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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Dec 4, 2020 8:37:01 GMT -5
Sadly for the WWE, all the money in the world can't buy them out of creative stagnation. Proven creative writers don't want to work in the WWE environment given the non union environment and the legendarily poor treatment they're subject to, and even if they did, their work would be mixed by Vince on the day of the event. Only proven talent get input on their characters, but the only real way to get proven is to have chosen one status like reigns, et al. If you have suggestions and Vince doesn't like you, the idea will be ignored or given to someone else... You can't generate buzz in that environment.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2020 9:33:52 GMT -5
To answer your question; yes, we will have to wait until the old man kicks off.
It's his product and as long as he's around, he's doing things his way. Stubborn people can be invaluable if their ideas work, but most of the time they are inept at their job, which is why stubbornness is a bad trait.
Not saying the next in line are going to be much better, especially Stephanie, but change us necessary. Unfortunately, it's a matter of when not if.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2020 9:35:06 GMT -5
I'm really digging Drew and Roman as the top guys (which would be shocking if I told myself that even like a year ago), I'd love if Raw/SD top to bottom felt as fun as their stuff does. Roman is amazing but I f***ing HATE Drew being invincible and destroying everything he sees. Got no idea why but that really pisses me off with a champion.
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mistery
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Post by mistery on Dec 4, 2020 9:50:42 GMT -5
To answer your question; yes, we will have to wait until the old man kicks off. It's his product and as long as he's around, he's doing things his way. Stubborn people can be invaluable if their ideas work, but most of the time they are inept at their job, which is why stubbornness is a bad trait. Not saying the next in line are going to be much better, especially Stephanie, but change us necessary. Unfortunately, it's a matter of when not if. Honestly, Stephanie isn't that bad from what I've seen and read (and while I'm obviously biased here, I've met her before outside of a corporate environment). Most people seem to have a problem with Vince, but rarely with Stephanie or Triple H. Plus if I recall, Stephanie hasn't had a hand in creative in a long time, and has no desire to get involved with it again. She is busy on the marketing and branding side of things. Which is generally doing very well. She probably isn't a good person in real life, but she's a hell of a businesswoman. Plus it was also reported that Stephanie and Triple H were the primary people working out the deal with FOX. Vince just coasted along. And with Smackdown doing very well in the ratings every week (it may not be pulling in 3 million viewers every week, but it's a very stable base), especially opposed to what used to run on FOX (both ratings and demo wise, WWE has been FOX's biggest Friday night TV show in a long time), it's hard to imagine FOX is unhappy considering how cheap it is to broadcast WWE TV. But the problem is still Vince. Or possibly the people around him. Keep in mind he is surrounded entirely by yes-men like Kevin Dunn and Bruce Pritchard, who will do whatever he pleases with literally zero pushback or even attempting to change his mind.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2020 9:54:29 GMT -5
Its a combination of factors. WWE constantly blundering PR wise is one of the biggest problems, so people aren't willing to cut them much slack. Likewise the booking (at least on the main roster) is a problem. It has been stated many times in the past that Vince doesn't want anyone becoming a big star because he is afraid of getting burned like he supposedly did with The Rock. And that is not even talking about the COVID or union stuff (although the anti-union stuff is a problem for pro wrestling in general, not just WWE). The lack of excitement is probably due to that. On the flipside of things, I do think AEW gets a bit too much slack at times. If WWE pulled the same finish AEW did last night for a title match several months in the making, people would be flipping their lid. Plus for all the hell we give WWE for their bad PR, AEW is just as bad, if not worse with them letting their executives (incl Tony) go off on random fans on twitter, along with Tony's constant problems of overhyping and failing to deliver. Its why AEW needs to hire an actual PR firm. Can you imagine how many people would flip out if Stephanie, Vince, or Triple H spent their day lashing out at fans on social media? I think people are guilty of giving AEW the benefit of the doubt simply because it's the new and trendy thing, and even this board has shown it. Granted, I've complained an awful lot about the company, so my take means nothing and is going to be dismissed as sour grapes, yet I have noticed that, for years, when WWE had a crappy women's division, folks were demanding they give them more airtime or hire better talent (which Stephanie McMahon would later, and falsely, take credit for); meanwhile, AEW has a crappy women's division, but people keep saying "yeah, it's not good right now, but they're going through an awful lot, give them a chance, it takes time", and so on. Not every bad decision AEW does is defended, but they have gotten a lot of clemency from a community in general that would be quick to mock WWE or Impact Wrestling if they made the same mistake. As for nobody becoming a big star, I genuinely believe that is one of the main reasons why WWE feels so hollow. Back in the day, long before I started watching, if you went to a show, you went so you could see big names. Vince was afraid of folks getting so big they didn't need the business, and wanted to make it so it was the company that folks would see. The thing is... you'd have to live in some strange, dystopic world in order for that to be effective. Certain individuals help move the needle and sell tickets and move merchandise, so by shifting focus away from those folks (which from the mid 2000s to the late 2010s was exclusively John Cena and, for a period, Roman Reigns) instead opting to brand the company as the star, you were opting for a more soulless, bland option. For decades, wrestling events marketed towards attractions, then all of a sudden, the guy who changed everything (for the worse, in the grand scheme) decides that can no longer be done out of fears they get so big they don't need wrestling anymore, and assumes folks will go see the letters on the marquee anyway. Well... that worked. Albeit at a cost; fewer and fewer customers showed up every year to his events and watched his TV shows. Sure, he's at his most profitable, but time will tell if there is a crash soon.
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Post by 'Foretold' Joker on Dec 4, 2020 10:32:47 GMT -5
The difference is the midcard and below gets attention and storylines elsewhere. In WWE the midcard and anyone else below that are jobbed out, given nothing to do or put in dumb 24/7 title skits no one cares about.
I can't get invested in the top guys if the rest of the action/undercard is not important, It doesn't work like that.
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Post by Cyno on Dec 4, 2020 10:36:46 GMT -5
Its a combination of factors. WWE constantly blundering PR wise is one of the biggest problems, so people aren't willing to cut them much slack. Likewise the booking (at least on the main roster) is a problem. It has been stated many times in the past that Vince doesn't want anyone becoming a big star because he is afraid of getting burned like he supposedly did with The Rock. And that is not even talking about the COVID or union stuff (although the anti-union stuff is a problem for pro wrestling in general, not just WWE). The lack of excitement is probably due to that. On the flipside of things, I do think AEW gets a bit too much slack at times. If WWE pulled the same finish AEW did last night for a title match several months in the making, people would be flipping their lid. Plus for all the hell we give WWE for their bad PR, AEW is just as bad, if not worse with them letting their executives (incl Tony) go off on random fans on twitter, along with Tony's constant problems of overhyping and failing to deliver. Its why AEW needs to hire an actual PR firm. Can you imagine how many people would flip out if Stephanie, Vince, or Triple H spent their day lashing out at fans on social media? I think people are guilty of giving AEW the benefit of the doubt simply because it's the new and trendy thing, and even this board has shown it. Granted, I've complained an awful lot about the company, so my take means nothing and is going to be dismissed as sour grapes, yet I have noticed that, for years, when WWE had a crappy women's division, folks were demanding they give them more airtime or hire better talent (which Stephanie McMahon would later, and falsely, take credit for); meanwhile, AEW has a crappy women's division, but people keep saying "yeah, it's not good right now, but they're going through an awful lot, give them a chance, it takes time", and so on. Not every bad decision AEW does is defended, but they have gotten a lot of clemency from a community in general that would be quick to mock WWE or Impact Wrestling if they made the same mistake. As for nobody becoming a big star, I genuinely believe that is one of the main reasons why WWE feels so hollow. Back in the day, long before I started watching, if you went to a show, you went so you could see big names. Vince was afraid of folks getting so big they didn't need the business, and wanted to make it so it was the company that folks would see. The thing is... you'd have to live in some strange, dystopic world in order for that to be effective. Certain individuals help move the needle and sell tickets and move merchandise, so by shifting focus away from those folks (which from the mid 2000s to the late 2010s was exclusively John Cena and, for a period, Roman Reigns) instead opting to brand the company as the star, you were opting for a more soulless, bland option. For decades, wrestling events marketed towards attractions, then all of a sudden, the guy who changed everything (for the worse, in the grand scheme) decides that can no longer be done out of fears they get so big they don't need wrestling anymore, and assumes folks will go see the letters on the marquee anyway. Well... that worked. Albeit at a cost; fewer and fewer customers showed up every year to his events and watched his TV shows. Sure, he's at his most profitable, but time will tell if there is a crash soon. AEW is a new company, has listened to feedback, and has acted on it, so they've earned benefit of the doubt. WWE has years of history of telling the fans to go screw themselves, so they lost that benefit of the doubt. TNA had the same benefit of the doubt when they were new, but they completely squandered it. It's that simple. If AEW suddenly inherited WWE's arrogance and disdain for its fans or became a comedy of errors like Dixie-era TNA, they'd lose that benefit of the doubt pretty quickly.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 4, 2020 10:40:01 GMT -5
I think people are guilty of giving AEW the benefit of the doubt simply because it's the new and trendy thing, and even this board has shown it. Granted, I've complained an awful lot about the company, so my take means nothing and is going to be dismissed as sour grapes, yet I have noticed that, for years, when WWE had a crappy women's division, folks were demanding they give them more airtime or hire better talent (which Stephanie McMahon would later, and falsely, take credit for); meanwhile, AEW has a crappy women's division, but people keep saying "yeah, it's not good right now, but they're going through an awful lot, give them a chance, it takes time", and so on. Not every bad decision AEW does is defended, but they have gotten a lot of clemency from a community in general that would be quick to mock WWE or Impact Wrestling if they made the same mistake. As for nobody becoming a big star, I genuinely believe that is one of the main reasons why WWE feels so hollow. Back in the day, long before I started watching, if you went to a show, you went so you could see big names. Vince was afraid of folks getting so big they didn't need the business, and wanted to make it so it was the company that folks would see. The thing is... you'd have to live in some strange, dystopic world in order for that to be effective. Certain individuals help move the needle and sell tickets and move merchandise, so by shifting focus away from those folks (which from the mid 2000s to the late 2010s was exclusively John Cena and, for a period, Roman Reigns) instead opting to brand the company as the star, you were opting for a more soulless, bland option. For decades, wrestling events marketed towards attractions, then all of a sudden, the guy who changed everything (for the worse, in the grand scheme) decides that can no longer be done out of fears they get so big they don't need wrestling anymore, and assumes folks will go see the letters on the marquee anyway. Well... that worked. Albeit at a cost; fewer and fewer customers showed up every year to his events and watched his TV shows. Sure, he's at his most profitable, but time will tell if there is a crash soon. AEW is a new company, has listened to feedback, and has acted on it, so they've earned benefit of the doubt. WWE has years of history of telling the fans to go screw themselves, so they lost that benefit of the doubt. Impact had the same benefit of the doubt when they were new, but they completely squandered it. It's that simple. New Japan also gets a ton of leeway and faith. ROH used to, but then it hit some pretty bumpy patches, then it got better, then it hit bumpy patches again. There's so much nuance in why one company is given opportunities and faith over another that gets thrown away. Wrestling promotions all at one time had the benefit of the doubt, some have just worked very hard to squander, rip up, and piss on the shreds of it.
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Bad Moon
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Post by Bad Moon on Dec 4, 2020 10:44:27 GMT -5
Stop fighting it. Give in to your instincts and quit paying them. Your favorite wrestlers all deserve your support, but this garbage company doesn't.
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Post by eJm on Dec 4, 2020 10:46:32 GMT -5
AEW is a new company, has listened to feedback, and has acted on it, so they've earned benefit of the doubt. WWE has years of history of telling the fans to go screw themselves, so they lost that benefit of the doubt. Impact had the same benefit of the doubt when they were new, but they completely squandered it. It's that simple. New Japan also gets a ton of leeway and faith. ROH used to, but then it hit some pretty bumpy patches, then it got better, then it hit bumpy patches again. There's so much nuance in why one company is given opportunities and faith over another that gets thrown away. Wrestling promotions all at one time had the benefit of the doubt, some have just worked very hard to squander, rip up, and piss on the shreds of it. Look at Impact. Do you think the Impact of the Hogan era could have gotten the Women’s division it has now? It probably wouldn’t have been able to convince the worst women’s workers in WWE right now to sign. That took a lot of time to build goodwill back and even then, it had its own bumps on the road.
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Post by Cyno on Dec 4, 2020 10:52:08 GMT -5
AEW is a new company, has listened to feedback, and has acted on it, so they've earned benefit of the doubt. WWE has years of history of telling the fans to go screw themselves, so they lost that benefit of the doubt. Impact had the same benefit of the doubt when they were new, but they completely squandered it. It's that simple. New Japan also gets a ton of leeway and faith. ROH used to, but then it hit some pretty bumpy patches, then it got better, then it hit bumpy patches again. There's so much nuance in why one company is given opportunities and faith over another that gets thrown away. Wrestling promotions all at one time had the benefit of the doubt, some have just worked very hard to squander, rip up, and piss on the shreds of it. New Japan also had to rebuild that trust from the fans after Antonio Inoki almost tanked the company with his boner for MMA. That took years.
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mistery
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Post by mistery on Dec 4, 2020 10:53:51 GMT -5
I would go as far to say AEW has some trust issues as well, especially regarding the women. Until they are treated significantly better (on the same level as the men are), it's hard to take anything they say seriously in regards to women's wrestling (I would go as far to say they have the second worst women's division of a major company in the US, only ROH is worse). And as a fan of women's wrestling, I was excited at first when they said the women would be just as important as the men in the company, and...they ended up lying about that!
Basically in my eyes, AEW has the better mens division, but WWE and Impact have the better women's divisions. And no, I don't think the Impact/AEW partnership is going to mean more time for the women either.
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Post by 06vwgti on Dec 4, 2020 11:26:14 GMT -5
The difference is the midcard and below gets attention and storylines elsewhere. In WWE the midcard and anyone else below that are jobbed out, given nothing to do or put in dumb 24/7 title skits no one cares about. I can't get invested in the top guys if the rest of the action/undercard is not important, It doesn't work like that. I had hoped when Raw went 3 hours the midcard and below would have seen more attention, I was sadly mistaken.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Dec 4, 2020 11:26:53 GMT -5
Right, personally,not gonna shit on people for liking WWE but I cant for life of me say WWE has better wrestlers when I think they have some of the worst. Right now I’d say WWE has one of the *best* workrate-based rosters since 2000-2002. The issue is how they’re stifled with their angles and match production. I meant character not wrestlers.oops
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Post by Dub H on Dec 4, 2020 11:31:23 GMT -5
I love how a thread negative about WWE became a whataboutism of AEW . Not gonna debate the fine points of booking ,woman division,etc,but ehe nd is simple. AEW has a good relationships with the fans and earned a lot of trust.WWE treats fans like crap. Honestly the argument" oh but if WWE did you would hate it" is always stupid and shows the sour grapes.two whole companies with very different booking and well very different at a lot of stuff.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 4, 2020 11:39:18 GMT -5
New Japan also gets a ton of leeway and faith. ROH used to, but then it hit some pretty bumpy patches, then it got better, then it hit bumpy patches again. There's so much nuance in why one company is given opportunities and faith over another that gets thrown away. Wrestling promotions all at one time had the benefit of the doubt, some have just worked very hard to squander, rip up, and piss on the shreds of it. New Japan also had to rebuild that trust from the fans after Antonio Inoki almost tanked the company with his boner for MMA. That took years. New Japan absolutely went through dark periods they worked very hard to come out of. And what'd it take? New management, hard work, commitment both to the fans and to putting on a quality show. They pulled the company back from the brink and now they can pack the Tokyo Dome two nights in a row. I think too many people try to read a lack of faith in WWE as a failing of those critical of WWE like it's not a symptom, when we have living simulations across the business of how one maintains or even rebuilds faith.
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Post by Cyno on Dec 4, 2020 11:44:07 GMT -5
Anyway, I do think WWE will get some benefit of the doubt back once Vince dies or otherwise steps down. Assuming Triple H and Stephanie inherit day-to-day operations of the company, they should get some sort of grace period to transition from what Vince was doing to what their plans for the company would be. Do I think they'll make WWE an ethical company overnight or even long-term? Probably not. But I do think things will likely improve and WWE can, at the very least, upgrade from "cartoon supervillain" evil to "typical corporation" evil.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 4, 2020 11:48:57 GMT -5
New Japan also gets a ton of leeway and faith. ROH used to, but then it hit some pretty bumpy patches, then it got better, then it hit bumpy patches again. There's so much nuance in why one company is given opportunities and faith over another that gets thrown away. Wrestling promotions all at one time had the benefit of the doubt, some have just worked very hard to squander, rip up, and piss on the shreds of it. Look at Impact. Do you think the Impact of the Hogan era could have gotten the Women’s division it has now? It probably wouldn’t have been able to convince the worst women’s workers in WWE right now to sign. That took a lot of time to build goodwill back and even then, it had its own bumps on the road. Don't even need to go as far as the Hogan era. Think about a few short years ago when the big feud for the women's division was The Dollhouse versus The Beautiful People, and the agonizing reign of Gail Kim's power trip that had the booking team basically licking her boots clean for like two straight years, a field so desolate that it took Gail's retirement for there to possibly be a chance for another star to exist in her place. What it's become now, being a player that can even court talents over AEW, is something that couldn't have happened a few years ago.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2020 11:53:14 GMT -5
I love how a thread negative about WWE became a whataboutism of AEW . Not gonna debate the fine points of booking ,woman division,etc,but ehe nd is simple. AEW has a good relationships with the fans and earned a lot of trust.WWE treats fans like crap. Honestly the argument" oh but if WWE did you would hate it" is always stupid and shows the sour grapes.two whole companies with very different booking and well very different at a lot of stuff. It IS true, however. You can't say anything remotely bad about AEW on this forum with people criticizing you or dogpiling or accusing you of being a troll or Jim Cornette or yadda yadda yadda. Yeah, I know I'm going to get grief once more for saying that, but I am just getting weary of feeling like I have to keep my feelings to myself. If we can dunk on WWE or Impact or ROH at every opportunity, how come AEW is untouchable?
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Post by Cyno on Dec 4, 2020 12:03:23 GMT -5
I love how a thread negative about WWE became a whataboutism of AEW . Not gonna debate the fine points of booking ,woman division,etc,but ehe nd is simple. AEW has a good relationships with the fans and earned a lot of trust.WWE treats fans like crap. Honestly the argument" oh but if WWE did you would hate it" is always stupid and shows the sour grapes.two whole companies with very different booking and well very different at a lot of stuff. It IS true, however. You can't say anything remotely bad about AEW on this forum with people criticizing you or dogpiling or accusing you of being a troll or Jim Cornette or yadda yadda yadda. Yeah, I know I'm going to get grief once more for saying that, but I am just getting weary of feeling like I have to keep my feelings to myself. If we can dunk on WWE or Impact or ROH at every opportunity, how come AEW is untouchable? Because it's false. We have a thread 68 pages long that disproves that. And that's a problem with a lot of the people who complain about the AEW fanboys being mean to them. They come into the section antagonistic and dropping hot takes like they're hosting an ESPN midday show. That doesn't produce good discussion. It's just flamebait. That doesn't mean there aren't people who are oddly defensive about the company, but it's a lot easier to make them show their asses when people aren't being pricks in the first place.
If you don't want people confronting you, stop being confrontational.
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