adamclark52
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Post by adamclark52 on Nov 4, 2020 15:14:36 GMT -5
I'm really glad you said these two lines. I'm in agreement with both. If the Last Jedi was a stand alone non-trilogy movie that basically was showing the state of that galaxy at the time, it could have worked.The First Order being the overall power, finding and destroying the HQ of the Resistance, with the Resistance barely surviving but finding their "new hope". The "basics" of the movie works well. In fact after saying that, I think the overall story of TLJ could have worked better if it was flipped with TFA. Basically "Trilogy opens with the New Empire hunting down the end of the Resistance. Luke Skywalker makes his final stand. The Resistance gets a spark of Hope and they eventually take down Starkiller Base. With their main weapon destroyed, the Empire goes to it's last ditch effort of Palpatine's Final Order. The end." But the movie has so many problems that trying to morph it into a stand alone movie would be redoing the majority of the movie. It would take a "SNYDER CUT TIMES TWO" to save TLJ. I swear there was a point during TLJ's pre-production where it wasn't definitive that it would only be a trilogy. The initial idea of each film being "given" to a different filmmaker (with few huge ties to the previous chapter - which was a big reason why Treverrow was booted) seems to imply that they wanted a string of movies that would have to expand beyond the 3-part story model. However we Star Wars fans hear "new Star Wars movies!" and we immediately think "trilogy" and I guess the fix was in as to how the fanbase would react to a string of (essentially) open-ended movies about these new kids. In the end, they bring JJ back to do essentially what Treverrow was doing & fired for: connect back to TFA and end the story. I’m pretty sure I read about and it was intended on being a trilogy from day one
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Post by ThereIsNoAbsurdistOnlyZuul on Nov 4, 2020 15:35:50 GMT -5
Thinking back, I think another reason I've come to at least appreciate what Last Jedi was trying to do a lot more is how that movie at least felt like it was speaking to what I personally saw as Force Awakens' biggest problem: that I was just so sick of the "Rebels vs. Empire" story and wanted Star Wars to try something different. Again, it's also why Last Jedi's ending bugged me; the whole film builds up that Star Wars needs to evolve and change if it's going to continue and thrive as a film franchise 40+ years after its debut, yet the film ends on "It's still light vs. dark, rebels vs. empire", and then Rise of Skywalker goes so far as to resurrect freaking Palpatine. To bring something back from before, that's probably why I appreciated Red Letter Media's episode of Half in the Bag about these movies more than their Plinkett reviews, which have just gotten insanely nitpicky and pandering to certain bitter sectors of their audience: the Half in the Bag episodes basically revolved around them feeling upset that "Star Wars really has no more stories to tell", and that's the feeling I had from seeing the same conflict presented as the one we got way back in the day, just done over again. Again, Lucas at least tried something different with the prequels...he just did it horribly. I also do kind of wonder about the age range I'm in for each trilogy. I first saw the originals as a 10 year old, back in 1995, and the prequels began soon after that, so I was still kinda in the right age range for it? Then again, Episodes 2 and 3 came out when I in high school and college, respectively, so maybe I was too out of the mindset that a lot of younger people currently have now, where they like the prequels unironically since they "grew up with them". I lean into Freddie Prinze Jr.'s rant regarding this, "These are broad archetypes, with a back and forth narrative flow." This also means there is a sweet spot for you as an audience member to relate. It's like you said with missing the Prequel's boat, or trying to watch Goonies for the first time when you're like 35. Within that framework you can expand on that, as that is generally all storytelling, especially when it adheres to the heroes journey. But, and there is always a but: TFA had a strong suit, it was more, more worlds, more galaxy. You can follow a small thread from that, expand in the Last Jedi, and then continue with that. Marvel hit upon an idea with the Ant-Man movies, and Winter Soldier: Yeah these are x genre, but we can do additional genres. And Star Wars has the, pun intended, space to do that. Rogue 1, despite it's flaws, allowed for that, following that suit even with Solo was a good idea. Which led to the western that is the Mandalorian.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Nov 4, 2020 15:40:20 GMT -5
I’m pretty sure I read about and it was intended on being a trilogy from day one It was, and certain aspects of the trilogy were set in motion long before work began on them. Rey being the protagonist and Luke being a bitter recluse hiding away on an island after the deaths of his students were part of Lucas' story during the brief time in 2010/2011 when he was considering making Episode VII himself, Palpatine returning was in the notes of Abrams and Kasdan's Force Awakens brainstorming, as was Rey's true lineage. I still maintain that, while not good, Trevorrow's version of Episode IX would've been better than what we got, and tied the trilogy together. As it is, Rise of Skywalker almost feels like it belongs in a different trilogy altogether.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2020 15:59:36 GMT -5
Since this thread got revived, I'm just gonna' say it: I not only really liked Rise of Skywalker, the pacing was a big reason why I enjoyed it as much as I did.
Now I'll readily admit that the film does not cohere very well when coming directly from Last Jedi, which is a problem with the sequel trilogy as a whole. But my god was it refreshing to see a 2 and a half hour film and not have it remotely feel like it was 2 and a half hours. Compare it to Endgame. I loved Endgame, as did pretty much everyone, but when watching Endgame I felt those 3 hours. I was drained by the end and knew I probably wouldn't watch it again any time soon. I didn't at all have that problem with RoS - it moves so briskly that it feels way more rewatchable to me. Saw it twice in theaters which I haven't done with a movie since Dark Knight.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Nov 4, 2020 16:08:40 GMT -5
But my god was it refreshing to see a 2 and a half hour film and not have it remotely feel like it was 2 and a half hours. Compare it to Endgame. I loved Endgame, as did pretty much everyone, but when watching Endgame I felt those 3 hours. I was drained by the end and knew I probably wouldn't watch it again any time soon. I didn't at all have that problem with RoS - it moves so briskly that it feels way more rewatchable to me. Saw it twice in theaters which I haven't done with a movie since Dark Knight. That's weird, because I have the exact opposite experience. I feel every minute of Rise of Skywalker, while Endgame doesn't even feel close to three hours.
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adamclark52
El Dandy
I'm one with the Force; the Force is with me
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Post by adamclark52 on Nov 4, 2020 16:23:08 GMT -5
But my god was it refreshing to see a 2 and a half hour film and not have it remotely feel like it was 2 and a half hours. Compare it to Endgame. I loved Endgame, as did pretty much everyone, but when watching Endgame I felt those 3 hours. I was drained by the end and knew I probably wouldn't watch it again any time soon. I didn't at all have that problem with RoS - it moves so briskly that it feels way more rewatchable to me. Saw it twice in theaters which I haven't done with a movie since Dark Knight. That's weird, because I have the exact opposite experience. I feel every minute of Rise of Skywalker, while Endgame doesn't even feel close to three hours. My god did it drag when we watched it the other day
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2020 16:25:53 GMT -5
That's weird, because I have the exact opposite experience. I feel every minute of Rise of Skywalker, while Endgame doesn't even feel close to three hours. Huh, weird how that works.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Nov 4, 2020 16:33:59 GMT -5
That's weird, because I have the exact opposite experience. I feel every minute of Rise of Skywalker, while Endgame doesn't even feel close to three hours. Huh, weird how that works. I can certainly see how it rattles along for you. There's a lot of story crammed in - probably enough for two movies - and nothing is given time to breathe. For me, though, it all feels painfully shallow and predictable. I watched it with my mom earlier in the year and I found myself clock watching several times. As invested as I was in the characters in the first two movies, I didn't feel much of anything towards them in the third, Luke and Lando notwithstanding.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2020 16:40:35 GMT -5
I can certainly see how it rattles along for you. There's a lot of story crammed in - probably enough for two movies - and nothing is given time to breathe. For me, though, it all feels painfully shallow and predictable. I watched it with my mom earlier in the year and I found myself clock watching several times. As invested as I was in the characters in the first two movies, I didn't feel much of anything towards them in the third, Luke and Lando notwithstanding. Oh there's absolutely a ton of story crammed in there with pretty much no downtime, but I think that's the sorta' deal where it'll work for some people and not for others. One person's "brisk pace" is another's "this is moving way too goddamn quick" - even had that disagreement among the friends I saw it with. As for shallow and predictable, to each their own. I found it on-par with the prior two sequel trilogy movies, though obviously less (relatively) subversive than Last Jedi. Though the fact that I even enjoyed Last Jedi as much as I did probably makes me a statistical outlier.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Nov 4, 2020 17:07:16 GMT -5
As for shallow and predictable, to each their own. I found it on-par with the prior two sequel trilogy movies, though obviously less (relatively) subversive than Last Jedi. Though the fact that I even enjoyed Last Jedi as much as I did probably makes me a statistical outlier. Well, by shallow I mean that there's absolutely no character development for anybody besides Rey and Ben, something Oscar Isaac and John Boyega have had no problem taking Abrams, LucasFilm, and Disney to task for. Lambasted by salty fans as Last Jedi was, at least everybody has an arc in that movie and comes out of it as a more whole character than they did going into it.
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Post by Hit Girl on Nov 4, 2020 17:13:14 GMT -5
Last Jedi is terrible. It basically killed any potential this trilogy had to be good, and it was already in shaky ground before Rian Johnson gave it the killer blow.
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Welfare Willis
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Post by Welfare Willis on Nov 4, 2020 17:34:32 GMT -5
Last Jedi is terrible. It basically killed any potential this trilogy had to be good, and it was already in shaky ground before Rian Johnson gave it the killer blow. Yeah, in some ways I see what Rian Johnson was trying to do. The problem was you don't do the "reject the past" message in the middle film of a trilogy. The Disney sequels just exposed Disney never had a solid plan for all three films, and JJ Abrams as a man who uses nostaglia as a cudgel for story. ... and bringing Palatine back? Lame.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Nov 4, 2020 17:48:54 GMT -5
As for shallow and predictable, to each their own. I found it on-par with the prior two sequel trilogy movies, though obviously less (relatively) subversive than Last Jedi. Though the fact that I even enjoyed Last Jedi as much as I did probably makes me a statistical outlier. Well, by shallow I mean that there's absolutely no character development for anybody besides Rey and Ben, something Oscar Isaac and John Boyega have had no problem taking Abrams, LucasFilm, and Disney to task for. Lambasted by salty fans as Last Jedi was, at least everybody has an arc in that movie and comes out of it as a more whole character than they did going into it. Pretty sure Boyega complained about how his character was treated in Last Jedi too, and stated that he doesn't blame Abrams for Rise of Skywalker as he was trying to a patch job on the story... I very well could be misremembering.
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Post by Hit Girl on Nov 4, 2020 18:08:11 GMT -5
They made a mistake trying to follow the OT when the story had already been completed.
This is what I would have done instead...
They should have saved Finn and Poe for their own movie or series of movies, set perhaps during the OT where a rebel pilot befriends a stormtrooper who refuses to carry out his orders. I'd have had John Boyega as the cool and charismatic pilot Finn and Oscar Isaac as the tough guy stormtrooper Poe who joins the rebellion. They could fight together during the battles of Hoth, Endor etc....and also have their own adventures. It would have allowed Lucasfilm to do something different while still keeping within familar SW elements. Additional characters would have fit in better with this format. BB8 could have been Finn's droid. Rose could have been a love interest. Phasma would be a stormtrooper commander who felt personally insulted at Poe's face turn and develops an obsession with correcting the "defective" trooper. Hux could have been the big bad, a regional governor with a localised agenda. Even characters like Holdo could have been reframed as a rebel leader who is skeptical at first about Poe's intentions.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Nov 4, 2020 19:01:54 GMT -5
Well, by shallow I mean that there's absolutely no character development for anybody besides Rey and Ben, something Oscar Isaac and John Boyega have had no problem taking Abrams, LucasFilm, and Disney to task for. Lambasted by salty fans as Last Jedi was, at least everybody has an arc in that movie and comes out of it as a more whole character than they did going into it. Pretty sure Boyega complained about how his character was treated in Last Jedi too, and stated that he doesn't blame Abrams for Rise of Skywalker as he was trying to a patch job on the story... I very well could be misremembering. Boyega's been pretty critical of Finn's treatment since Last Jedi onwards and cut Abrams some slack, yeah; it was Oscar Isaac who was a little less accommodating towards J.J.'s handling of the third movie.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Nov 4, 2020 19:28:08 GMT -5
Pretty sure Boyega complained about how his character was treated in Last Jedi too, and stated that he doesn't blame Abrams for Rise of Skywalker as he was trying to a patch job on the story... I very well could be misremembering. Boyega's been pretty critical of Finn's treatment since Last Jedi onwards and cut Abrams some slack, yeah; it was Oscar Isaac who was a little less accommodating towards J.J.'s handling of the third movie. I'm not surprised that Oscar Isaac didn't have a lot to do in Abrams third movie... since... well in the original notes he was a minor character that died pretty much immediately in Force Awakens. Should he have done more with him? Absolutely... but Abrams was called back in on the zero hour to rush a patch job on the trilogy where almost none of his ideas were used in the second movie, so I doubt he had exactly the right frame of mind for decent creative writing... The big issue is still again that Disney didn't have a story set for the three pictures. Not even a bullet point of lists of... we need A to get to B so X and Y can happen later... they just gave three movies to three different people and said hey make a trilogy happen. They needed someone that was the man in charge of the story... so they knew where they wanted it to go... since so many things were dropped from movie to movie... I mean Force Awakens had more than a few hints at Finn being force sensitive as well... which just vanishes.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 4, 2020 19:45:54 GMT -5
Last Jedi is terrible. It basically killed any potential this trilogy had to be good, and it was already in shaky ground before Rian Johnson gave it the killer blow. Yeah, in some ways I see what Rian Johnson was trying to do. The problem was you don't do the "reject the past" message in the middle film of a trilogy. The Disney sequels just exposed Disney never had a solid plan for all three films, and JJ Abrams as a man who uses nostaglia as a cudgel for story. Frankly, I would've liked TLJ more if it committed to the "reject the past" message more. My complaint at the end of it was how it felt like it retreated back to the safe and comfortable within a Star Wars narrative after teasing that it'd go in new and unexpected directions, as if the studio had swept in and said "you're going too far, pull back!" Doing that would have at least left a dramatic hook to get me interested in a third film, since we'd leave the second film realizing that the old rules might not apply anymore...but nope, in the end things just felt like they were back at square one.
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adamclark52
El Dandy
I'm one with the Force; the Force is with me
Posts: 8,139
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Post by adamclark52 on Nov 4, 2020 20:23:01 GMT -5
We still don’t know what Finn forgot to tell Rey
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Nov 4, 2020 21:58:35 GMT -5
Yeah, in some ways I see what Rian Johnson was trying to do. The problem was you don't do the "reject the past" message in the middle film of a trilogy. The Disney sequels just exposed Disney never had a solid plan for all three films, and JJ Abrams as a man who uses nostaglia as a cudgel for story. Frankly, I would've liked TLJ more if it committed to the "reject the past" message more. My complaint at the end of it was how it felt like it retreated back to the safe and comfortable within a Star Wars narrative after teasing that it'd go in new and unexpected directions, as if the studio had swept in and said "you're going too far, pull back!" "I can hold it!" *crashes into the Death Star*
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Nov 5, 2020 3:46:53 GMT -5
I always think of this trilogy as the beginning, middle and end of seperate trilogy ideas welded together.
Its an incoherent mess. That gave us the worst ever Star Wars scene-- Poe's prank call.
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