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Post by BorneAgain on Dec 4, 2020 12:04:27 GMT -5
A lot of this just comes down to faith by the audience in the company, and WWE simply has none. There's been too many botched angles, mishandled talents, and general lack of change to get excited about. Throw in a stale product with cookie cutter presentation and there's even less inclination to keep up with it. Far less people watch the show with confidence; its a continual process of looking for what little nuggets of quality one can find, with the expectation that even those may be derailed at any point. Its the collective culmination of all the company's bad habits amounting to shows that just feel there and little more.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Dec 4, 2020 12:05:18 GMT -5
I love how a thread negative about WWE became a whataboutism of AEW . Not gonna debate the fine points of booking ,woman division,etc,but ehe nd is simple. AEW has a good relationships with the fans and earned a lot of trust.WWE treats fans like crap. Honestly the argument" oh but if WWE did you would hate it" is always stupid and shows the sour grapes.two whole companies with very different booking and well very different at a lot of stuff. It IS true, however. You can't say anything remotely bad about AEW on this forum with people criticizing you or dogpiling or accusing you of being a troll or Jim Cornette or yadda yadda yadda. Yeah, I know I'm going to get grief once more for saying that, but I am just getting weary of feeling like I have to keep my feelings to myself. If we can dunk on WWE or Impact or ROH at every opportunity, how come AEW is untouchable? There is a whole thread dedicated to how bad the division is. People soent months talking trash about talk order. There was moments blasted over. There is the more defensive fans but a slogn as you are not a jerk over the : you cant critic" is simply a lie. I didnt even bring up people not accepting critics ,wasnt part of my post. Even the finiah yesterday had its share of people not enjoying it.
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Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Dec 4, 2020 12:07:32 GMT -5
Suggestion to everyone: if you think there's a board-wide trend, start counting how many different posters actually hold the opinions that feel like an overwhelming majority.
I started doing this about two months ago, and it turned out that many of the things that felt like overwhelming majorities were just one or two people who posted enough to carry the entire other side of an argument against a majority.
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Post by eJm on Dec 4, 2020 12:32:41 GMT -5
Also, I’m sorry, as someone whose been here for a while, I can’t just ignore the fact that there were times when the old TNA board was people bickering with each other about the state of the company with some defenders that would make every decision seem like a positive.
Like, some of that stuff got bad.
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mcstoklasa
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Post by mcstoklasa on Dec 4, 2020 12:37:41 GMT -5
I just watch the stuff with stone cold on repeat nowadays
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Dec 4, 2020 12:41:35 GMT -5
Sadly for the WWE, all the money in the world can't buy them out of creative stagnation. Proven creative writers don't want to work in the WWE environment given the non union environment and the legendarily poor treatment they're subject to, and even if they did, their work would be mixed by Vince on the day of the event. Only proven talent get input on their characters, but the only real way to get proven is to have chosen one status like reigns, et al. If you have suggestions and Vince doesn't like you, the idea will be ignored or given to someone else... You can't generate buzz in that environment. Like everyone that leaves the company even those that "Creative had nothing for" have said that the writers aren't the issue and creative usually pitched a ton of ideas to Vince... and Vince just shoots them down. Mox talked about how the writers actually had some really cool ideas that he was really excited for but Vince wouldn't even hear them out... Things on that front aren't changing until someone can convince Vince he's the problem or he is no longer in power... and I don't see either happening any time soon.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 4, 2020 12:46:51 GMT -5
Suggestion to everyone: if you think there's a board-wide trend, start counting how many different posters actually hold the opinions that feel like an overwhelming majority. I started doing this about two months ago, and it turned out that many of the things that felt like overwhelming majorities were just one or two people who posted enough to carry the entire other side of an argument against a majority. A much more time consuming thing to consider, but also maybe worth at least thinking through is how many people not only do X but then also do Y. A lot of whataboutism on topics comes down to the belief that the people criticizing X doing something would love if it was done by Y, or claim that somethign happened in one thread and it was hated but then this maybe similar thing is being praised, or this wrestler gets away with their monster overpush but everyone hates this other wrestler for it. But tons of the double standard strawmen people put together come from taking entirely different users and smashing their opinions together to form one singular hive mind to yell at without considering if it's the same users being vocal in those conversations. The actual concrete evidence of a double standard that people like to truck out is much, much more difficult to find than it is to just blindly accuse people of.
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Post by DrBackflipsHoffman on Dec 4, 2020 13:29:07 GMT -5
The CM Punk Paradox/Punk's Razor - Nothing bad can happen in wrestling while the possibility of CM Punk having done it instead exists
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Post by Cyno on Dec 4, 2020 13:46:02 GMT -5
Suggestion to everyone: if you think there's a board-wide trend, start counting how many different posters actually hold the opinions that feel like an overwhelming majority. I started doing this about two months ago, and it turned out that many of the things that felt like overwhelming majorities were just one or two people who posted enough to carry the entire other side of an argument against a majority. A much more time consuming thing to consider, but also maybe worth at least thinking through is how many people not only do X but then also do Y. A lot of whataboutism on topics comes down to the belief that the people criticizing X doing something would love if it was done by Y, or claim that somethign happened in one thread and it was hated but then this maybe similar thing is being praised, or this wrestler gets away with their monster overpush but everyone hates this other wrestler for it. But tons of the double standard strawmen people put together come from taking entirely different users and smashing their opinions together to form one singular hive mind to yell at without considering if it's the same users being vocal in those conversations. The actual concrete evidence of a double standard that people like to truck out is much, much more difficult to find than it is to just blindly accuse people of. Yeah, in this case, there is no double standard because different standards exist for different things. Even within WWE itself, Raw and Smackdown are a completely different kind of operation compared to NXT.
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Post by Tyrannosaurus Sex on Dec 4, 2020 14:00:30 GMT -5
The thing with WWE is they dangle opportunities of hope for the fans, like in 2011 when they teased that a new direction was coming towards the younger talent, or in 2016 when things started to shift with more and more NXT talent coming up and Smackdown in particular being a highlight. Even with smaller things like interesting character debuts or changes in direction. But once people start to build up hope and feel that they like something, it's suddenly yanked away or corrupted into something terrible. You can only get so used to disappointment that it either becomes second nature that you can't be surprised by, or you're indoctrinated to take it like some kind of sadomasochistic toxic relationship clinging on to whatever you like before it's taken away from you eventually, with exceptions being as rare as finding Munchlax.
As for AEW and the responses it gets, I 100% agree that it absolutely has sycophants that try to justify and defend everything they do, even I think it's annoying. I consider myself a fan of it, but I see the flaws in it too, I'll agree with complaints that I think are totally valid and make sense, I don't like some roster members, I'm not a fan of the treatment of the women's division, even the main event of this past week I thought was an awful match while being a big fan of the competitors.
But in saying that, there are definitely people that seem like they're actively trying to dislike some of the product that they know are popular or just the company as a whole, sometimes to the point where it does come off very much as trolling because of the cartoonish level of hatred over booking decisions. For example, this might be a hot take itself but whenever it comes up, I see a LOT more vitriolic personal hatred towards the Elite than in anyone in WWE barring Triple H or Vince, sometimes even worse to the point that it's as if literally every single thing they do is the worst thing in the world and that has been going on even before AEW existed. I once saw a post here that actively wished for AEW to die solely because of "not liking the Young Bucks' idea of wrestling", and it actually had likes, that's just ridiculous.
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Post by koreycaskets on Dec 4, 2020 14:11:07 GMT -5
Even though I'm not an AEW fan I still think their existence in is amazing for business.
As for NXT. I don't even think of them and WWE as being the same entity even though it is in reality. To me even when NXT is bad, it's good.
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Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby
Grimlock
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Dec 4, 2020 14:18:35 GMT -5
For example, this might be a hot take itself but whenever it comes up, I see a LOT more vitriolic personal hatred towards the Elite than in anyone in WWE barring Triple H or Vince, sometimes even worse to the point that it's as if literally every single thing they do is the worst thing in the world and that has been going on even before AEW existed. I once saw a post here that actively wished for AEW to die solely because of "not liking the Young Bucks' idea of wrestling", and it actually had likes, that's just ridiculous. This is probably the thing that weirds me out the most...I don't hate any wrestler, anywhere, ever as much as some people (not just here) (perhaps more in places other than here) hate the Elite. And if you pressed me to name the wrestlers I hate the most, the answers would be, like...Jay Briscoe? Austin Aries? Tessa Blanchard? Velveteen Dream? Dave Crist? Wrestlers that I dislike solely because of their actions outside of the ring. There is just not a single wrestler anywhere that produces more than apathy to me based on the work they put on screen.
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Post by Fake Jesus on Dec 4, 2020 14:18:57 GMT -5
There are people - even on here - who regularly basically imply that their reason for not liking Cody Rhodes (who has a smoking hot wife) and Kenny Omega is that they, basically, come across as gay to these losers for whatever reason and this is a bad thing. which is hatred on a scale only Roman Reigns has previously garnered. If you think AEW is the only wrestling company with partisans you need to catch yourself on, even f***ing TNA had ultras
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 4, 2020 14:26:32 GMT -5
The CM Punk Paradox/Punk's Razor - Nothing bad can happen in wrestling while the possibility of CM Punk having done it instead exists You wouldn't have a problem if CM Punk tried to claim people would be fine with CM Punk doing it.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Dec 4, 2020 14:29:47 GMT -5
For example, this might be a hot take itself but whenever it comes up, I see a LOT more vitriolic personal hatred towards the Elite than in anyone in WWE barring Triple H or Vince, sometimes even worse to the point that it's as if literally every single thing they do is the worst thing in the world and that has been going on even before AEW existed. I once saw a post here that actively wished for AEW to die solely because of "not liking the Young Bucks' idea of wrestling", and it actually had likes, that's just ridiculous. This is probably the thing that weirds me out the most...I don't hate any wrestler, anywhere, ever as much as some people (not just here) (perhaps more in places other than here) hate the Elite. And if you pressed me to name the wrestlers I hate the most, the answers would be, like...Jay Briscoe? Austin Aries? Tessa Blanchard? Velveteen Dream? Dave Crist? Wrestlers that I dislike solely because of their actions outside of the ring. There is just not a single wrestler anywhere that produces more than apathy to me based on the work they put on screen. What's funny is the hate they get i don't understand either. Aside from being over confidence to the point of arrogance I haven't really seen them do anything hateful. Maybe being too meta and not having that sense of humor. Same with many wrestlers in WWE that get hate. I dont think Seth Rollins is a bad guy. I think he is a moron that lacks self awareness but not a bad guy. But u don't wish him to fail
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Chiral
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Post by Chiral on Dec 4, 2020 14:46:59 GMT -5
I'm really digging Drew and Roman as the top guys (which would be shocking if I told myself that even like a year ago), I'd love if Raw/SD top to bottom felt as fun as their stuff does. Roman is amazing but I f***ing HATE Drew being invincible and destroying everything he sees. Got no idea why but that really pisses me off with a champion. Then I have just the match for you!
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 4, 2020 16:51:10 GMT -5
This is a multifaceted issue, and I think people have covered a lot of the potential reasons, but I think a lot of what it comes back to is that WWE really presents and promotes itself in modern times in ways that seem very antithetical to promoting pro wrestling, at least historically speaking.
You've got issues like "no wrestler can be a bigger draw than the brand itself", which is incredibly antithetical to how wrestling's been promoted over the years...hell, it's antithetical to how the WWF itself was promoted during successful times like the Hulkamania era. You've got a company pushing seven hours of "must see prime time TV" at you a week, plus monthly PPV cards and specials, and that doesn't even count smaller shows like 205 Live; this is incredibly tough to sustain and leads to tons of repetition in terms of even simple things like what camera angles and commentary buzzwords you'll be hearing a lot. And yes, you've ultimately got the issue of Vince wanting to control so much about everybody's presentation that it drains the authenticity out of the proceedings, which combines with the general sense that if you're not a "chosen one" main eventer then you just don't matter on WWE programming...oh, and Vince might just forget about you at a random time and drop your push, sorry.
Again, a lot of this gets at the heart of the problem: WWE really isn't a pro wrestling company anymore, and hasn't been for a long time. They present pro wrestling shows, yes, but they don't really promote pro wrestling in a way that feels familiar or natural to the industry. Historically, even the WWF itself was built on bringing in stars and allowing them to be themselves to a large degree, with the company serving as the promoter of those talents and personalities. For many years now, though, WWE has instead put itself in the business of trying to mould wrestlers into specific roles, and put the wrestlers in the job of promoting, well...the promotion, rather than the other way around.
But as for the rest of the wrestling scene, there are other factors at play making people more excited for them, or more willing to give them a chance than WWE: some commit to weird or niche presentations but in the process get a more loyal following (e.g. NWA's 80s style, Impact's current Lucha Underground-inspired segments, etc.). Others push legitimately young stars into prominent spots and let them be themselves, or at least design a show around a style with a younger sensibility to it (e.g. GCW's punk style on the indies, AEW's crop of 20-somethings rising up). Most of them also actually make use of wrestling matches as vehicles for physical storytelling, getting across where characters and feuds are at based on what happens in the ring AND in promos/packages (e.g. most mainstream puro, AEW and ROH also do a good job of it here), while WWE too often dips into "wrestling for wrestling's sake".
Ultimately, though, there's a reason that "You'd hate this if WWE did it!" or "You'd like this if <insert other promotion here> did it!" arguments fall apart: it's because these are different promotions, and they have different histories, different booking and in-ring styles, different presentations, etc. I remember getting made fun of as a kid for not liking a lot of late 90s pop but being a Beatles fan, and I'd get told "you'd like (whatever pop tune from the time) if the Beatles wrote it", and my answer typically was "Well...the Beatles wouldn't have written that song." And even if they had, odds are it would've been presented and performed in a very different context, so what's the point of the comparison?
I'm willing to put up with a screwy ending to a NJPW match because 99% of the time they commit to definitive (if not necessarily clean) match endings; I'm ok with my favorites not winning every time there because I know they often book with longterm story or character beats in mind. I'm ok when an AEW midcarder doesn't win against an upper card guy because so far it seems clear they intend to use their midcard and not just let people they care about waste away there; even the ones not going to the main event some day typically at least have something to do. I'm ok if MLW puts on a match that doesn't fully appeal to me, because I know they're big on varying the in-ring styles they present, so if I don't like one match, I'll likely enjoy the others. Context matters, and putting a story beat or match in a different setting/promotion/context can completely change the baggage it carries or how a crowd perceives it, and with good reason.
Hell, my big wrestling hot take is that WWE has typically been...not great since the 1980s. It's had good stretches, it always at least has some really great talents on the roster who are worth watching (e.g. the mid-90s doldrums at least gave us Bret/HBK/Owen/etc.), but since the end of the Hogan era it kind of feels like they haven't put on tons of great stuff for longer than a couple of years at a stretch. That's the baggage I bring with me if I watch WWE: I can't get past the feeling "even if this is a good show, it's not likely going to last long term, so I'm not likely to get invested."
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Dec 4, 2020 17:20:14 GMT -5
For me,they just got me to the point where I don't care anymore. After YEARS of boring and/or bad shows I'm not sure there's anything they could do to bring back my interest.
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Post by BatPunk on Dec 5, 2020 13:13:51 GMT -5
I think I’m a little long in the tooth as a fan to be really excited by “this new thing is happening” or “this is going to be a game changer”.
All I want is good, solid stories with likeable and unlikable characters. With a little left field surprise once in a blue moon.
I get this from NXT. I get this from NJPW. I get this from Stardom. I like and trust that I’m going to enjoy their shows.
Over the years I think I’ve heard everything where companies are going to be different or better, WWE included, and I kinda roll my eyes now. Think of any, mainstream or not, tv show where they try and change it up for the audience and they didn’t lose viewers and get cancelled? Now think of shows that are tried and true and they stick to a formula that works (I’m looking at you CSI). Loyal viewership for 20+ years.
I feel like WWE is trying* to get into that tried and true territory and it’s really not a bad place to be.
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