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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2019 14:54:21 GMT -5
Interesting you say that because he's what Lance Storm just said Thank you Lance because I feel like I have been saying this since the beginning but not that articulated Combat sports have the tendency to have a flash finish. Hell, the UFC premiere on Fox was hyped up with this big HW title match and I believe it ended in like 1 min with Dos Santos knocking out Cain Yeah I think that's the big difference here. In wrestling, we're not used to that but in combat sports, it's what they do at times so yeah. With WWE people have been conditioned to believe if you lose without getting any of your offense in (and quickly) you're done and a joke but it's not really the case with MMA. Happens only with MMA fighters too I believe. I think it happened to Reigns during one of those 53430 Reigns/Lesnar matches but I'm not sure.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2019 14:57:46 GMT -5
I find Lance's argument complete nonsense. Fans should be guaranteed more action in a scripted world title fight. This is not MMA, we know this isn't real. Wrestling is about storytelling and characters. I want a story told, not bullshit MMA style finishers.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Oct 5, 2019 15:00:10 GMT -5
From an outsider looking in, I think y'all may be wishful thinking that Kofi will stick around the main event scene now instead of going back to doing the New Day stuff he was before.
From a storyline standpoint he should be right back at the top of the card, and I hope he does, he's earned it..I just have no faith that they'll actually do that instead of shunting him back down the card.
Still, no one can take his reign away.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Oct 5, 2019 15:02:18 GMT -5
Thank you Lance because I feel like I have been saying this since the beginning but not that articulated Combat sports have the tendency to have a flash finish. Hell, the UFC premiere on Fox was hyped up with this big HW title match and I believe it ended in like 1 min with Dos Santos knocking out Cain Yeah I think that's the big difference here. In wrestling, we're not used to that but in combat sports, it's what they do at times so yeah. With WWE people have been conditioned to believe if you lose without getting any of your offense in (and quickly) you're done and a joke but it's not really the case with MMA. Happens only with MMA fighters too I believe. I think it happened to Reigns during one of those 53430 Reigns/Lesnar matches but I'm not sure. Yeah, this is what I was saying earlier about people wanting finishes from nowhere. Well this is what happens in MMA. You get caught and just like that it is over. Masivdal smoked stupid Ben Askren a few weeks ago off the bell Conor caught Jorge within the first 20 seconds of their fight Other examples to throw out their but this is the type of stuff that happens. In wrestling it is a squash but in MMA and combat sports you got caught and you learn from it. Kofi got caught, getting excited and Brock beat him. Of course in wrestling they can build a story around this and potentially make it better to build on but this is why I have been discussing and saying I think it has been a bit of an overreaction. WWE knew what they was doing, they want to give this a sports feel. You got three guys in Brock, Cain, and Tyson who all are tough dudes and on top of this flash finish in the main event and the big time tale of the tape stuff they did, it fits the narrative
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Oct 5, 2019 15:05:03 GMT -5
Yeah that's what it is. The company is smarter than most fans think and when it comes to this booking they knew that fans would hate the result which in turn makes Kofi a martyr for bad booking and gets fans behind him. I mean Lesnar's entire storyline over the past 18 months is that he's a guy paid big money to come and take over, doesn't wrestle much and everyone hates it which is pretty realistic. It's not giving them too much credit because they've used this storyline in the past when it comes to Lesnar and the same when it comes to underdogs. Besides Kofi, last night they pretty much said "MMA guys are better than WWE guys" when Cain had to come out and save Mysterio so everyone in WWE falls right in line. Doesn't matter who, Vince loves his MMA people. Even Ronda herself was running roughshod until she got booed. I mean... this isn't what you're talking about, but my god, what an exhausting, depressing, unfun story. Sure, we're "worked" in the sense that we believe it's true and are mad at the heel, but why is this even supposed to be fun or entertaining to watch? Why would I have fun watching it play out? It's a heel wrestler I find annoying, a greater heel that's just this abstract thing ("the booking"), and a face I don't have faith can win. Heels are supposed to be fun to boo. We're supposed to be entertained by the stuff we watch on TV. This is just a depressing, boring slog, if it's what they're doing. I also don't believe for one second Kofi will ever pin Brock on Fox, and if the WWE wants to deliberately blur those lines between "We'll just make you think Kofi won't win, because we suck!" and "Kofi won't win because we actually really do suck," then all that does is make me care less. If there's a chance the thing I really dislike is actually real, it'll just turn me off.
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Post by RadcapRadsley on Oct 5, 2019 15:06:31 GMT -5
I find Lance's argument complete nonsense. Fans should be guaranteed more action in a scripted world title fight. This is not MMA, we know this isn't real. Wrestling is about storytelling and characters. I want a story told, not bullshit MMA style finishers. I know this is unpopular here,but I don't mind the occasional squash loss even for top guy's. The problem is the person Squashing is always Brock who is boring and just needs to go away. Wrestling would be a lot better if you mixed it up and had some matches at 5 minutes,some at 20-25 etc. If wrestling is about storytelling the only story I am getting a lot of the time is Management and Booker's want to recreate Undertaker-HBK. The spotfest/kick's out of multiple finisher formula is just as lazy as German Suplex,F5 Lol Brock wins
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2019 15:09:15 GMT -5
Yeah I think that's the big difference here. In wrestling, we're not used to that but in combat sports, it's what they do at times so yeah. With WWE people have been conditioned to believe if you lose without getting any of your offense in (and quickly) you're done and a joke but it's not really the case with MMA. Happens only with MMA fighters too I believe. I think it happened to Reigns during one of those 53430 Reigns/Lesnar matches but I'm not sure. Yeah, this is what I was saying earlier about people wanting finishes from nowhere. Well this is what happens in MMA. You get caught and just like that it is over. Masivdal smoked stupid Ben Askren a few weeks ago off the bell Conor caught Jorge within the first 20 seconds of their fight Other examples to throw out their but this is the type of stuff that happens. In wrestling it is a squash but in MMA and combat sports you got caught and you learn from it. Kofi got caught, getting excited and Brock beat him. Of course in wrestling they can build a story around this and potentially make it better to build on but this is why I have been discussing and saying I think it has been a bit of an overreaction. WWE knew what they was doing, they want to give this a sports feel. You got three guys in Brock, Cain, and Tyson who all are tough dudes and on top of this flash finish in the main event and the big time tale of the tape stuff they did, it fits the narrative Right, it happens and it would fit the narrative. All they'd have to do is just say that Kofi learned from it and then he puts up sa better fight in their next match. Like the other thread with Bryan and Sheamus, Bryan learned from his loss and put up a better effort in their 2 out of 3 falls match at the next ppv. People just have a problem with these types of stories and they don't have faith the company will do something else. Then again people didn't even have faith that Kofi would even be WWE Champion, let alone make it this long as champion, hell people were saying that New Day was going to turn on him even when New Day said numerous times "nah we're never doing that."
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Post by Some Guy on Oct 5, 2019 15:11:51 GMT -5
I find Lance's argument complete nonsense. Fans should be guaranteed more action in a scripted world title fight. This is not MMA, we know this isn't real. Wrestling is about storytelling and characters. I want a story told, not bullshit MMA style finishers. Right, like this is a huge part of why wrestling is successful. Whereas boxing or MMA or whatever can have these hyped fights end extremely quickly, with wrestling that won't happen because they map it out to ensure it'll be longer.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Oct 5, 2019 15:13:37 GMT -5
Interesting you say that because he's what Lance Storm just said Nope, don't buy it. 1. People kick out of finishers all the time. 2. Wrestling isn't MMA and that's good because MMA is boring as shit. 3. That is what precisely zero people mean when they say they want a real sports presentation and Storm knows it. People mean they want wrestlers' in-ring strengths and weaknesses discussed... to have "tale of the tape" and stuff like that, where they play up one guy's strength and another guy's experience and talk about how that'll play in to the match and then it actually does. 4. Holy shit the backflips people are doing to try to justify "big hoss squashes small fan favorite," something fans have been complaining about in the WWE for literal decades, as something new and exciting.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2019 15:16:05 GMT -5
In Bryan's loss to Sheamus, he was distracted and was the heel too. Kofi ran at Brock like an idiot and got beat. He doesn't deserve another shot after that. They could have done it a lot better if they wanted a quick win. Have Heyman distract Kofi for a second and then Brock attacks and hits the F5. Or Brock attacks Kofi before the bell to make him weak. I feel like this was done so fans get mad at the booking because they wanna create another Daniel Bryan moment which is lazy.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2019 15:16:36 GMT -5
I mean... this isn't what you're talking about, but my god, what an exhausting, depressing, unfun story. Sure, we're "worked" in the sense that we believe it's true and are mad at the heel, but why is this even supposed to be fun or entertaining to watch? Why would I have fun watching it play out? It's a heel wrestler I find annoying, a greater heel that's just this abstract thing ("the booking"), and a face I don't have faith can win. Heels are supposed to be fun to boo. We're supposed to be entertained by the stuff we watch on TV. This is just a depressing, boring slog, if it's what they're doing. I also don't believe for one second Kofi will ever pin Brock on Fox, and if the WWE wants to deliberately blur those lines between "We'll just make you think Kofi won't win, because we suck!" and "Kofi won't win because we actually really do suck," then all that does is make me care less. If there's a chance the thing I really dislike is actually real, it'll just turn me off. I don't like WWE's whole "hey we're making an angle that's blurring the lines to make fans mad" thing they do. When it's something like Kofi/Orton it works because fans weren't upset but when it's involving making fans angry like this, the whole Bryan/Authority thing, that stuff nah I don't like it. At the same time they've been known to do it and these days it's what they draw upon a lot. I remember when they did something similar to Alexa's ridiculous reign back when she was running over the entire division. Same thing happened numerous times during the "Lil Buddy Ambrose" era where they had fan favorite Ambrose beaten down by the heels purely so Big Bro Reigns could save him and then the anger of the fans can be translated to Reigns cheers.
No one thought Kofi would win and they effectively did what most people really thought. It's just not good booking. Sure, they've have this planned but they could have done it better.
But if they've got this planned and there's a story then I'll see where it goes. According to Kofi and New Day this isn't over with so we'll see.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Oct 5, 2019 15:23:20 GMT -5
Going to be interesting to see what the reaction is come HIAC
I wanted WWE to book it to how they did Kofi (before it happened to Kofi)
Bray just bum rushes Seth who will probably get a kick and curbstomp in before going for another and Bray chokes him out for a very decisive win
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2019 15:24:06 GMT -5
Eh, you also have back and forth mma matches where both fighters look better afterwards. Griffin/Bonnar for the inaugural Ultimate Fighter win became an instant classic because of how competitive it was.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2019 15:29:10 GMT -5
I mean... this isn't what you're talking about, but my god, what an exhausting, depressing, unfun story. Sure, we're "worked" in the sense that we believe it's true and are mad at the heel, but why is this even supposed to be fun or entertaining to watch? Why would I have fun watching it play out? It's a heel wrestler I find annoying, a greater heel that's just this abstract thing ("the booking"), and a face I don't have faith can win. Heels are supposed to be fun to boo. We're supposed to be entertained by the stuff we watch on TV. This is just a depressing, boring slog, if it's what they're doing. I also don't believe for one second Kofi will ever pin Brock on Fox, and if the WWE wants to deliberately blur those lines between "We'll just make you think Kofi won't win, because we suck!" and "Kofi won't win because we actually really do suck," then all that does is make me care less. If there's a chance the thing I really dislike is actually real, it'll just turn me off. I don't like WWE's whole "hey we're making an angle that's blurring the lines to make fans mad" thing they do. When it's something like Kofi/Orton it works because fans weren't upset but when it's involving making fans angry like this, the whole Bryan/Authority thing, that stuff nah I don't like it. At the same time they've been known to do it and these days it's what they draw upon a lot. I remember when they did something similar to Alexa's ridiculous reign back when she was running over the entire division. Same thing happened numerous times during the "Lil Buddy Ambrose" era where they had fan favorite Ambrose beaten down by the heels purely so Big Bro Reigns could save him and then the anger of the fans can be translated to Reigns cheers.
No one thought Kofi would win and they effectively did what most people really thought. It's just not good booking. Sure, they've have this planned but they could have done it better.
But if they've got this planned and there's a story then I'll see where it goes. According to Kofi and New Day this isn't over with so we'll see. I do think Kofi is definitely getting another shot at Brock and it will be a lot more competitive. I think it's just sad that they had a chance with a lot of new eyes on the product to make Kofi look a star but they kind of threw him to the side at the end while they focused on Brock/Cain. For example even though i'm not the biggest fan of her character right now, Becky looked great out there with The Rock at the start of the show.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2019 15:48:07 GMT -5
I don't like WWE's whole "hey we're making an angle that's blurring the lines to make fans mad" thing they do. When it's something like Kofi/Orton it works because fans weren't upset but when it's involving making fans angry like this, the whole Bryan/Authority thing, that stuff nah I don't like it. At the same time they've been known to do it and these days it's what they draw upon a lot. I remember when they did something similar to Alexa's ridiculous reign back when she was running over the entire division. Same thing happened numerous times during the "Lil Buddy Ambrose" era where they had fan favorite Ambrose beaten down by the heels purely so Big Bro Reigns could save him and then the anger of the fans can be translated to Reigns cheers.
No one thought Kofi would win and they effectively did what most people really thought. It's just not good booking. Sure, they've have this planned but they could have done it better.
But if they've got this planned and there's a story then I'll see where it goes. According to Kofi and New Day this isn't over with so we'll see. I do think Kofi is definitely getting another shot at Brock and it will be a lot more competitive. I think it's just sad that they had a chance with a lot of new eyes on the product to make Kofi look a star but they kind of threw him to the side at the end while they focused on Brock/Cain. For example even though i'm not the biggest fan of her character right now, Becky looked great out there with The Rock at the start of the show. Yeah a while back I heard that Kofi/Brock had been scheduled in at least 1 other town so who knows. They really could have elevated Kofi here but it went another direction so until I get confirmation that they're done with him I'll keep seeing. It's like Kofi earlier this year. With everything he did most people said "nah he's not getting any further, they're done with him" and he kept pushing. In this case according to what Kofi, Xavier and others have said they're still headed towards Brock so we'll see.
Becky was brought back to the Becky we loved from earlier this year with that segment, she looked dope. Kofi on the other hand nah, that's just not good.
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Woo
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Woo on Oct 5, 2019 15:51:25 GMT -5
Aight, I've slept on it. Here's my two big thoughts. f*** Brock Lesnar and his punk ass daddy. I am...actually ok with this? It's like MMA when somebody gets blasted with a lucky shot in the opening seconds and loses. You didn't get beat, you got caught. It's happened to the best in the world, including Brock himself. If Kofi had to lose, I prefer this than him getting beat in a usual 8 minute Brock fest. That being said, the boy better getting strapped up at Mania after slapping Brock around or I'mma be hot. Interesting you say that because he's what Lance Storm just said No Lance wrestling fans have been conditioned to think of you lose in seconds you've been completely outclassed. Yes in MMA fights can last seconds, but this is a work and disappointingly short matches is the thing we can fix on this fake sport.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2019 15:52:57 GMT -5
What an ignominious end to Kofi's reign. Brock's been having competitive matches with everyone lately, but Kofi gets tossed away like a piece of trash so we can get the OMG REAL FIGHTER showdown? Trash. Kofi had a solid run, but like any form of entertainment, a shitty ending does have an effect on what proceeded it and how it's perceived overall.
Admittedly, how (if) they follow it up can change everything. I was disliking Kofi's rise when they turned him into Super Kofi and had him running through everyone in the gauntlet matches, but it ended up being the best story they've told in a long, long time. So we'll see, but it's hard to be optimistic when you look at the number of booking failures over the last few years.
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riseofsetian1981
King Koopa
"I met him fifteen years ago. I was told there was nothing left."
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Oct 5, 2019 16:01:30 GMT -5
I caught some of Smackdown on Fox and hated the presentation. It doesn't feel like a professional wrestling atmosphere to me and I just couldn't get into the element.
As far as Brock winning the championship? I expected it to be honest. Now that AEW is an alternative to the repetitive and stale nature of the WWE product I have that now. With that said, I will say this with certainity. IF The Fiend loses tomorrow I am done with the WWE. Done for good. Bray's The Fiend character is what actually brought me back into the fold.
However, if what I fear comes to fruition tomorrow I am done and will be fully on board with AEW and will never look back. Brock winning the championship wasn't going to make or break me since we all expected it.
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Post by Tenshigure on Oct 5, 2019 16:15:05 GMT -5
Why does Lance speak as if the audience wants what the WWE is presenting? If that were true, they wouldn't be bleeding attendance numbers and ratings like they have the last several years.
Yeah, it's on me that the Kofi/Lesnar match was complete shit. Thankfully, there isn't a monopoly on mainstream pro wrestling on American television anymore and I can give my focus to other companies that haven't abused my fandom for the last decade. I'll still support the very talented men and women you employ, and hell I'll probably still even give NXT a view every now and then. But outside of maybe a few YouTube highlight videos, my Mondays and Fridays are completely cleared at this point until some serious changes are made.
As for 'big plans for Kofi,' ask Kevin Owens or Asuka how their redemption arcs went after losing their momentum in the blink of an eye. Sure, give it a few years and maybe he'll be back, but with the track record WWE has had with how hard of a turn they made, I'm not holding my breath.
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Post by eJm on Oct 5, 2019 16:28:46 GMT -5
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