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Post by HMARK Center on Jun 15, 2020 15:07:37 GMT -5
Personally, in the end I feel like the main issue is that there was never really a need for there to be more than three Star Wars films. I really came to dislike the phrase "Skywalker Saga" because, well...there was never really such an idea in mind. It was made up as everyone went along; Lucas didn't really have a plan until he decided it was time to cash in circa 1997, and Disney clearly had no plan at all. The prequels now get some retroactive praise for at least feeling like they were attempting to be about something and just failing to execute, in this case a story of how a seemingly eternal democracy can quickly devolve into authoritarianism under the right circumstances, but it doesn't change that aside from "there was a Republic, there were Jedi, and Obi Wan and Anakin fought on a lava planet where Anakin got all burned up" there really was nothing else sketched out before Lucas began drafting The Phantom Menace. Disney saw all the money in the world in giving Star Wars fans the style and atmosphere they loved, but they took the three biggest movies and decided there didn't need to be a three-movie narrative in place...after announcing there'd be three movies telling a single story. It's baffling. I won't pretend to know a ton else about how the property has been handled, as I've heard good stuff about their TV show output and comics but found myself kind of feeling "eh" towards Rogue One, but the need to be "STAR WARS, THE BIGGEST FILM FRANCHISE IMAGINABLE" really hurts the creativity that can go into the film side of Star Wars. That all said, there's no getting around that so much of the worst fan anger and what have you has most frequently come from pretty freaking toxic corners of the fandom and internet, in general, for reasons we're all familiar with at this point. The last truly great Star Wars film was made in 1980; if you're still belly aching and screaming and ranting and raving about Kathleen Kennedy or whomever at this point, you just haven't been paying attention. Honestly there are many big series that were probably never really meant to be franchises that have suffered in terms of film to film quality from the need to have cinematic universes. If we never got any additional films after the first two Alien and Terminator movies, would we really be that much worse off? What kills so many of them is the need to match the epic scale (or at least the epic feeling) that the original films capture, while ignoring that series like Star Wars, Terminator, and many others are products of their cultural time and place. You just can't replicate that, it never fully works. It's why I'd be down for films with smaller budgets that focus on somewhat more esoteric material within a given fictional universe. At that point, the pressure isn't there to try and match the melodrama of the original Star Wars trilogy, the action and the at-the-time cutting edge effects of T2, etc. Just tell a different story set in that universe, don't try and play the "HEY, D'YA REMEMBER THIS?!?" game and then try and say you're going to do it bigger and better than before.
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adamclark52
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Post by adamclark52 on Jun 15, 2020 15:22:17 GMT -5
It’s astounding really. And we live in a world now where, whether ironically or not, the prequels are looked on more favorably than the rollercoaster coming off the tracks that was the sequel trilogy. I completely admit I swallowed the Disney pill. I thought it was better off without Lucas (still arguable) and was enamored with TFA but..well. Yeah. And what’s crazy is that a lot of people called it. Like amazingly accurately. And a lot of those voices were equally shot down as well. For the most part the hate for both the prequels and the sequels is massively overblown, and I say that as someone who has very little love for the prequels. And Star Wars is definitely better off without Lucas. That I do agree with. Although if he still had the rights maybe he would have stuck to his guns of just not making more movies, and that would’ve been fine too. But if you read his ideas for Episodes VII-IX, hoo-boy.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Jun 15, 2020 15:39:21 GMT -5
For the most part the hate for both the prequels and the sequels is massively overblown, and I say that as someone who has very little love for the prequels. And Star Wars is definitely better off without Lucas. That I do agree with. Although if he still had the rights maybe he would have stuck to his guns of just not making more movies, and that would’ve been fine too. But if you read his ideas for Episodes VII-IX, hoo-boy. I think its safe to say that if the George Lucas Sequel Trilogy was made there's be a very good chance that Star Wars would be dead... or at least in critical condition. They'd be the perfect representation of a once-groundbreaking artist disappearing up his own ass.
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adamclark52
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Post by adamclark52 on Jun 15, 2020 15:42:17 GMT -5
That I do agree with. Although if he still had the rights maybe he would have stuck to his guns of just not making more movies, and that would’ve been fine too. But if you read his ideas for Episodes VII-IX, hoo-boy. I think its safe to say that if the George Lucas Sequel Trilogy was made there's be a very good chance that Star Wars would be dead... or at least in critical condition. They'd be the perfect representation of a once-groundbreaking artist disappearing up his own ass. Which is maybe why we should be commending him for being smart enough just to not even bother.
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Post by Cyno on Jun 15, 2020 15:46:00 GMT -5
Yeah, as iffy as I am about the sequels, I'd still take all three of them over Episodes I and II. Hell, if anything I like The Last Jedi a lot more now than I did when I first saw it. And George's ideas for a sequel trilogy somehow sounded even worse than those.
Star Wars is at its best when it's George Lucas-adjacent rather than him having complete control. I don't think it's any coincidence that the most lauded film in the entire franchise had other people directing and writing it than George.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jun 15, 2020 16:13:46 GMT -5
Yeah, as iffy as I am about the sequels, I'd still take all three of them over Episodes I and II. Hell, if anything I like The Last Jedi a lot more now than I did when I first saw it. And George's ideas for a sequel trilogy somehow sounded even worse than those.
Star Wars is at its best when it's George Lucas-adjacent rather than him having complete control. I don't think it's any coincidence that the most lauded film in the entire franchise had other people directing and writing it than George.
It's kind of funny, I was pretty down on Last Jedi when I first saw it mostly because I finished it thinking "Wait...isn't this supposed to be a trilogy?", and it led to me not being interested in seeing Episode 9. But now that I'm not really concerned about them telling a cohesive three movie story anymore, I go back and look at Last Jedi and go "Oh, this was the only movie in the sequel trilogy to genuinely try something new and interesting, that's cool". As said before, it works better as a standalone film, but it disappointed me when I went into it expecting a full second chapter of a three movie arc. ...That said, I still dislike its ending a lot. Not the kid with the broom and Luke as a renewed symbol of hope, that was fine, but the whole "Oh, don't worry, we'll be fine even though the entire rebellion is pretty much dead now, and we still have the ancient Jedi texts" after spending the whole damn movie challenging us to move on from the past, challenge the simplistic light vs. dark dichotomy, and to feel like there's supposed to be stakes to this story. Just felt like they got to the movie's third act and Disney told Johnson "Ok, we gave you enough room to play around with, get this story back to where everything's comfortable and familiar, now." But yeah, especially hearing the way they went for episode 9...I still haven't watched it, I admit, but even just reading its plot synopsis gives me a headache. Really not sure who that was supposed to please or appeal to.
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adamclark52
El Dandy
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Post by adamclark52 on Jun 15, 2020 16:23:08 GMT -5
at least I can laugh about it now
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Jun 15, 2020 18:34:01 GMT -5
I think its safe to say that if the George Lucas Sequel Trilogy was made there's be a very good chance that Star Wars would be dead... or at least in critical condition. They'd be the perfect representation of a once-groundbreaking artist disappearing up his own ass. Which is maybe why we should be commending him for being smart enough just to not even bother. I absolutely give George props for selling it. He knew when to cash out.
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adamclark52
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Post by adamclark52 on Jun 15, 2020 19:09:26 GMT -5
Which is maybe why we should be commending him for being smart enough just to not even bother. I absolutely give George props for selling it. He knew when to cash out. I still can't believe he sold it for a paultry three billion I'm sure everyone who posts in this thread could have pooled together and convinced our banks to loan us that much. especially for Star Wars
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jun 15, 2020 20:12:17 GMT -5
I've said it before, but your level of affection for whichever set of movies is STRONGLY influenced by the first ones you saw as a kid. A co-worker of mine is in his 20s and the prequels are his favorites cuz those are his movies.
10-15 years from now, someone in their 20s will cite the sequels as their favorites cuz they were 6 or whatever when they saw them. Despite there obviously not being a clear plan for the latest trilogy from the jump (there wasn't for the originals either), some kid out there right now loves them&those will be his/her movies.
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Jun 15, 2020 21:54:34 GMT -5
Yeah, as iffy as I am about the sequels, I'd still take all three of them over Episodes I and II. Hell, if anything I like The Last Jedi a lot more now than I did when I first saw it. And George's ideas for a sequel trilogy somehow sounded even worse than those.
Star Wars is at its best when it's George Lucas-adjacent rather than him having complete control. I don't think it's any coincidence that the most lauded film in the entire franchise had other people directing and writing it than George.
Honestly, Lucas is a technically capable director who can, but usually does not, do a good job as a director. What Lucas actually excels at, and what he always should have stuck to, is producing. Those technical skills allowed him to provide the proper support to revolutionize so many aspects of how we enjoy the media altogether. You might think I am merely talking about ILM, but his contributions to film go well beyond that. He was involved in developing new filming equipment and techniques. He developed new sound equipment that all movie theaters that wanted to show his films had to upgrade to, which if you were not alive for the time you might not appreciate just how much of a difference that made in sound quality at the theater. Hell, he was even involved in Pixar's creation. That does not even begin to touch on how he change marketing and merchandising forever. What about Star Wars after the OT? The Special Editions were hit or miss, but some of the changes made sense (and also ensured that Lucas wound up owning Episode 4 as Fox owned the original theatrical release but their contract with Lucas gave him intellectual property rights over everything else Star Wars, which ultimately included any edits). What about the prequels? To be honest, I don't think the prequels were as bad as people made them out to be. They did, however, sorely missed the editing services of his ex-wife that the original trilogy had at their disposal. There is the rub, to be honest. Lucas needs some sort of filter. The Clone Wars cartoon basically kept to the same themes and Lucas was very involved in that series too, but Dave Filoni was his filter then. I think that worked out damned well. In fact, most things Dave is associated with goes pretty well. I wish he had been more involved in the sequels. They could have used a filter as well.
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Welfare Willis
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Post by Welfare Willis on Jun 15, 2020 22:38:42 GMT -5
Which is maybe why we should be commending him for being smart enough just to not even bother. I absolutely give George props for selling it. He knew when to cash out. Yeah, but honest I get the feeling that Star Wars was becoming an albatross around his neck then knowing when to sell. I mean fans were blaming him for ruining their childhood and such. I mean changing the originals and refusing to release the non-special editions didn't help things, but that sort of criticism has got to affect you even if your sitting on a huge pile of cash.
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Post by Cyno on Jun 15, 2020 23:04:18 GMT -5
Yeah, as iffy as I am about the sequels, I'd still take all three of them over Episodes I and II. Hell, if anything I like The Last Jedi a lot more now than I did when I first saw it. And George's ideas for a sequel trilogy somehow sounded even worse than those.
Star Wars is at its best when it's George Lucas-adjacent rather than him having complete control. I don't think it's any coincidence that the most lauded film in the entire franchise had other people directing and writing it than George.
Honestly, Lucas is a technically capable director who can, but usually does not, do a good job as a director. What Lucas actually excels at, and what he always should have stuck to, is producing. Those technical skills allowed him to provide the proper support to revolutionize so many aspects of how we enjoy the media altogether. You might think I am merely talking about ILM, but his contributions to film go well beyond that. He was involved in developing new filming equipment and techniques. He developed new sound equipment that all movie theaters that wanted to show his films had to upgrade to, which if you were not alive for the time you might not appreciate just how much of a difference that made in sound quality at the theater. Hell, he was even involved in Pixar's creation. That does not even begin to touch on how he change marketing and merchandising forever. What about Star Wars after the OT? The Special Editions were hit or miss, but some of the changes made sense (and also ensured that Lucas wound up owning Episode 4 as Fox owned the original theatrical release but their contract with Lucas gave him intellectual property rights over everything else Star Wars, which ultimately included any edits). What about the prequels? To be honest, I don't think the prequels were as bad as people made them out to be. They did, however, sorely missed the editing services of his ex-wife that the original trilogy had at their disposal. There is the rub, to be honest. Lucas needs some sort of filter. The Clone Wars cartoon basically kept to the same themes and Lucas was very involved in that series too, but Dave Filoni was his filter then. I think that worked out damned well. In fact, most things Dave is associated with goes pretty well. I wish he had been more involved in the sequels. They could have used a filter as well. I think Lucas is good at sort of the abstract big picture when it comes to creative vision. Where he loses it is filling in the details.
But yeah, you're absolutely right about production. Lucas is one of the great innovators in VFX. Not just ILM, but the development of various audio stuff like what Skywalker Sound used as well as THX (named after his THX-1138). He was also one of the first, if not THE first, big name in Hollywood to embrace computers and video games as a creative format. This started with LucasFilm Computer Division, which eventually led to the creation of LucasArts and Pixar.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2020 23:14:31 GMT -5
I only recently saw Rise of Skywalker and I have to say it wasn't just one of the worst Star Wars movies I've ever seen , it was one of the worst movies I've ever seen that wasn't like, An Asylum film or Z-grade schlock. And I was a defender of Last Jedi. This movie was just shit in about every category I can think of.
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Welfare Willis
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Post by Welfare Willis on Jun 16, 2020 8:54:46 GMT -5
I only recently saw Rise of Skywalker and I have to say it wasn't just one of the worst Star Wars movies I've ever seen , it was one of the worst movies I've ever seen that wasn't like, An Asylum film or Z-grade schlock. And I was a defender of Last Jedi. This movie was just shit in about every category I can think of. Yeah, I didn't like the Last Jedi, but I can at least respect that Rian Johnson made choices with his film: the idea of breaking from the past to try and chart a new course. The problem with that being it's the middle film in a trilogy. The Rise of Skywalker feels so full of course correction, fan service, and studio meddling. When Rey shot lighting from her hands and destroyed that transport I actually laughed out loud. I had a friend actually sink into her chair out of embrassment for this film.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Jun 16, 2020 9:31:15 GMT -5
Yeah, I didn't like the Last Jedi, but I can at least respect that Rian Johnson made choices with his film: the idea of breaking from the past to try and chart a new course. The problem with that being it's the middle film in a trilogy. The Rise of Skywalker feels so full of course correction, fan service, and studio meddling. When Rey shot lighting from her hands and destroyed that transport I actually laughed out loud. I had a friend actually sink into her chair out of embrassment for this film. It's blatantly obvious LucasFilm panicked over the mixed reception TLJ got and tried their hardest to - in their minds - win back the fans who hated it. The trouble is, the majority of the fans who hated TLJ also didn't care for TFA. They were never on board with the direction of the sequels in the first place, so trying to appease them served to do little more than alienate many of those who enjoyed the first two movies, to the tune of a $300 million drop in box office between the second and third movies. As I said earlier, Trevorrow's script looks far better in comparison because it at least comes across as an actual sequel to the first two instalments of the trilogy. It would've still suffered by virtue of being written and directed by Trevorrow, who just isn't terribly good, but it sure beats the wet fart J.J. gave us.
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Jun 16, 2020 10:48:28 GMT -5
I’m just glad The Mandalorian exists, and hope future films are more of that quality rather than of the sequel trilogy.
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Jun 16, 2020 12:58:12 GMT -5
I only recently saw Rise of Skywalker and I have to say it wasn't just one of the worst Star Wars movies I've ever seen , it was one of the worst movies I've ever seen that wasn't like, An Asylum film or Z-grade schlock. And I was a defender of Last Jedi. This movie was just shit in about every category I can think of. For real. I finally watched it on Disney + on May 4th and jesus h. Christ. It’s the kind of bad..that left me apathetic lol. Like, I have no intention or desire to ever watch that shit again. Painfully shallow, stupid and dumb. It actually occurred to me while watching it that I have a tendency to not watch films with my mind but rather with my heart yet throughout the film I kept wondering “..wait, but what about..?” “Shouldn’t that be..” “..is that an error?” “WUT?!?”. The movie is so painfully stupid you can’t help but to try and make sense of it with your head. Like, TLJ pisses me off to an extent but I was just watching it on TV last night. I’ll watch parts of BVS if it’s showing on TV. But this shit? I’m just blown away by how amateur it comes across. Rushed. Video game like. And just stupid.
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Post by Cyno on Jun 16, 2020 14:06:42 GMT -5
Yeah, I didn't like the Last Jedi, but I can at least respect that Rian Johnson made choices with his film: the idea of breaking from the past to try and chart a new course. The problem with that being it's the middle film in a trilogy. The Rise of Skywalker feels so full of course correction, fan service, and studio meddling. When Rey shot lighting from her hands and destroyed that transport I actually laughed out loud. I had a friend actually sink into her chair out of embrassment for this film. It's blatantly obvious LucasFilm panicked over the mixed reception TLJ got and tried their hardest to - in their minds - win back the fans who hated it. The trouble is, the majority of the fans who hated TLJ also didn't care for TFA. They were never on board with the direction of the sequels in the first place, so trying to appease them served to do little more than alienate many of those who enjoyed the first two movies, to the tune of a $300 million drop in box office between the second and third movies. As I said earlier, Trevorrow's script looks far better in comparison because it at least comes across as an actual sequel to the first two instalments of the trilogy. It would've still suffered by virtue of being written and directed by Trevorrow, who just isn't terribly good, but it sure beats the wet fart J.J. gave us. Terrio vs. Trevorrow: whoever wins, we lose.
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BRV
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Post by BRV on Jun 16, 2020 14:57:53 GMT -5
While "The Rise of Skywalker" felt like a "Star Wars" film created by committee, "The Last Jedi" felt more like one single person's really, really terrible idea.
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