spagett
Hank Scorpio
Great Job!
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Post by spagett on Oct 23, 2019 5:15:26 GMT -5
Eh, I'm not mad at him saying this. Mainly because there are indeed an immense amount of critiques and criticism towards the product today, a lot of it negative, and I think just the sheer volume of it is irking everyone in the company a little bit. It's like any given person in any given room with like 4 others trying to talk to them at the same time. They would be inclined to just yell "Shut up!" at all the noise. I think the company deserves the criticism though. Their creative has never been so bad. They ignored any criticism for about 15 years and just did whatever they wanted and it's only in the last 18 months when ratings have completely collapsed that they seem to have realised they need to try and do something about it.
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Post by Super Duper Dragunov on Oct 23, 2019 5:20:03 GMT -5
You can actually see Vince McMahon's hand in the back moving Show's mouth if you look closely enough.
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Post by eJm on Oct 23, 2019 5:21:35 GMT -5
...OK, there are a couple. At least a couple video game companies with a "just shut up and enjoy the product" mentality. EA is a good one. EA loves throwing its employees under the bus for its decisions more than it does actually hate its customers, really.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 5:23:38 GMT -5
Yeah I saw this yesterday and was gonna make a thread but then said nah, not gonna. That's his opinion and he feels it works for him so he's suggesting something that he's seen work. No use for me to make a thread on someone's opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 5:45:10 GMT -5
I know that other posters have asked this before, but I think it should be repeated here: is there any other company that actively hates it's fan base as much as WWE? DC, offhand.
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4TheGlory
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Post by 4TheGlory on Oct 23, 2019 5:47:18 GMT -5
I am confused why some wrestlers/people in the WWE think people have some obligation to watch their shows. Not even just enjoy them, but just watch them even if the viewer isn't enjoying what they are seeing
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 5:47:52 GMT -5
I mean it's true you can't make everyone happy, but fans are always going to fantasy book and "direct" even if the product's good.
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Post by arrogantmodel on Oct 23, 2019 5:52:21 GMT -5
Ok, so wrestling was on fire from 97-01. I was a teenager (14-18) and the target demographic. My friends and I were hanging on every character, angle, show, and match. Everything they did was interesting.
Now I'm 36. WCW is long dead. Austin and Rock and Foley aren't coming back. Undertaker is embarrassing himself. And Triple H is running things (sort of). However, the WWE has a crazy talented roster, who:
A)Are around my age and younger. And B) Also grew up in the Attitude Era.
They know and we know how interesting and exciting things can be. But Vince forces everybody and everything to be so painfully cookie cutter and boring. Not to mention insanely frustrating. How many bait and switches do we get A SHOW?!
How many ridiculously mediocre and disappointing results do we get every week? How many times do the wrestlers say and use the same tired clichés?
We can determine what will happen before it happens months in advance. We know who is winning the Rumble, we know who is doing what at Mania, we know Brock is winning the title in less than two minutes.
This is just garbage time. Faces are idiots and assholes. Heels are chickenshits who always blame "You people!" The WWF used to open every show and even video game with JR yelling, "This is proof that anything can happen in the World Wrestling Federation!" That shit hasn't been true in over a decade.
Shit, I went to school for Media Production, and even I don't try to "direct" the show. I don't work for WWE, I am watching purely as a fan, and they just give me pile after pile of horseshit. I can go weeks or months without watching, and when I do, guess what? It's like I didn't miss a thing.
The WWE doesn't give a good god damn anymore. Until AEW really catches fire (which I pray that it does) Vince has no major competition, and he will keep taking blood money and Fox money while telling us real longtime fans to go f*** ourselves.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Oct 23, 2019 5:57:53 GMT -5
Opinion or not, the overall contempt WWE and wrestlers seem to have from fans who have any incling of a problem or displeasure about their company and how the show may look, feel, or be booked, never ceases to amaze me.
You've lost millions of viewers, that's not debatable, and they have not come back. Eventually you're gonna have to realize, it's not the people who are the problem. You're putting on a very shit product, that is very stagnant, and people are getting tired of hitching their wagon to and devoting time to, just to be told they should shut up and enjoy it.
That's not how it works, and they're finding that out, quite harshly I might add.
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Nikki Heyman
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Post by Nikki Heyman on Oct 23, 2019 6:03:30 GMT -5
I am confused why some wrestlers/people in the WWE think people have some obligation to watch their shows. Not even just enjoy them, but just watch them even if the viewer isn't enjoying what they are seeing I am confused why fans think that WWE has ever held a gun to their heads to watch the product. If you don't like, don't watch. I still don't see what's so complicated about that sentiment, especially now that there's so much more out there TO watch. And those that don't watch complain about it anyway. OT, Big Show isn't ordering you to watch it, either. Given that more than 3/4 of what's written about WWE that isn't WWE or one of its major sponsors is negative, Show has a right to speak on this. So did Little Naitch. So did Xavier. So did Rollins. So did Uncle Paul.
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Post by Starshine on Oct 23, 2019 6:23:57 GMT -5
Like I find if I’m watching something and a scene happens in a way I don’t like, I’ll immediately think of ways I would have preferred to see it go so I can discuss it with others later.
Problem is with WWE is half the shit that hits air makes no sense. Stuff happens and can be retconned as quickly as it occurs. How can you not try to process what you see in front of you, at least as a means of trying to make sense of the nonsense.
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Post by arrogantmodel on Oct 23, 2019 6:24:07 GMT -5
I am confused why some wrestlers/people in the WWE think people have some obligation to watch their shows. Not even just enjoy them, but just watch them even if the viewer isn't enjoying what they are seeing I am confused why fans think that WWE has ever held a gun to their heads to watch the product. If you don't like, don't watch. I still don't see what's so complicated about that sentiment, especially now that there's so much more out there TO watch. And those that don't watch complain about it anyway. OT, Big Show isn't ordering you to watch it, either. Given that more than 3/4 of what's written about WWE that isn't WWE or one of its major sponsors is negative, Show has a right to speak on this. So did Little Naitch. So did Xavier. So did Rollins. So did Uncle Paul. Because the WWF/E has been the "big leagues" forever. Wrestling fans and non-wrestling fans know those letters. They have given us Hulk Hogan, the Macho Man, The Undertaker, Stone Cold, The Rock, Bret Hart, and John Cena. They gave us The Rock & Wrestling Era, The New Generation, and The Attitude Era. Larger than life characters, incredible matches, and memorable stories. All of that from about 1984 with the birth of Wrestlemania to arguably the greatest Wrestlemania of all time with X-7. And aside from a few down years in the mid-90s (due to outside factors) the WWF/E has been top shelf entertainment. But since the mid to late 2000s, it has gone way WAY downhill. Ok, Benoit happened. That changed things for the better. Drug testing, no more headshots, etc. But the grittiness was lost as well. And again, nobody is screaming for bloodbaths and swearing and bra & panty matches, but the big characters, intriguing storylines, and unpredictably was lost too. Every character is weak. Almost every angle ends in disappointment. Every show is painfully dull and nonsensical and meaningless. The actual wrestlers are handcuffed and shoved aside for UFC people. We are constantly subjected to bait and switches, and that's their idea of unpredictability these days. The last interesting things to happen for me was the rise of Daniel Bryan and The Shield. We watch because we've watched for years, and we know what the WWE COULD BE. We've seen it. We've loved it. For me, it's that gambler's mentality of, "Yeah, things have really sucked for a long time, but things have to turn around eventually." Unfortunately, I feel like the only way to change our luck is if and when Vince finally is no longer around.
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 23, 2019 6:29:03 GMT -5
I don't think Show's trying to be a jerk here, but still, it has to be said:
You know what I "sit back, watch, and not try to direct"? My favorite promotions.
My posting history shows I watch a lot of New Japan. You know who my favorite guys are in that promotion? Minoru Suzuki, Hirooki Goto, Tomohiro Ishii, EVIL, Shingo Takagi, and other "strong style bruiser" types. You know what kind of guys will never hold the IWGP as NJPW is currently constituted, sans Katsuyori Shibata if he had stayed healthy? The "strong style bruiser" guys.
And yet! And yet I still watch NJPW regularly, cheer on my favorites, dislike when they lose, but otherwise enjoy the rest of the show, because I still really like the stories they tell, the matches they have, and the overall presentation of the show. Things have happened over the years that I've disagreed with, that I didn't want to see happen, etc., but the matches have a purpose and I never feel like I'm wasting my time watching.
Honestly, that's how I felt back in the ROH golden era. I currently also feel engaged when I'm watching AEW, or when I see a main event angle in MLW, and I'm even getting that vibe from Impact and the NWA lately. God, I miss the hell out of Lucha Underground. None of these promotions are always going to book things I like or agree with, but so far each of them has been, for the most part, enjoyable on some level, which allows me to watch without over-analyzing in a negative way, because instead I'm focused on feeling entertained.
I'm sure there are some fans out there who'll whine over anything you give them; we all know such people exist. But the root issue is that WCW died because their product wasn't very good, WWE's numbers have consistently gone down because their product isn't very good, TNA had the same problem, etc.
Basically, there's too much good wrestling on now to watch a show that makes you want to "armchair direct" it because it's not otherwise entertaining you. 95% of the audience WANTS to be entertained, but when they're not, that's what you're going to get.
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Post by Loser troll. Please ban me on Oct 23, 2019 6:53:58 GMT -5
He’s right in a sense. Lots of fans watch wrestling as if they’re the producer or the writers. I’ve done it myself. I find myself enjoying it a hell of a lot more when I’m not playing arm chair booker. Why? Because I don’t play out scenarios in my head and then be upset when they don’t come through. But shit like The Fiend/Rollins at HIAC, The Wild Card Rule etc just sucks ass and there is no defending that. We are not rebelling, we are voicing our opinion. There’s a difference. To paraphrase the Simpsons: Could it be the rancid cuck angles?, The do nothing 24/7 R Truth title?, The undermining of anyone who gets over with the fans?, The bait and switch matches?, The tasteless deal with a country they won't even pubically name?, The Main titles going awol 80% time because you've put them on a part-timer?, Deliberately not using people because "You've got nothing for them"?, The Midcard titles meaning so little you forget who has them or maybe the hackneyed finishes they keep booking for major PPVs?... Is the WWE out of touch?.No....Its the fans who are wrong
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Oct 23, 2019 7:02:39 GMT -5
I am confused why some wrestlers/people in the WWE think people have some obligation to watch their shows. Not even just enjoy them, but just watch them even if the viewer isn't enjoying what they are seeing I am confused why fans think that WWE has ever held a gun to their heads to watch the product. If you don't like, don't watch. I still don't see what's so complicated about that sentiment, especially now that there's so much more out there TO watch. And those that don't watch complain about it anyway. Because the weird cult line that comes out of people isn't that people don't like what's being offered and should tune out, but that people who don't like it secretly do like it and just want to hate it, and are determined to act like they know better. It's not a gun to peoples' heads, but it's a deflection of criticism that prevents them from ever being able to fix what's wrong, because they've convinced themselves the only problem is the people denying themselves this totally cool good thing. It's never "Don't like it? Don't watch it", it's always "No you just want to be cool and act like you hate something" and it's really f***ing dumb. The people sticking with WWE want to like it, and are determined to put up with as much terrible as they can hoping it gets better, and now, people are realizing it isn't, and they're bailing. But people stay in its orbit wanting to like it, wanting to come back, if only they would get into shape. All of that comes together to form something really complex and driven by different reasons from different people. Who are then told "Be a fan" or have any concerns brushed off to single out the extreme hate goblins on twitter. Being dismissed like that isn't going to sit well with people.
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4TheGlory
Vegeta
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Posts: 9,752
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Post by 4TheGlory on Oct 23, 2019 7:05:15 GMT -5
I am confused why some wrestlers/people in the WWE think people have some obligation to watch their shows. Not even just enjoy them, but just watch them even if the viewer isn't enjoying what they are seeing I am confused why fans think that WWE has ever held a gun to their heads to watch the product. If you don't like, don't watch. I still don't see what's so complicated about that sentiment, especially now that there's so much more out there TO watch. And those that don't watch complain about it anyway. OT, Big Show isn't ordering you to watch it, either. Given that more than 3/4 of what's written about WWE that isn't WWE or one of its major sponsors is negative, Show has a right to speak on this. So did Little Naitch. So did Xavier. So did Rollins. So did Uncle Paul. Me and a lot of other people stopped watching regularly for awhile now. You can’t pretend WWE doesn’t have an elitist attitude towards their own fans. There’s always someone they blame for their shortcomings and it conveniently isn’t ever themselves.
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
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Post by Bo Rida on Oct 23, 2019 7:20:12 GMT -5
If you don't want people watching shows with a backstage mindset maybe don't book angles around backstage stuff?
The main job of everybody involved in the on screen product is to maintain suspension of disbelief. Everyone watching wants that feeling of being completely caught up in the monent. If they do that people won't have their directors hat on.
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Nikki Heyman
Fry's dog Seymour
EXTREEEEEME Pony Manager
✬ Believe In The Fight ✬
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Post by Nikki Heyman on Oct 23, 2019 7:35:39 GMT -5
Because the WWF/E has been the "big leagues" forever. Wrestling fans and non-wrestling fans know those letters. They have given us Hulk Hogan, the Macho Man, The Undertaker, Stone Cold, The Rock, Bret Hart, and John Cena. They gave us The Rock & Wrestling Era, The New Generation, and The Attitude Era. Larger than life characters, incredible matches, and memorable stories. All of that from about 1984 with the birth of Wrestlemania to arguably the greatest Wrestlemania of all time with X-7. And aside from a few down years in the mid-90s (due to outside factors) the WWF/E has been top shelf entertainment. But since the mid to late 2000s, it has gone way WAY downhill. Ok, Benoit happened. That changed things for the better. Drug testing, no more headshots, etc. But the grittiness was lost as well. And again, nobody is screaming for bloodbaths and swearing and bra & panty matches, but the big characters, intriguing storylines, and unpredictably was lost too. Every character is weak. Almost every angle ends in disappointment. Every show is painfully dull and nonsensical and meaningless. The actual wrestlers are handcuffed and shoved aside for UFC people. We are constantly subjected to bait and switches, and that's their idea of unpredictability these days. The last interesting things to happen for me was the rise of Daniel Bryan and The Shield. We watch because we've watched for years, and we know what the WWE COULD BE. We've seen it. We've loved it. For me, it's that gambler's mentality of, "Yeah, things have really sucked for a long time, but things have to turn around eventually." Unfortunately, I feel like the only way to change our luck is if and when Vince finally is no longer around. so the short answer here is "it's a habit because they were the only act in town"? You can keep "gambling" but if you've been disappointed for so long, there's more options than ever. Come back after Vince passes on. Actually, give it about six months after he passes to get whatever he had planned to wrap up. Because the weird cult line that comes out of people isn't that people don't like what's being offered and should tune out, but that people who don't like it secretly do like it and just want to hate it, and are determined to act like they know better. It's not a gun to peoples' heads, but it's a deflection of criticism that prevents them from ever being able to fix what's wrong, because they've convinced themselves the only problem is the people denying themselves this totally cool good thing. It's never "Don't like it? Don't watch it", it's always "No you just want to be cool and act like you hate something" and it's really f***ing dumb. The people sticking with WWE want to like it, and are determined to put up with as much terrible as they can hoping it gets better, and now, people are realizing it isn't, and they're bailing. But people stay in its orbit wanting to like it, wanting to come back, if only they would get into shape. All of that comes together to form something really complex and driven by different reasons from different people. Who are then told "Be a fan" or have any concerns brushed off to single out the extreme hate goblins on twitter. Being dismissed like that isn't going to sit well with people. Because WWE has tried to give fans what they asked for, and they still complain. Fans can get it exactly how they asked for it, and still complain. The default setting, it seems, is that everything WWE does is wrong and nothing they can do is right because it was "too late" or "Done wrong" or, in some cases, "Already ruined FOREVER". WWE has tried. They're not asking you to "accept it and shut up". They're asking you to keep an open mind but so many people have their minds already made up that they'll look at a preview, decide it's going to suck but watch anyway, or not watch, read a negatively slanted review (which is the majority of them out there, btw) and say "I didn't watch but I bet it sucked." Me and a lot of other people stopped watching regularly for awhile now. You can’t pretend WWE doesn’t have an elitist attitude towards their own fans. There’s always someone they blame for their shortcomings and it conveniently isn’t ever themselves. It might come across as elitist but when you have shareholders, networks, advertisers and public opinion giving you 10 different answers you're going to piss SOMEONE off.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Oct 23, 2019 7:41:34 GMT -5
WWE: If you don't like the show, quit complaining and don't watch! Millions of Fans: K
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Oct 23, 2019 7:46:06 GMT -5
.......
But I just got hired to direct an episode of the Big Show Show
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