Spider2024
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by Spider2024 on Oct 28, 2019 12:57:05 GMT -5
Oh yeah, Wonder Woman absolutely caught some shit, in particular I remember people being irritated over the joke in the trailer comparing being a secretary to slavery. It's faded now and it never got quite as vitriolic as Captain Marvel or Star Wars (I still can't even tell what the actual problem with Rey is even supposed to be beyond, "Woman who's overpowered without much explanation," when no one really questions it when that's done with a guy) but it was certainly there. I'm almost surprised Gal Gadot didn't get the torches and pitchforks treatment, as she literally said in an interview "Every woman, every man, everyone should be a feminist. Because whoever is not a feminist is a sexist."At least Gal Gadot thinks it's within the realm of possibility for a man to not be a sexist.
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Post by James Fabiano on Oct 28, 2019 12:58:18 GMT -5
So you're one of the kids who preferred He-Man in 1989, then? ;-) Yeah, I didn't accept GB16 for just being a mediocre, yet another unneeded remake/reboot/sequel/cashgrab. Didn't Feig introduce the idea of "Oh you don't like it cause they're all women" when responding to negative reactions? Which started WW...can't even say WW3 cause I'm sure we had more than a few if you're counting internet conflicts. I never watched He-Man so I couldn't say one way or another. Just never caught my interest as a kid.
Fair enough, that was a reference to a GB2 scene.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Oct 28, 2019 13:03:04 GMT -5
Okay, yeah, I'm astounded she didn't get that reaction, especially since she's completely correct. I'm guessing it flew relatively under the radar, because it's exactly the kind of statement "those" types of people lose their shit over.
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ToyfareMark
Vegeta
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Post by ToyfareMark on Oct 28, 2019 13:36:36 GMT -5
All I wanted was for Tony Stark to be drunk all the time.
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Dr. T is an alien
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Oct 28, 2019 13:53:41 GMT -5
The real problem for me about Rey was that there were no real indications that she should be good at most of the things she is good at. The only things shown in her background that she should be good at are mechanics, fighting with a staff, spelunking, and being a polyglot. Luke being a great pilot is easy to take as they drop hints that he is a good brush pilot (though some of the more obvious examples were in cut scenes). Even Anakin has the excuse to have done some flying as he would have needed to do test flights. Rey, despite being a virtual slave much like Anakin literally was, would never have been allowed near a working ship as she, unlike Anakin who had an explosive in his next that prevented him from leaving Tattooine, could have escaped elsewhere has she access to a working ship. As ever, most of that was crammed into ancillary material released leading up to and around the release of Force Awakens - she's tricked out the AT-AT she was living in with a salvaged Y-Wing flight computer and used the flight simulator to learn how to pilot ships. Probably could've put that in the movie, just a few seconds of her running a flight sim in the dinner scene to drop the hint that she's a good pilot. But yeah, Rey's Survival Guide answers virtually everything addressed by the people who say "We didn't see her train!" because LucasFilm gotta pad out those books and comics (and was released before Force Awakens opened in theatres, so wasn't a response to said critics either). So....the only people who understood why she could do some of those things were people who spent even more money than simply a movie ticket? I really dislike this aspect of Disney's handling of Star Wars. Sure, when Lucas was in charge every side character had a story in the EU. There were comics starring Dengar. The Ithorian in the Mos Eisley cantina had a back story and appears as a side character in some novels. The guy escaping Cloud City carrying an ice cream maker has an adventure story told about his escape. That's all....whatever. It is all side information about background characters who don't actually affect the main story. Having that extra information is fine and may improve the universe in your eyes, but not having that information isn't going to affect the story in the slightest. That's not what Disney is doing, however. You are expected to buy the back story materials in order to follow the main story. Many people are simply not going to do that, and I don't blame them.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 14:06:58 GMT -5
All I wanted was for Tony Stark to be drunk all the time. This reminds me of a "review" I saw of Infinity War complaining about how insulting it was that Shuri was able to solve problems the rest of the Avengers weren't because it's ridiculous that she could possibly be smarter than them.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Oct 28, 2019 15:34:31 GMT -5
Captain Marvel is a bar character regardless.
Wonder Woman was pretty awesome,cant say much about others that I didnt see.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Oct 28, 2019 18:28:27 GMT -5
I just like cool characters and fun stories. Wonder Woman is a badass, as is Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor. Rey is a compelling and likable hero, I thought Captain Marvel was not the best thing ever but still enjoyable, Furiosa and Mad Max Fury Road in general kicked ass.
In kid’s movies and animation, I think characters like Moana, Judy Hopps, the Crystal Gems, the Mane Six, Mrs. Brisby and Chihiro from Spirited Away are awesome. Loved me some Sailor Moon, Sally in Sonic SatAM, etc. I was surrounded by Girl Power growing up, so it’s never really been a big deal for me.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by FinalGwen on Oct 28, 2019 18:52:55 GMT -5
As ever, most of that was crammed into ancillary material released leading up to and around the release of Force Awakens - she's tricked out the AT-AT she was living in with a salvaged Y-Wing flight computer and used the flight simulator to learn how to pilot ships. Probably could've put that in the movie, just a few seconds of her running a flight sim in the dinner scene to drop the hint that she's a good pilot. But yeah, Rey's Survival Guide answers virtually everything addressed by the people who say "We didn't see her train!" because LucasFilm gotta pad out those books and comics (and was released before Force Awakens opened in theatres, so wasn't a response to said critics either). So....the only people who understood why she could do some of those things were people who spent even more money than simply a movie ticket? I really dislike this aspect of Disney's handling of Star Wars. Sure, when Lucas was in charge every side character had a story in the EU. There were comics starring Dengar. The Ithorian in the Mos Eisley cantina had a back story and appears as a side character in some novels. The guy escaping Cloud City carrying an ice cream maker has an adventure story told about his escape. That's all....whatever. It is all side information about background characters who don't actually affect the main story. Having that extra information is fine and may improve the universe in your eyes, but not having that information isn't going to affect the story in the slightest. That's not what Disney is doing, however. You are expected to buy the back story materials in order to follow the main story. Many people are simply not going to do that, and I don't blame them. One of my fave authors once pointed out that Luke being able to fly an X-Wing and destroy the Death Star based on being able to target womp rats is like a farmer saying he can shoot things out of a cropduster and ending up flying with the Dambusters in their final mission. There's no further stretch of the imagination required, it's just that Disney gave the characters more backstory for those who wanted to look. A lot of it was in "Before The Awakening", a short book which cost like... $2-3? So it's not like it's a price barrier thing.
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Dr. T is an alien
Patti Mayonnaise
Knows when to hold them, knows when to fold them
I've been found out!
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Oct 28, 2019 20:56:11 GMT -5
So....the only people who understood why she could do some of those things were people who spent even more money than simply a movie ticket? I really dislike this aspect of Disney's handling of Star Wars. Sure, when Lucas was in charge every side character had a story in the EU. There were comics starring Dengar. The Ithorian in the Mos Eisley cantina had a back story and appears as a side character in some novels. The guy escaping Cloud City carrying an ice cream maker has an adventure story told about his escape. That's all....whatever. It is all side information about background characters who don't actually affect the main story. Having that extra information is fine and may improve the universe in your eyes, but not having that information isn't going to affect the story in the slightest. That's not what Disney is doing, however. You are expected to buy the back story materials in order to follow the main story. Many people are simply not going to do that, and I don't blame them. One of my fave authors once pointed out that Luke being able to fly an X-Wing and destroy the Death Star based on being able to target womp rats is like a farmer saying he can shoot things out of a cropduster and ending up flying with the Dambusters in their final mission. There's no further stretch of the imagination required, it's just that Disney gave the characters more backstory for those who wanted to look. A lot of it was in "Before The Awakening", a short book which cost like... $2-3? So it's not like it's a price barrier thing. It’s not the same. Highlighting Poe’s earlier missions might be interesting but does not affect his status as the resident ace pilot. He’s highly trained so for him to be skilled at anything makes sense. Rey being a good pilot only makes sense if you did your homework, which many won’t do.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by FinalGwen on Oct 28, 2019 22:41:33 GMT -5
One of my fave authors once pointed out that Luke being able to fly an X-Wing and destroy the Death Star based on being able to target womp rats is like a farmer saying he can shoot things out of a cropduster and ending up flying with the Dambusters in their final mission. There's no further stretch of the imagination required, it's just that Disney gave the characters more backstory for those who wanted to look. A lot of it was in "Before The Awakening", a short book which cost like... $2-3? So it's not like it's a price barrier thing. It’s not the same. Highlighting Poe’s earlier missions might be interesting but does not affect his status as the resident ace pilot. He’s highly trained so for him to be skilled at anything makes sense. Rey being a good pilot only makes sense if you did your homework, which many won’t do. I think there's a fairly direct line between two characters that have grown up on a desert planet and we have nothing to suggest they've ever been acquainted with interstellar travel. In both cases, there are blanks to fill in. The radio plays/books established the T-16 has similar controls to an X-Wing, but again, you have to go outside the movie for that, the closest we got in the film was Luke playing with a toy of the T-16. (And even without extra information, you can come up with basic explanations like 'Ok, Rey is a scavenger, there's abandoned broken ships all over, she could have learnt how to pilot to get them back to Unkar Plutt for extra portions of food.' or 'her dream is to get off planet, of course she'd try and learn to pilot a ship'.)
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H-Virus
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Post by H-Virus on Oct 28, 2019 22:43:09 GMT -5
So, legitimate question here: What exactly qualifies a woman for being 'Empowered'? I honestly don't know and I feel like a lot of other people around the web don't know either because they can't seem to agree on who qualifies and who doesn't.
Does it have to be a woman who's strong, smart, successful, takes charge, kicks all the ass and definitely doesn't need help from any man for any reason under any circumstance? That's an impression I sometimes get.
Is it okay for her to be a take-action woman who's capable of doing what men can do but might still make mistakes and need to be rescued if she gets in over her head? Not according to some people.
Can it be a woman in any setting who inspires other women even if she's not as strong or smart or successful as the men? I'd like to think so, but maybe I'm wrong.
If I sound like I'm being facetious, I apologize. But when it comes to empowered women the only thing I know for certain is that if a woman's only role in a story is either "Be the love interest" or "Be sexy", then she doesn't qualify. But even that is a hazy area because there are some people, self-proclaimed feminists among them, who believe a woman can't be either of those things even if she's also doing the strong, independent ass-kicker role alongside it, because it somehow undermines the empowerment.
We've already talked plenty about Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman, so let's look at another female superhero: Helen Parr from The Incredibles. She's a superheroine, and a pretty damn good one. But she's also married to a big, strong, handsome man and spends the first half of the movie being a housewife while he's out with a job and doing his superhero gig in secret, and for a large portion of the movie her biggest conflict is the fear that he might be having an affair. Does she qualify as 'empowered'? Is she more empowered in the second movie where she's the one out doing the superheroing while her husband stays at home taking care of the kids, even though she's still essentially the same woman she was in the first movie?
Or how about this... Who does a better job of embodying 'female empowerment': The old Lara Croft, or the new Lara Croft? Old Lara was a smart, sophisticated, charming, witty, confident ass-kicking adventurer with the body of a centerfold. New Lara is a clever, focused, no-nonsense, industrious, not-as-confident-but-still-ass-kicking survivalist with a more subdued beauty. To me, one doesn't have to be better than the other, but I'm sure plenty of others will have their own opinions.
At any rate, I could write a pretty long list of all the female characters in movies, TV shows, video games and so on that I love, some of whom would probably be considered 'empowered' and plenty of others who probably wouldn't. To me, having a character who's fun, exciting and likable is more important than whether or not she's living up to some ill-defined standard of what a real woman should be or whatever. Same goes for male characters. It would be nice if the Internet wouldn't get so hung up on things like empowerment, sexism, misogyny, misandry, white-knighting, gatekeeping, etc etc when it comes to shows and games, and instead just enjoy them on their own merits. But then again, it would be really nice if the Internet would stop getting so hung up on a lot of things, which isn't likely to happen any time soon.
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Post by King Boo on Oct 28, 2019 23:04:41 GMT -5
I can only speak for me but a woman is empowered when she's doing whatever it is she wants, her way. There's no right or wrong answer to what "it" is, and she can fail at it or she can succeed at it. As long as she's true to who she is - good and bad - and as long as whatever it is she's doing is what she wants to be doing - regardless of what others think, say and do - then she's empowered. Can she physically kick ass? Awesome. Would she rather be more cerebral? Cool. Does she want to be single and childless? Rad. Does she want to stay home with her kids? Terrific. It doesn't matter, as long as it's what she wants to do and has no shame in doing it.
The true empowerment comes in strength of self.
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r.
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Bye
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Post by r. on Oct 28, 2019 23:07:34 GMT -5
These movies usually do in the most ass way possible
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segaz
Samurai Cop
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Post by segaz on Oct 30, 2019 17:43:26 GMT -5
A lot of hate on Terminator Dark Fate for this. I don't really see it myself.
But hey GTA got a lot of hate also when they announced San Andreas back in the day.
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agent817
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Post by agent817 on Oct 30, 2019 18:51:08 GMT -5
A lot of hate on Terminator Dark Fate for this. I don't really see it myself. But hey GTA got a lot of hate also when they announced San Andreas back in the day. Oh my god, I remember that part about San Andreas. It seemed that the racists-in-denial didn't want to accept that they were going to play as a black man, but they tried to mask it by saying that "GTA is about the mafia" and all that stuff and that the gangsta theme doesn't work for it.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Oct 30, 2019 19:11:14 GMT -5
If I had to be honest: people, at least mainstream wise, largely DON'T hate movies that show empowered women.
The recent Star Wars movies, Fury Road, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel or films like Hustlers or Girls Trip gaining a following, and the female supporting heroes in MCU gaining huge followings, it's gradually becoming less of an issue.
IMO, the OP's focusing on a minority of loud people.
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Oct 30, 2019 20:40:50 GMT -5
I love empowered women. My favorite superhero is Storm, and my favorite 80's action hero is Ellen Ripley. Still, I hated the Captain Marvel movie. I thought Brie Larson was channeling Hayden Christensen in Star Wars, and it just felt hokey overall like a long episode of Agents of SHIELD.
Just because I love empowered female characters doesn't mean I'm obligated to support any movie with a female lead.
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nate5054
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Post by nate5054 on Oct 30, 2019 21:12:04 GMT -5
I hated Captain Marcel because it sucked.
I loved T2 because it was great.
Both have empowered women in it. That said, I really don't try to think that deeply about action movies.
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nate5054
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Post by nate5054 on Oct 30, 2019 21:13:33 GMT -5
There sexist tiny weiners can’t Handel it. Hallelujah, what a quip.
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