Spider2024
Patti Mayonnaise
Dedicated 6,666th post to Irontyger
I believe in Joe Hendry.
Posts: 39,369
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Post by Spider2024 on Oct 23, 2019 17:06:30 GMT -5
There is a serious, systematic problem in WWE. It’s not the fans, and not caused by the fans, it’s that the onscreen product just isn’t the least bit interesting right now and Vince either doesn’t see it, doesn’t care or has no f***ing clue what to do. A top to bottom change of the product is needed right now, and I just don’t see it on the horizon. I’m a firm believer that WWE should NOT just give the fans everything they want, but they’ve completely lost the ability to convince the fans what they’re giving them is what they want. Which, really, is the key to promoting. Couldn’t tell you how many MMA fights looked lame as hell on paper, then you see a kickass trailer or poster or preview show and suddenly you’re absolutely jacked for the fight. WWE has completely lost the ability to do that. That's actually a valid point. Because in reality, WWE does indeed offer quite a bit of what fans want (good workers, good matches with good workers, validity in women's wrestling, multiple ways to watch, PPVs for only $10, etc.) but it also seems like it's very easy to forget stuff because of all the not-so-smart stuff they also do. Imagine this conversation happening in March of this year, from a time traveler or Nostradamus or sth: "What if I told you Kofi Kingston would indeed become WWE World Champion, and hold the title for 6 whole months?" "That would be AWESOME! Welp, nice talking to you." "Wait... don't you want to know how the reign ends?" "OK, yes, yes I wanna know." "...No you don't." Now, we all know Kofi's reign still happened. It wasn't erased from history, and was still meaningful and important. But there was such a negative reaction to how it ended, it was basically like completing a nice juicy steak, but somehow the final bite more resembled a fast food burger made hours before and is now at room temperature and disgusting. Yes, the anger (at least part of it) came about because of WWE falling back into old habits of part-timers & celebs getting too good & too high of a spot. Still, it's amazing that WWE somehow has that "magic" to make it seem like a 6 month reign was ended because WWE has an itchy trigger finger and thinks about the short boosts & payday way too often over the course of a year. No, WWE doesn't need to give the fans EVERY-everything (I keep going back to the Zack Ryder rise, where him winning the lowly U.S. Title was still seen as a great victory for the voice of the fanbase) but it seems like the bads outweigh the goods. Part of that can be pointed as fans, especially the negative ones, being louder today thanks to social media, but you can also point to WWE playing it safe for the vast majority of the year, treading water until only the biggest days of the year like WM where only then do they feel the need to give fans the best of goods. Because any of the big winners of matches don't really matter on days other than WrestleMania Day or Royal Rumble day, right?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 17:39:50 GMT -5
For years they convinced themselves that a certain number of fans will always watch them, and so they think they can talk to the fanbase however they want. Ratings keep dropping and they still haven't learned.
I watch the PPVs, NWA Power, AEW and New Japan and a few indies. Wrestling is amazing right now. I couldn't imagine wasting my time on these guys 5 hours a week
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krozor
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,377
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Post by krozor on Oct 23, 2019 18:44:35 GMT -5
If I have to try as hard as I can to shut my brain off to enjoy something then why would I want to watch it when I can watch something that actually gets me invested W H Y
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 18:56:30 GMT -5
Like I'm going to listen to somebody who blew all his money on a strip mall anyway.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 19:02:56 GMT -5
He's an enormous man who has displayed freakish athleticism at times and became an excellent worker over time. If there was any justice, he would have been consistently booked like Brock Lesnar and used as the final test for up-and-coming faces for at least a decade.
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Post by TWERKIN' MAGGLE on Oct 23, 2019 21:29:19 GMT -5
After watching Dynamite...
I reiterate. Go f*** yourself Show, you're a moron.
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Post by Mister Pigwell on Oct 23, 2019 21:31:08 GMT -5
After watching Dynamite... I reiterate. Go f*** yourself Show, you're a moron. Same with NXT. People don't pick apart these shows because they're not awful.
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Post by edgestar on Oct 23, 2019 21:58:36 GMT -5
Big Show just found out that my mom bought me a box of honey comb, with him on it, so he's all happy
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ssdrivin
ALF
Claims to be squishy, has yet to be proven.
Posts: 1,042
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Post by ssdrivin on Oct 23, 2019 22:51:10 GMT -5
Thing is, I think we’re making Show’s words more than they actually are. I don’t think he’s saying “you’re wrong for disliking the show” but more of “if you’re watching just to negatively critique, you’ll never come around.” having said that, I don’t think he was offensive in anyway, but after a certain age fans don’t watch to just enjoy it. Being “in” on it all makes it all the more fun and when you reach that point, sitting in the metaphorical director’s chair is kind of a conditioned response.
Over time I think the window for giving them slack moves. The more this message of "just shut up and watch, why aren't you being mindless drones? why must you fail to conform?" comes up, from more and more WWE employees, the more you have to try hard to make it not sound like you're dismissing fans who have real concerns about the quality of the shows. The straw that breaks the camel's back, if you like, you can only hear that sentiment expressed so many times before you just start assuming they're all unquestioningly singing from the same corporate hymn sheet (literally, in some companies' cases, see: IBM's songbooks) and that they're all just repeating the opinions of the higher-ups and not actually listening at all.
As I mentioned, Roman still gets away with it, but you have to stand out as really trying to be diplomatic to do that. You must show a level of empathy for the fans, the threshold for which increases upwards the more other employees express combative viewpoints, because in addition to trying to express to the fans that you know the show could be better, you're now having to compensate for the damaging PR your coworkers are doing which is making fans less receptive to your viewpoint. Eventually, with very few exceptions, that level is going to rise to "no, I've heard all this before, I don't believe you and I don't trust you" for almost every expression of defensive response by WWE's employees.
They need to stop using these same expressions, they need more carrot and less stick, they're only hurting their ability to bring people back around if and when the shows do improve in the eyes of people who can no longer enjoy them as they are. Stop saying fans are dumb, stop saying fans don't know what they want, stop saying fans they can't know what they like if they've never been a wrestler, stop telling people they're wrong for not enjoying the shows, stop pretending like WWE is some holier-than-thou entity that's too big and too kind to be anything less than perfect. We all live in the same universe here, we're not blind to the way the product looks (and really, how can you be, if you're genuinely interested in it?), we can see that the PR spin doesn't match reality, you can't piss on fans and tell them it's raining without appearing blatantly untrustworthy (or worse, malicious).
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Oct 23, 2019 23:10:29 GMT -5
It's this battle of winning back goodwill that will be the absolute hardest one that WWE will have to fight. The problems that WWE have aren't going to be resolved with a quick fix, no matter how many times they try, but the rusted-on cynicism and lack of goodwill that has come a result of that, as well as so many promises of reboots to the TV product that don't pan out, leads to a situation where hardly anyone is going to give them the time to do the long-term fixes they so desperately need.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 23:22:54 GMT -5
Okay, so let me preface this by saying that the only WWE shows I've actually watched in full since Money in the Bank are SummerSlam and the Raw and SmackDown *season premieres*.
You know why it's so hard to quit WWE even at the times when it's a complete dumpster fire?
Because sometimes they surprise you. Every once in awhile, there can just be something amazing that makes it worth it. The Nexus angle is a pretty famous example of that, an absolutely shit Raw that ended with an amazing segment. And really while it certainly went off the rails, nothing WWE has done since the Nexus has invested me as thoroughly as that angle did.
It's hard to not give them the benefit of the doubt because even at their worst they sometimes are capable of putting on amazing television. Just the problem is they very rarely, especially these days, can be assed to even try.
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Mochi Lone Wolf
Fry's dog Seymour
Development through Destruction.
Posts: 24,047
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Oct 24, 2019 0:43:10 GMT -5
Amazing. Someone actually said it in a way that didn't make them come off terribly. Almost like it's not actually that hard to do if your skin isn't paper-thin.
That said, I still strongly disagree. If what I'm watching is bad, then I'm going to say so. Especially because it really shouldn't be this bad with the talent they have.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Oct 24, 2019 3:54:48 GMT -5
Okay, so let me preface this by saying that the only WWE shows I've actually watched in full since Money in the Bank are SummerSlam and the Raw and SmackDown *season premieres*. You know why it's so hard to quit WWE even at the times when it's a complete dumpster fire? Because sometimes they surprise you. Every once in awhile, there can just be something amazing that makes it worth it. The Nexus angle is a pretty famous example of that, an absolutely shit Raw that ended with an amazing segment. And really while it certainly went off the rails, nothing WWE has done since the Nexus has invested me as thoroughly as that angle did. It's hard to not give them the benefit of the doubt because even at their worst they sometimes are capable of putting on amazing television. Just the problem is they very rarely, especially these days, can be assed to even try. This year on average has been unwatchable misery. This year also had Kofi Kingston ascending to the world title uplifted by his friends, a story I have been slamming on a table begging for for years, and I may have felt like it had a couple steps that weren't necessary, but it was still great. Daniel Bryan even before the Kofi story was killing it as a heel, and the way in the Kofi feud he became everything he once hated was absolutely f***ing beautiful. People don't rag on WWE at its worst because they want to hate it and want the company to collapse; they want it to be good. They want to enjoy it again, because every time we get a glimpse of something amazing from the company, it's feel-good and it's magical. It's why people who don't like it hover around hoping shows pick up, it's why people buy tickets to shows they want to like only to get there and end up booing total trash. The people who don't care anymore are the ones who are already gone. They're the ones who tuned out, found other shit to do, and don't have any interest in coming back because their desire to enjoy and watch wrestling is gone now. WWE being good again is all anyone really wants; NXT's reception for years has been proof of that.
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Post by jivesoulbrah on Oct 24, 2019 9:46:36 GMT -5
Shut up and enjoy it? You don’t tell the audience how they should feel, the audience will tell you how they feel.
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Post by TWERKIN' MAGGLE on Oct 24, 2019 9:59:00 GMT -5
After watching Dynamite... I reiterate. Go f*** yourself Show, you're a moron. Same with NXT. People don't pick apart these shows because they're not awful. Update. I have watched NXT now. It was great. Big Show can continue to f*** right off because he's a moron who is wrong.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Oct 24, 2019 11:38:00 GMT -5
The thing is, with Raw and Smackdown is we can't sit back and enjoy it because it's not entertaining enough and fans know with the talent there it can and should be a much better show. Fans talk about how bad it is because they want better quality and the only way a change happens if fans tell them they don't like it. Sadly however nothing is changing, because we fans have been shown that we don't matter. The paying customer, the people who made the WWE successful in the first place by buying into it and had things that drew us in. No as Vince got older, we don't matter. When we did before, we got the change of the "New Generation" to "Attitude".
WWE now, won't make that true change. They will tell us that this is a new era or that it's not about the fans, but what changes? nothing. The numbers of who watches have dropped massively. The ones that still watch will come and tell us what good or bad. The issue is WWE so call "writers" and Vince have constantly lately taking anything fans started to get behind, and draw interested in and cut them off at the knees. The Fiend becoming the latest thing.
The fact is every face you have kept getting booked to look like a complete tools. Think about the WWE right now, Who is the big star the fans are suppose to be behind? Seth Rollins but unlike your Austin's or Rock. he doesn't ever come off at the guy because he always been looked like a tool. Nothing has emotion like they did when an Austin was around saying what he wanted and not what someone else wrote. That why AEW was so good because the talent are doing what they want, and you can see the difference and when watching you are hooked into it. NXT has that style as well. Because again, NXT doesn't have a bunch of "writers" from Hollywood or whatever writing it. The point is WWE honestly needs to go more old school on how they do things on Raw and Smackdown. Give the fans want they want more of, I get they have a shit ton of money from TV deals and ext but why wouldn't you want also fans to pack out your show every week? And make more off merchandise because they are invested in it again?
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
Posts: 5,732
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Post by nisidhe on Oct 24, 2019 14:10:34 GMT -5
If they're bringing out these guys to speak in WWE's defense, it means that the company is getting some flak from the networks about the ratings losses.
If this is the line they're using to defend WWE, they're not being hurt bad enough to change directions.
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 41,996
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Oct 24, 2019 18:25:45 GMT -5
WWE and it’s wrestlers think the fans are there for them. They do whatever shit they want and we respond the way they want.
WWE is supposed to be there for the fans.
It’s a fundamental difference and they have no idea.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Oct 24, 2019 18:52:36 GMT -5
WWE and it’s wrestlers think the fans are there for them. They do whatever shit they want and we respond the way they want. WWE is supposed to be there for the fans. It’s a fundamental difference and they have no idea. It smacks of back when TNA told their live crowd they were cast members or whatever, which, no.
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Post by evilone on Oct 24, 2019 19:38:14 GMT -5
When your WWE career highlight is this But only because Bossman has carried you trough it figuratively and literately. Bossman was a menacing badass. RIP bro.
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