Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2018 11:58:47 GMT -5
Kayfabe the in-ring shows, and certain outside appearances.
Beyond that, it's just insulting our intelligence. The reverse is also true for "shooting" during the shows, no one believes that's real.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on May 14, 2018 12:19:05 GMT -5
During the show? absolutely or at WWE presented things like their website or magazine sure. elsewhere? not really. Everyone knows it's a show. as I said in the other Kayfabe thread. You don't see John Snow turning to the camera and going... those white walkers are just a bunch of people in CG makeup so I'm not in any real danger. Nor do you see Emilia Clarke on an interview talking about her dragons as if it was real.
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segaz
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,381
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Post by segaz on May 14, 2018 13:48:33 GMT -5
During the show? absolutely or at WWE presented things like their website or magazine sure. elsewhere? not really. Everyone knows it's a show. as I said in the other Kayfabe thread. You don't see John Snow turning to the camera and going... those white walkers are just a bunch of people in CG makeup so I'm not in any real danger. Nor do you see Emilia Clarke on an interview talking about her dragons as if it was real. What do you think of times in the past where wrestlers have kept kayfabe up outside the show?
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Post by A Platypus Rave on May 14, 2018 13:52:07 GMT -5
During the show? absolutely or at WWE presented things like their website or magazine sure. elsewhere? not really. Everyone knows it's a show. as I said in the other Kayfabe thread. What do you think of times in the past where wrestlers have kept kayfabe up outside the show? different time for one. Where every bit of information couldn't be found within seconds. Even then wrestling was always known to be fixed by everyone but kids. (Even then I always knew it was a show and not real life) in 1920 a promoter went to the papers and told them that it was fixed, it was news across the country.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on May 14, 2018 13:54:05 GMT -5
also you don't think how dumb it looks when someone like the Undertaker who is a zombie with magic powers tries to act like it's always the truth!
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Push R Truth
Patti Mayonnaise
Unique and Special Snowflake, and a pants-less heathen.
Perpetually Constipated
Posts: 39,293
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Post by Push R Truth on May 14, 2018 14:04:59 GMT -5
If they are in character... my mind sees them as their character.
If they are the actor, then i see them as the actor.
I work around politicians all the time. it feels very similar to that.
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Post by Cyno on May 14, 2018 14:18:28 GMT -5
A big part of enjoying a professional wrestling product is the willing suspension of disbelief. Things that distract from it during the presentation of said product (like worked shoots) take away from the product. It'd be like watching the new Avengers and all of a sudden, Captain America becomes Chris Evans and rants about how much of a jerkoff Robert Downey Jr. is.
Kayfabe should exist entirely within the confines of the product and kept entirely by the promotion. But kayfabe has no real place outside of the product.
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Post by Hit Girl on May 14, 2018 15:28:29 GMT -5
On WWE programming, yes.
Wrestling is meaningless without kayfabe.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2018 15:58:09 GMT -5
Cole: "I actually wasn't talking to No way Jose backstage. Vince just wanted me to say I did. To be honest I have no idea whether he loves to have fun or not."
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Post by Viking Hall on May 14, 2018 16:09:45 GMT -5
Yes, we should, because what's the point without it?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2018 16:11:30 GMT -5
I feel like a lot of people REALLY fail to understand what people mean by saying kayfabe should die. No one's calling for them to openly acknowledge shit as being fake during the show itself (which, you know, they do anyway) but half the comments in this thread seem to be acting like that's what would happen if they drop it.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
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Post by Reflecto on May 14, 2018 16:45:19 GMT -5
There's some more aspects of kayfabe that should be said in addition to "just the onscreen."
Kayfabe would also account for some things that the wrestler, themselves should have expected from them as well, not just in the ring.
It requires things like, not just seeing what we see onscreen as a real TV show, but things like sacrifices a good wrestler could be expected to make- both small (for instance: Even if two performers are very good friends, it's not that big a sacrifice to say "You two are in a blood feud right now, could you at least try not to travel together until the feud ends?") up to larger (for instance: With the people in WWE who hate the rise of airport stalkers, it's not unreasonable to tell people like, say, Seth Rollins "you're one of the top babyfaces in the company, it's important to project that you like the fans- so unfortunately, we NEED you to take any photo requests or autographs you're asked for and take these airport stalkers in stride. If you don't like it...well, we're willing to turn you heel again so you can tell them no and it adds to your aura as a villain.")
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on May 14, 2018 17:19:44 GMT -5
Kayfabe is the cornerstone of wrestling. Without it, what’s the point?? Even UFC has its own kayfabe. If the people on screen don’t believe they’re actually experiencing this, why should I care??
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on May 14, 2018 17:23:42 GMT -5
Kayfabe is the cornerstone of wrestling. Without it, what’s the point?? Even UFC has its own kayfabe. If the people on screen don’t believe they’re actually experiencing this, why should I care?? No one's saying that the product shouldn't be internally consistent in presentation. But the nonsense like "These two real life friends are in a blood fued, so they shouldn't ride/be seen together" stuff needs to go away.
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 41,949
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on May 14, 2018 17:28:36 GMT -5
Kayfabe is the cornerstone of wrestling. Without it, what’s the point?? Even UFC has its own kayfabe. If the people on screen don’t believe they’re actually experiencing this, why should I care?? No one's saying that the product shouldn't be internally consistent in presentation. But the nonsense like "These two real life friends are in a blood fued, so they shouldn't ride/be seen together" stuff needs to go away. Has that even been an issue for, the last 20 years or so? WWE shows the guys hugging and crying together backstage on Network specials. Guys are posting pics together all the time on social media.
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MolotovMocktail
Grimlock
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Post by MolotovMocktail on May 16, 2018 21:04:04 GMT -5
Kayfabe is the cornerstone of wrestling. Without it, what’s the point?? Even UFC has its own kayfabe. If the people on screen don’t believe they’re actually experiencing this, why should I care?? No one's saying that the product shouldn't be internally consistent in presentation. But the nonsense like "These two real life friends are in a blood fued, so they shouldn't ride/be seen together" stuff needs to go away. I dunno, I'm in agreement with Cornette, that it kills interest in the product. He wrote a great column about it here: linkSome of the best pieces of this are below if you don't want to read the whole thing:
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on May 16, 2018 21:09:56 GMT -5
No one's saying that the product shouldn't be internally consistent in presentation. But the nonsense like "These two real life friends are in a blood fued, so they shouldn't ride/be seen together" stuff needs to go away. I dunno, I'm in agreement with Cornette, that it kills interest in the product. He wrote a great column about it here: linkSome of the best pieces of this are below if you don't want to read the whole thing: Except....he's demonstrably wrong. He wrote about the "closer to extinction than ever before" wrestling business in 2009. Here it is, 9 years later, and....not only is the business still alive, it's actually doing pretty well. The British Scene, Japan, and the indies are in a renaissance, and f***, I can't stand them as workers, but the guys leading that charge are all guys who, while in the ring are rivals, are explicitly best buddies outside of it, to the point of having their own youtube show that's a MEGA success. Like...he's wrong.
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cjh
Hank Scorpio
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Post by cjh on May 16, 2018 21:46:45 GMT -5
I dunno, I'm in agreement with Cornette, that it kills interest in the product. He wrote a great column about it here: linkSome of the best pieces of this are below if you don't want to read the whole thing: Except....he's demonstrably wrong. He wrote about the "closer to extinction than ever before" wrestling business in 2009. Here it is, 9 years later, and....not only is the business still alive, it's actually doing pretty well. The British Scene, Japan, and the indies are in a renaissance, and f***, I can't stand them as workers, but the guys leading that charge are all guys who, while in the ring are rivals, are explicitly best buddies outside of it, to the point of having their own youtube show that's a MEGA success. Like...he's wrong. He is correct, though, about how there are way fewer fans than when kayfabe was a big deal. WWE gets less than 1% of the United States population to watch Raw every week. Some of the territories would be watched by 50% or more of their potential audience.
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Post by sportatorium on May 16, 2018 21:50:03 GMT -5
Absolutely yes we do. Just on Smackdown last night.
Carmella’s look of absolute fear & resignation the minute Asuka’s music hit. Would we be better off if Carmella stood in the ring & talked about what a great “performer” Asuka is and how she plans to sell for her and put her over?
Samoa Joe’s promo on Big Cass was a straight killer talking to his opponent- not “we’ll connect in catering next week to put together a great match for you viewers at home”.
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Urethra Franklin
King Koopa
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Post by Urethra Franklin on May 16, 2018 21:59:02 GMT -5
We absolutely do.
The shoot-style shit that became a mainstay in latter-day WCW is so cringeworthy in retrospect.
When you attempt to do worked shoots, you’re effectively saying, “Everything else is fake, but this is real” and that’s just so insulting to everybody’s intelligence.
Look at that ridiculous promo that Roman Reigns cut after WM where he insinuated that Vince and Lesnar changed the finish of their match on him. Well, if you’re telling me that everything is fake and predetermined, why would I possibly feel sorry for you because you didn’t win a fake title? It’s such a stupid and insulting premise that does nobody any favours.
Look, we’re all wrestling fans. We’re in on the con. We’re suspending disbelief. Let’s keep it that way.
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