Jericho, it felt raw and different from even New Japan's usual offerings while still feeling in structure like a New Japan match. You can't really compare this to the Shawn or Benoit feuds beyond them being different Chris Jericho matches, because they're in totally different worlds and did very different things.
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Post by corndog on Jan 11, 2018 15:43:20 GMT -5
I rewatched Naito/Okada the other day and I enjoyed the match a lot more. I was caught in the moment and worn down from a long day of wrestling. It wasn't a mindblowing, fast paced match, like the Okada/Omega matches, but the story telling was brilliant.
That being said, I think 4.5 stars is perfect for the match. I didn't think the junior match was anywhere near 4.75 though, too many mistakes. I also didn't feel like Jericho/Omega was a 5 star match, even though it was very good. My favorite match was Suzuki/Goto, to me that match was perfect.
Also, most of Okada's ratings have been fair, the guy is amazing. It's Omega that gets the ridiculous, break the scale ratings, he's the target of Meltzer's lust. That being said, good for Jericho. What this match really proved, is even in his advanced age, WWE has really limited his ability.
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Post by The Spelunker! on Jan 11, 2018 15:45:38 GMT -5
I would say Jericho vs Omega earned 5 stars just on the big fight feel and the transformative nature of the match. I think most people went into this expecting Omega to pick up the victory in a well wrestled match. It ended up being a crazy, wild brawl with no real dead spots, a crowd that was super into it, and was compelling to the point where I not only doubted who would win but bought on a number of the false finishes. I didn't pick up my phone at all during that match, and that's about as good a telling sign as I can get.
Stuff like them knocking the commentary out really made it feel like anything could happen, and I'd like to commend them for that.
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Post by KofiMania on Jan 11, 2018 16:56:55 GMT -5
Meltzer's match ratings: 1. New Japan Rumble - *1/2 2. Matt & Nick Jackson vs. Sho & Yoh - **** 3. Zack Sabre Jr. & Takashi Iizuka & Taichi vs. Michael Elgin & Ray Rowe & Hanson - **½ 4. Tomohiro Ishii & Toru Yano & Baretta vs. Sabre Jr. & Iizuka & Taichi - 3/4* 5. Ishii & Yano & Baretta vs. Togi Makabe & Juice Robinson & Ryusuke Taguchi - *1/2 6. Six Man Title Gauntlet - **3/4 7. Kota Ibushi vs. Cody - ****1/4 8. IWGP Tag Title Match - **** 9. Hirooki Goto vs. Minoru Suzuki - ****½ 10. IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Title Four Way - ****3/4 11. Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Jay White - ***3/4 12. Kenny Omega vs. Chris Jericho - ***** 13. Kazuchika Okada vs. Tetsuya Naito - ****½ Wow, being in the Tokyo Dome really does raise Meltzer's ratings a good 1/2 to 1 star.
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Post by ben:friendship frog on Jan 11, 2018 18:33:04 GMT -5
Meltzer and his star rating is a joke. I get it's his opinion but f***ing hell haha. The fact his opinion has somehow become an accolade in wrestling is ridiculous in itself.
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the2ndevil
Grimlock
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Post by the2ndevil on Jan 11, 2018 19:34:01 GMT -5
Meltzer's match ratings: 1. New Japan Rumble - *1/2 2. Matt & Nick Jackson vs. Sho & Yoh - **** 3. Zack Sabre Jr. & Takashi Iizuka & Taichi vs. Michael Elgin & Ray Rowe & Hanson - **½ 4. Tomohiro Ishii & Toru Yano & Baretta vs. Sabre Jr. & Iizuka & Taichi - 3/4* 5. Ishii & Yano & Baretta vs. Togi Makabe & Juice Robinson & Ryusuke Taguchi - *1/2 6. Six Man Title Gauntlet - **3/4 7. Kota Ibushi vs. Cody - ****1/4 8. IWGP Tag Title Match - **** 9. Hirooki Goto vs. Minoru Suzuki - ****½ 10. IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Title Four Way - ****3/4 11. Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Jay White - ***3/4 12. Kenny Omega vs. Chris Jericho - ***** 13. Kazuchika Okada vs. Tetsuya Naito - ****½ Wow, being in the Tokyo Dome really does raise Meltzer's ratings a good 1/2 to 1 star. It stopped being a joke, and started being cannon
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 11, 2018 20:48:11 GMT -5
I might have taken a quarter star away from the heavyweight tag match and added it to Goto/Suzuki, and beyond that most of my other changes would probably be 1/4* nitpicks here and there. Might've taken a bit from the White/Tanahashi match, but upon rewatching it it did kind of stick out how much that match suffered from card placement, having to follow the Jr. 4-way was really a brutal task for a match with a young guy and an injured champ.
It really was a solid top-to-bottom card; I would say that the marquee matches at the past few WKs were a bit better, but taken in its totality this year's really had some of the better tag title matches in recent memory to go along with one of my favorite recent NEVER title matches and the insanity of the Jr. title match.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jan 11, 2018 21:11:58 GMT -5
I rewatched Naito/Okada the other day and I enjoyed the match a lot more. I was caught in the moment and worn down from a long day of wrestling. It wasn't a mindblowing, fast paced match, like the Okada/Omega matches, but the story telling was brilliant. That being said, I think 4.5 stars is perfect for the match. I didn't think the junior match was anywhere near 4.75 though, too many mistakes. I also didn't feel like Jericho/Omega was a 5 star match, even though it was very good. My favorite match was Suzuki/Goto, to me that match was perfect. Also, most of Okada's ratings have been fair, the guy is amazing. It's Omega that gets the ridiculous, break the scale ratings, he's the target of Meltzer's lust. That being said, good for Jericho. What this match really proved, is even in his advanced age, WWE has really limited his ability. I put it this way, the match was perfectly booked to do what Jericho does best and cover up his shortcomings at his age now It would be a mistake to put him in a 30 min straight up wrestling match, but a match like that where you can cut corners is good for him
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 27,955
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Post by chazraps on Jan 11, 2018 22:58:42 GMT -5
Maybe being in the Tokyo Dome just makes matches better?
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Post by AwamoriRock on Jan 12, 2018 0:32:07 GMT -5
Maybe being in the Tokyo Dome just makes matches better? It’s a great atmosphere and typically wrestlers give it their all there, but at this point I don’t think it’s the Dome itself that boosts his ratings.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 12, 2018 6:37:39 GMT -5
Maybe being in the Tokyo Dome just makes matches better? Right; I think it's primarily your first point that does it. Atmosphere counts for something in pro wrestling; same as in theater, film, or any other storytelling medium, the setting adds a lot to the proceedings, or could potentially detract from it (e.g. an episode of Raw in a town where the fans sit on their hands and/or just "WHAT?!" everything). It can motivate the talent to do more than usual, it can include something that adds gravitas to the moment, all that good stuff. It was always a big reason why the Joe vs. Kobashi ROH match felt like a five star affair, it was an intimate crowd that couldn't have been more into what the match they were watching was doing, and it took the whole thing up another level. It may not be the specific setting of the Tokyo Dome itself that makes his ratings higher, but there are features that come with a large-scale setting and "destination booking" like that that can take a strong match and make it special, if the talent is up to the challenge.
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Post by Tea & Crumpets on Jan 12, 2018 6:44:53 GMT -5
I'd knock the tag titles, Tana/White and the Jr match down a half star each, and bump Suzuki/Goto up to five, personally. I loved that match so much, some fantastic storytelling. Agree with Omega/Jericho, likewise fantastic story & action...need to rewatch Okada/Naito cause I wouldn't have it that high but I was also very bummed by the ending.
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Post by Muskrat on Jan 12, 2018 10:46:51 GMT -5
Maybe being in the Tokyo Dome just makes matches better? It does, in the same sense that a 3 star match in the Boston Garden would suddenly feel like a 4 star match at Gillette Stadium in front of 75,000 fans going crazy. Atmosphere adds ALOT to a match. Great atmosphere can make a good match great, and bad atmosphere can make a great match seem average or even boring.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jan 12, 2018 12:03:32 GMT -5
Know what else the Tokyo Dome usually has? The longest-term build and storytelling of any show New Japan is going to run in an entire year, and the story behind a match has always been a factor in Dave's ratings. The only joke here is how much people want to throw themselves out into the streets to complain about someone not being "objective" where "objective" means "have opinions I like".
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Jan 12, 2018 12:47:44 GMT -5
I think Jericho-Omega was five stars in my book (not that one exists) largely because of the timing. Every spot felt to be at the right place at the right time. Everything was given the time to breath. It's as if they knew how a fan would react to the match and timed it accordingly. And the finish was just perfect. It looked quite difficult to execute but they just nailed it perfectly.
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Post by corndog on Jan 12, 2018 13:19:40 GMT -5
I'd knock the tag titles, Tana/White and the Jr match down a half star each, and bump Suzuki/Goto up to five, personally. I loved that match so much, some fantastic storytelling. Agree with Omega/Jericho, likewise fantastic story & action...need to rewatch Okada/Naito cause I wouldn't have it that high but I was also very bummed by the ending. Goto vs Suzuki was my favorite match as well. If anything deserved five stars, it was that match. As far as Naito/Okada, after rewatching it, I can't argue with 4.5 stars, it was a great story. But when I originally watched it, I was pretty disappointed.
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pegasuswarrior
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Post by pegasuswarrior on Jan 23, 2018 19:31:46 GMT -5
Jericho vs Omega was on point. Terrific match that was far better than it seemed like it should’ve been going into it. They delivered.
(Not knocking either guy by saying that. Just felt mismatched and Jericho isn’t 15-20 years ago Jericho. Really nice job. Wrestled very smart match.)
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