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Post by The 1Watcher Experience on Sept 13, 2019 23:23:02 GMT -5
Since people are so eager to chime in to judge Cornette I might as well give a few thoughts. I’ve said before that Cornette says outrageous stuff for reaction. He’s got a great delivery and he’s funny. He’s passionate about wrestling when it was really special. He’s managed to turn his persona into a great way for him to make a living. You never knock the hustle. He also happens to be the greatest living manager we have since we lost Bobby Heenan. His lines are usually the longest at conventions. He’s much more successful than some people will ever give him credit for. All of that said, I personally view Cornette’s rants the same way that I view a comedian’s stand up routine. Some jokes hit, some miss. It’s still entertaining. I’ve always seen comedy the same way that many people see those Comedy Central Roasts. That anything goes. It’s very hard to offend me. I’ve heard terrible jokes that I don’t agree with but I understood the humor in them. Comedians can find humor in just about anything. I’m ok with it. If I wasn’t I wouldn’t watch or pay them any attention. Cornette rants are obviously delivered in a very mocking comedic tone. He’s going for laughs. Some people get fired up and think it’s all hate. I’m sure some people will want to point out that Jim Cornette is not a comedian and that they know it’s a comedian’s job to be funny. You’re not really supposed to know Cornette is doing a routine so you’re free to believe what you want. You weren’t supposed to know wrestling was a work either. Cornette is old school. He’s been irritating crowds for decades. If he got to you then he’s still doing what he does best. Some comedians still come under a lot of scrutiny just for doing their job. Dave Chappelle is getting slammed by critics for his last special. Most fans are saying it was hilarious. Myself included. I don’t feel Chappelle is truly hateful at all. You can follow whoever or whatever you find entertaining and not agree with all of their ideology. This board is full of people that rant and rave every time there’s a WWE show in Saudi Arabia yet they still follow the product. #PotKettleBlack I’m not a member of the cult. I don’t do the toxic Twitter gimmick. The fan base can definitely get a bit cringe but so can the WWE and AEW fan base which we’re seeing more and more of recently and will probably see even more of once AEW’s show starts airing. Most of these fans are just self righteous keyboard warriors with nothing better to do. You don’t hear about them egging Joey Janela’s house or sucker punching Joey Ryan at shows. Cornette isn’t inciting anything. Most of these toxic fans are pretty harmless if you ignore them. Cornette has a hateful tone at times but much like Dave Chappelle I don’t think he’s genuinely consumed with hate either. I don’t think he loses any sleep over anyone that he says he’s annoyed with. To him it’s a job. Talk good about him or talk bad about him. Whatever you do just talk about him. It’s clearly still working. Yea, let me break this down and digest it a bit 1. Chappelle and Cornette are nothing alike. One is a full time comedian who job mixes truth and some real life shit into his comedy. Dave has stood for things and been contrite in what he believes in. Being a comedian is different than a gimmick in which you "tell it like it is". As i've said before, Cornette real life persona is too close to his "character" that others like to harp on. Chapelle will tell jokes about real life shit and as a person in the audience you are meant to enjoy the ride. With Cornette, I don't see always see comedy. Hey, let me talk shit about the Bucks because it is funny and play to my base but The Bucks aren't in on the joke so my more aggressive fans will take my words to heart and say shit to them. Meanwhile, Bucks or whoever else for this example sees Jim and he acts like everything is all good but you're making money off talking shit to me. It is not even a wink wink nudge situation where they can have fun with it, it is Jim doing what Jim wants and saying whatever he wants with no real consequence because people eat it up or defend it 2. Cornette being relevant is irrelevant to this convo. He can have the longest lines and have the most fans but that doesn't change the fact he has some real ignorant shit in his life, which includes recently as of this year. Hulk Hogan is probably the greatest living wrestler of all time but that doesn't mean we have to respect him because he is still alive. He (Hogan) can pop a crowd like no other still but you're always going to have the ignorant shit he said on your mind. With Cornette it is the same, if saying some ignorant and hateful things is a part of the gimmick, I don't want none of that especially when it is coming at other people expense 3. Bringing up "self righteous keyboard warriors" is very unnecessary. Janela, G-Raver, etc are all assholes but that doesn't make Jim any less of one. That part I bolded is important. Cornette has a hateful tone at times. If you can admit that, then why is it hard to pull back and see the crazy shit he says isn't always a "work". Shitting on Russo is his full on character, do I think he will murder him? No I do not. Hyperbole like that ranges into the realm of comedy but calling someone a butterface because they don't agree with your opinion or freely using transvestie to describe someone is some alarming shit. That's not a gimmick imo. 4. In my personal opinion I think Jim is a very hateful person and while it may not consume him, I don't think his character and real life is as separate as people want to believe. As said many times in this thread, Jim is an asshole but he is well within his right to sue this stupid asshole with that shirt. I don't care for Jim but that doesn't mean i'm blind to his rights. For Jim, I think he sees what he wants and that middle ground I talked about way earlier isn't there. Great manager, an encyclopedia of knowledge, at time a funny guy but he's an asshole. 1. Chappelle and Cornette are entertainers. Cornette addresses a lot of real life stuff beyond wrestling on his podcasts. I don’t mind discussing this with you but do you listen to his podcasts? It would be helpful if you knew more about the subject matter if we’re going to continue this conversation. You say his real life persona is too close to his character. Have you met him? How much time have you spent talking to him? I’ve met him several times at conventions and we’ve talked quite a bit. He’s one of the nicest people I’ve ever met in the wrestling business. I guess that gives me a more unique insight of him compared to fans that seem to be somewhat unfamiliar with him. You use the example of the Young Bucks not being in on Cornette’s jokes. Why would they have to be? The LGBTQIA community isn’t in on Chappelle’s jokes either. Cornette and Chappelle are both still successful in their respective fields. 2. Cornette being called irrelevant is a common reach for his haters. It’s been proven time and time again that he’s far from it. Some haters are giving up on that attempt at an argument because it’s a bad look and an ignorant one at that. Hulk Hogan wasn’t doing a bit for an audience. He was privately recorded saying some very racist things after having sex with the wife of a friend. If racism is your go to conversation right after sex I’d say that’s a whole lot more problematic than Cornette trying to upset people in front of a crowd. Cornette is working. Hogan clearly wasn’t. 3. I’m not sure what you interpreted from my post about keyboard warriors but I was referring to a lot of seemingly angry wrestling fans being relatively harmless. You can ignore them or block them. Cornette isn’t sending thirty dudes to crap on Russo’s doorstep. It’s not like he’s organized or anything. You mentioned the transvestite comment. That was clearly Cornette making a mockery of all the performers in the AEW battle royal. An older man using an out of date term isn’t unusual. Once again, he was doing a bit. It was a gimmick. Saying or implying Cornette is homophobic again tells me you haven’t listened to his podcasts. One of the real life things he discusses and defends quite a lot is gay marriage rights. He’s far from “alarming” in that respect. 4. You’re just going into the same thing about his character and real life again so just see the first part I posted again since I already responded to that. Cornette has opinions that he presents in what I see as a comedy routine. If you’re offended you don’t have to listen to him. If you enjoy him you can. Again, much like a Dave Chappelle. It’s nice to see so much appreciation for Dave Chappelle in this thread. He is one of the best. Then again, so is Jim Cornette. #Entertainers
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Dub H
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Captain Pixel: the Game Master
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Posts: 47,850
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Post by Dub H on Sept 13, 2019 23:27:53 GMT -5
Ok no.
You cant say ITS A JOKE. When there is no proof of otherwise and the reception isnt there and it is harmful to other people.
Even if you can prove it is a joke do you know what is called when a joke is done at the expense of others especially in offensive fashion?Bullying and Harassment and that is not an opinion but a fact of life.
They have to be in the " joke" BECAUSE THEY ARE INDIVIDUALS BEING TARGETED.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 13, 2019 23:36:16 GMT -5
Someone I'm acquainted with knows that dude way better than just having met him at cons and talked to him a few times, but I wouldn't say that gives me any insight into Jim himself and where the line is.
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Post by Cyno on Sept 13, 2019 23:38:27 GMT -5
Vic Mignogna is also very nice to people at cons. Sometimes a little too nice. It doesn't invalidate all the horror stories about him either.
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Post by Jacy Derangement Syndrome on Sept 13, 2019 23:43:11 GMT -5
You use the example of the Young Bucks not being in on Cornette’s jokes. Why would they have to be? The LGBTQIA community isn’t in on Chappelle’s jokes either. Cornette and Chappelle are both still successful in their respective fields. Bigotry tends not to be very amusing for the demographic being mocked repeatedly
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Post by Cyno on Sept 13, 2019 23:48:57 GMT -5
Also "it's just jokes, bro" has been used to excuse a lot of really shitty behavior from all sorts of entertainment personalities. You can probably write an entire Wikipedia article about the number of times Pewdiepie's used the excuse.
For a much more recent and relevant example: see brand new SNL hire Shane Gillis who's made a lot of racist and homophobic "jokes." But none of the people he's making jokes at the expense of are laughing with him.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Sept 13, 2019 23:53:19 GMT -5
You use the example of the Young Bucks not being in on Cornette’s jokes. Why would they have to be? The LGBTQIA community isn’t in on Chappelle’s jokes either. Cornette and Chappelle are both still successful in their respective fields. Bigotry tends not to be very amusing for the demographic being mocked repeatedly Yea, what about X isn't really working here As said already, Chapelle goes too far in his jokes and I thnk he is a little homophobic, if not he leans on that joke too hard No real point in splitting hairs on dudes because that just opens up a whole different can of worms.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Sept 13, 2019 23:55:54 GMT -5
"No guys when I called Jordynne Grace 'butterface', told another female twitter user to spend more time in the kitchen, and when Ryan Satin called me out on it and I said 'you can't say that's not the normal place for the average American housewife, that's not sexist it's just stating facts' I was satirically pretending to be a sexist dickbag. For satire. And comedy. And that's why I then retweeted a bunch of 'I don't agree with your politics but I love the way you trigger snowflakes' tweets. It's all performance art, where the performance is me being able to say awful shit under the guise of it being funny allegedly!"
Same old shit every time. That shit's not a comedy routine because he chuckles and runs his mouth on a podcast instead of to anyone's face. It doesn't belie any sort of darker response or intention in there that he has to resort again and again to using bigotry to run down people who he doesn't like. Shit, I'll riff on someone non-stop if there's nothing stopping me, somehow actual slurs never seem to leave my mouth in the process because I don't need to use hateful language to rip into someone. Cornette's a joke and the idea that his stuff is all totally cool and not bad because it's 'an act' is an even bigger joke, but not particularly funny. Cornette's an entertainer? Cool. He ain't entertaining me.
Something something 'you can't bring people watching WWE in spite of Saudi shows into this because it's not literally running Saudi Arabia shows themselves and the established bar for hypocrisy is proven to solely be doing that exact literal thing as every step of the shirt fiasco proved'. But hell, the Saudi Arabia thing might even be a great comparison point; few people try to actually justify the Saudi shit or claim it's cool and the people who pull the 'you don't care about human rights you just want a reason to complain about Vince' are actual f***ing jokes who I should legally be allowed to hunt for sport. It's widely seen as an abhorrent element that a lot of people have tuned out of the company over. Those who haven't see it as a black mark on the company and don't try to defend it. Compare that to here, where the argument raised of 'is the sentiment any wrestler needs to listen to Cornette a valid one if he's going to act so inflammatory to the friends and colleagues of this generation' is just flat-out ignored so instead people can jerk off a promotion that died twenty five years ago because they don't want to confront the possibility that maybe there's a fallible and unsavory element to his act that alienates his own points and desires from the community at large.
Jim Cornette puts a name and a face to his hate. It's never just broadly a joke about a hypothetical or about a broad bunch of people. It's names. It's events. This person specifically is horrible and should bleed out. This guy should be banned from the business and beaten by everyone for disgracing it. You, dissenting fan, need to spend more time in the kitchen. He's not on stage talking in the general, he's right there in the trenches singling out specific people to scream at. It's not even a good comparison, the hate is direct and directed at a name.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Sept 13, 2019 23:56:07 GMT -5
Also "it's just jokes, bro" has been used to excuse a lot of really shitty behavior from all sorts of entertainment personalities. You can probably write an entire Wikipedia article about the number of times Pewdiepie's used the excuse. For a much more recent and relevant example: see brand new SNL hire Shane Gillis who's made a lot of racist and homophobic "jokes." But none of the people he's making jokes at the expense of are laughing with him. "It's just insert example here" is a dangerous precedent Vic is arguing he was just a little friendly, yeah okay dude you were more than friendly. For Cornette, because his behavior is repeated, he is now an entertainer. That is the justification now, okay I don't get it and as said I like Cornette as a historian but this shit shouldn't fly
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Post by Jacy Derangement Syndrome on Sept 13, 2019 23:57:19 GMT -5
Bigotry tends not to be very amusing for the demographic being mocked repeatedly Yea, what about X isn't really working here As said already, Chapelle goes too far in his jokes and I thnk he is a little homophobic, if not he leans on that joke too hard No real point in splitting hairs on dudes because that just opens up a whole different can of worms. Yeah, I'm definitely not planning to, it's just Wow what a statement that was, lol.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Sept 13, 2019 23:58:54 GMT -5
Yea, what about X isn't really working here As said already, Chapelle goes too far in his jokes and I thnk he is a little homophobic, if not he leans on that joke too hard No real point in splitting hairs on dudes because that just opens up a whole different can of worms. Yeah, I'm definitely not planning to, it's just Wow what a statement that was, lol. Which is why I just didn't respond it because there was no point lol. It was a deflection I could pick it apart and debate it but I feel like i've done enough of that and will just say I disagree with that long statement and let it go
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Sept 14, 2019 0:03:20 GMT -5
"No guys when I called Jordynne Grace 'butterface', told another female twitter user to spend more time in the kitchen, and when Ryan Satin called me out on it and I said 'you can't say that's not the normal place for the average American housewife, that's not sexist it's just stating facts' I was satirically pretending to be a sexist dickbag. For satire. And comedy. And that's why I then retweeted a bunch of 'I don't agree with your politics but I love the way you trigger snowflakes' tweets. It's all performance art, where the performance is me being able to say awful shit under the guise of it being funny allegedly!" To focus in on this, where is the joke about being called a butterface when the context of the original statement had nothing to do with looks whatsoever It is uncalled for and very childish for a grown man to respond that way because someone disagreed with him.
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Post by The 1Watcher Experience on Sept 14, 2019 1:29:22 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm definitely not planning to, it's just Wow what a statement that was, lol. Which is why I just didn't respond it because there was no point lol. It was a deflection I could pick it apart and debate it but I feel like i've done enough of that and will just say I disagree with that long statement and let it go Or you like Dave Chappelle too much and can overlook what many have called a racist and homophobic routine. Cornette supports gay marriage and is just as passionate about it as when he’s doing one of his routines where he’s burying people in the wrestling business that he’s not fond of. Yet an unfortunate use of an outdated term is used as evidence to bury him further. Yeah, it’s been nice talking to you but I think we’re done here.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Sept 14, 2019 1:37:33 GMT -5
Which is why I just didn't respond it because there was no point lol. It was a deflection I could pick it apart and debate it but I feel like i've done enough of that and will just say I disagree with that long statement and let it go Or you like Dave Chappelle too much and can overlook what many have called a racist and homophobic routine. Cornette supports gay marriage and is just as passionate about it as when he’s doing one of his routines where he’s burying people in the wrestling business that he’s not fond of. Yet an unfortunate use of an outdated term is used as evidence to bury him further. Yeah, it’s been nice talking to you but I think we’re done here. If you see below I have stated it at least twice in this thread. In regards to people picking on Cornette, An "unfortunate" use of the word was used in a disparaging way to talk about a person. But if you want to keep saying it is a part of a routine than so be it but I just wanted to get that part in just in case so that is clear. Someone can be liked and still be called out for iffy behavior You use the example of the Young Bucks not being in on Cornette’s jokes. Why would they have to be? The LGBTQIA community isn’t in on Chappelle’s jokes either. Cornette and Chappelle are both still successful in their respective fields. Bigotry tends not to be very amusing for the demographic being mocked repeatedly Yea, what about X isn't really working here As said already, Chapelle goes too far in his jokes and I thnk he is a little homophobic, if not he leans on that joke too hard No real point in splitting hairs on dudes because that just opens up a whole different can of worms. While we're at it, f*** Chapelle too *hits the dab with some coffee and burns the hell out of my toes* I love Chapelle but that man def has some homophobe vibes You must want to fight TJP for the rights to Dab at Bellator
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Sept 14, 2019 6:29:03 GMT -5
Has anyone ever read the book, the Giver. It was about this one guy who had all the memories of the past in his head, and in order to understand them, you had to spend time with The Giver. Well, I look at Jim like that; he has the records and the memories that people can't understand these days, and his wisdom is beyond value in a world where WWE has homogenized everything and writes the story. However, Jim is also an angry, bitter prick; who says the vilest shit because he knows he has a group of people by the shorthairs because he is the keeper of those memories in a world where more and more people yearn to learn them. So, that is why I think Jim evokes such strong memories, because he could be so much more; he can be a teacher, a giver of memories, a way to teach today about yesterday, and keep yesterday alive; and instead of that, he's an ass. Here’s the thing. It’s like the industry and the majority of the talents DON’T WANT TO KNOW about its history or how it’s supposed to be done. That’s the frustrating part and that fuels his hatred for his targets in the business. That’s because one catches more flies with honey than vinegar. Corny’s acerbity and insults have certainly helped him grow a big cult following, but IMO it’s also likely been too toxic for other people in the business (and I’m focusing on those who haven’t particularly incured his wrath) to even want to listen to, in many instances.
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Post by KofiMania on Sept 14, 2019 17:44:12 GMT -5
I can’t imagine anyone that actually listens to Cornette’s podcasts in long form would actually take the “insults” he says seriously. I mean, come on.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Sept 14, 2019 17:50:56 GMT -5
I can’t imagine anyone that actually listens to Cornette’s podcasts in long form would actually take the “insults” he says seriously. I mean, come on. Not everything he says comes from his podcast The butterface comment was not from his podcast. Snitch tweeting started that
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Post by KofiMania on Sept 14, 2019 18:14:26 GMT -5
I can’t imagine anyone that actually listens to Cornette’s podcasts in long form would actually take the “insults” he says seriously. I mean, come on. Not everything he says comes from his podcast The butterface comment was not from his podcast. Snitch tweeting started that Fair enough on that. But people that say he’s full of hate and all of this should listen to the podcasts in context.
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Post by eJm on Sept 14, 2019 18:17:16 GMT -5
Not everything he says comes from his podcast The butterface comment was not from his podcast. Snitch tweeting started that Fair enough on that. But people that say he’s full of hate and all of this should listen to the podcasts in context. Honestly, if a dude’s going to counter people who try to debate him at a reasonable level (not Starr, Ryan etc, people like Grace and Sean Sapp who do genuinely want to debate and not insult) and he counters by insulting them and saying they’re ruining the business, why should I then listen to the podcast? Like, you lost any moral high ground you have by doing that stuff, I don’t care how much history you’ve seen or know about.
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Post by Cyno on Sept 14, 2019 18:24:16 GMT -5
Why would I willingly subject myself to more Cornette if my opinion of him is so low based on... well, everything else?
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