All the excitement in other wrestling, then I look at WWE...

[EoE: Well There's Your Problem]

...And it’s like... I wish we could get it back to the point where we were like that for WWE again. Where we didn’t have to worry about booking or where so-and-so is on the card because they were doing awesome stuff regardless, where people could lose clean and not have it mean your career is flatlining or the booker man hates you in real life, where results happen because they further the story and not because they couldn’t decide on a winner, where old legends are actually useful and not taking spots from the young guys, where we could enjoy any of the actually good stuff happening instead of being distant and reluctant to do so because you know in the back of your mind that it won’t last, where it gives you the same kind of joys that you felt when you were younger.

*sigh*

Are we really gonna have to wait until the old man dies for things to change for the better? We all know he ain’t retiring, and nobody lives longer than old white billionaires with poor morals. Is there really no hope? And this is coming from someone who is like, I TRY MY HARDEST to keep an open mind, to enjoy the good stuff as it comes, but I can only push the boulder uphill for so long.

Just needed to vent there, because the difference between the discourse between the AEW board and the WWE board is like night and day.

[Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)]

When WWE is good they are GOOD but that’s too far Inbetween

I just don’t care. Outside of here, I do not talk about wrestling unless I’m with my boys I have gone to shows with

As morbid as it sounds, nothing will change until Vince kicks the bucket or is deemed mentally incapable of leading the company. Def not going wish death on him and the mental part is nothing to joke about

I enjoy certain aspects of WWE (I’m not counting NXT in that) and those aspects I can get in bite size pieces on social media or YouTube if I’m interested. Other then that, it’s a chore to watch every single show and that’s a waste of my time

[Chiral]

I'm really digging Drew and Roman as the top guys (which would be shocking if I told myself that even like a year ago), I'd love if Raw/SD top to bottom felt as fun as their stuff does.

[Deleted]

It's frustrating because we still get some glimpses of greatness like the first few months of Becky and Charlotte's 2018 feud (as one-sided as it was), heel Daniel Bryan from late 2018-Fall 2019, Drew becoming the most likable top babyface in a long time, and the Roman/Jey angle up until Jey turned.

[Pushed to the Moon]

I think I'm less excited about things these days cos I lack a proper "connection" to the wrestlers so I don't really care what they do. It's probably just cos I've grown up but when I was a kid, HBK winning or losing was everything. Even aside from booking or whatever the storyline was, just seeing him in action was exciting. I still like a few people these days just fine but not to the extent where I'm really invested in them. The only thing that really got me in the last few years was Kofi winning the title.

[This Player Hating Mothman]

I think the best way I can sum up how I feel about WWE in its best, "when it's good terms" is Wrestlemania 35. It had me excited to see where it went, and so emotionally invested in Kofi's story that I was fully prepared to tear up if he won because I was just so into the story and so happy to see this story I'd wanted for years be done so well. We got together at like 11 AM to pre-game on other stuff and hang out, had a great time, and the show ended up being really good. Top to bottom, it was a solid show we enjoyed, we had lots of big emotional moments of faves winning, stuff like the Seth/Brock result were huge shocks that got us excited. Contrasted to last year where we hated Mania 34 and all shambled off in dismay, the energy was great. Really fun show.

Then it ended, and I remember the ride home with the friend giving me a lift where we talked about the show for maybe two minutes and then like Rainbow Six for the other twenty. The next day someone asked in the group chat if anyone's planning to watch Raw and not one single person was. We watched a sincerely good WWE show and felt like that was our fill, and we moved on with little faith it was going to sustain that momentum and keep us engaged. By that summer, we were grouping up to watch AEW PPVs and even binging up both nights of WK the day after they aired, and never did another WWE watch party again. And I can only speak to my friend circle on this one, but there's definitely an issue when WWE can even put on a good and fulfilling show, and everyone's ready to dip off from there feeling like they don't need to go any further.

Nothing is changing until Vince goes, either structurally with the shows, or in the overall audience perception that even when it's good in parts there's no real sense that WWE is "good again". WWE never has the top-down consistency needed to "get good" again.

[mistery]

Its a combination of factors. WWE constantly blundering PR wise is one of the biggest problems, so people aren't willing to cut them much slack. Likewise the booking (at least on the main roster) is a problem. It has been stated many times in the past that Vince doesn't want anyone becoming a big star because he is afraid of getting burned like he supposedly did with The Rock. And that is not even talking about the COVID or union stuff (although the anti-union stuff is a problem for pro wrestling in general, not just WWE). The lack of excitement is probably due to that.

On the flipside of things, I do think AEW gets a bit too much slack at times. If WWE pulled the same finish AEW did last night for a title match several months in the making, people would be flipping their lid. Plus for all the hell we give WWE for their bad PR, AEW is just as bad, if not worse with them letting their executives (incl Tony) go off on random fans on twitter, along with Tony's constant problems of overhyping and failing to deliver. Its why AEW needs to hire an actual PR firm. Can you imagine how many people would flip out if Stephanie, Vince, or Triple H spent their day lashing out at fans on social media?

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

I’d wager it’s WWE’s increasingly bad PR that’s really hurting their bottom line, pandemic notwithstanding.

But, and even with the complaints I do have, I’ll say they’ve had worse booking in the past than this year.

[mistery]

Dec 3, 2020 8:42:00 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

Why does the allegory have to be “pushing a boulder up a hill”? It’s not that dramatic.

WWE has aspects about it that entertain me, and a number of things that make my eyes roll. NJPW is my favorite company right now, and they’re not perfect either. Same case with AEW, they’ve got a compelling product but they also do some things that I don’t think work well.

I think the issue basically boils down to no promotion is perfect. WWE is the promotion you watch if you want a quick hit considering you can miss multiple weeks of the show and still understand what is going on. AEW is the promotion you should watch if you want long overarching storylines which require almost weekly viewing.

Like...I enjoy AEW but good god the fanbase is basically Rick and Morty levels of awful. Outside of the women's division, you aren't allowed to criticize any aspect of the company without its fans jumping you. WWE has the same problem, but to a significantly lower extent.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Not counting NXT, WWE always feels like they got 2-3 interesting to good things going on, but the issue is, that's between two Main Roster shows and five hours of programming.

It's just not sustainably good... who knows how much it'll change whenever Vince passes away too, or steps down, but I feel he'll die in his chair before that...

As Captain said when they're good, they're GOOD... but it's so hard for them to keep it going. They're more lightening in a bottle with moments than a consistently good product anymore, and who knows when that day will come again, if it ever does.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

Dec 3, 2020 8:53:23 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

I’d wager it’s WWE’s increasingly bad PR that’s really hurting their bottom line, pandemic notwithstanding.

But, and even with the complaints I do have, I’ll say they’ve had worse booking in the past than this year.

Dec 3, 2020 8:54:09 GMT -5 mistery said:

Dec 3, 2020 8:42:00 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

Why does the allegory have to be “pushing a boulder up a hill”? It’s not that dramatic.

WWE has aspects about it that entertain me, and a number of things that make my eyes roll. NJPW is my favorite company right now, and they’re not perfect either. Same case with AEW, they’ve got a compelling product but they also do some things that I don’t think work well.

I think the issue basically boils down to no promotion is perfect. WWE is the promotion you watch if you want a quick hit considering you can miss multiple weeks of the show and still understand what is going on. AEW is the promotion you should watch if you want long overarching storylines which require almost weekly viewing.

Like...I enjoy AEW but good god the fanbase is basically Rick and Morty levels of awful. Outside of the women's division, you aren't allowed to criticize any aspect of the company without its fans jumping you. WWE has the same problem, but to a significantly lower extent.

I deleted that first post because I didn’t like the tone of it, for the record. Not trying to stir up divisions.

Which is something all fans should hopefully avoid, really. People shouldn’t feel like they need to either hide the fact they enjoy WWE stuff without having to excuse whatever skeezy policy the company is up to, or for whatever reason. Even with the leashes they’re placed on creatively, they still have one of the most talented rosters ever at the moment. Enough of that talent comes through on television to where I get why people still follow WWE.

[fw91]

EhI lurked in the AEW thread yesterday, and there was stuff that was said that I didn’t like in terms of discourse. Found some things hypocritical (nothing to do with show quality) As long as people are respectful and consistent with fairness with how they treat others who are on opposite ends, there’s no reason to be apologetic for how you feel.

[eJm]

Putting aside all the other aspects that put people off from watching unrelated to the programming, as other have pointed out, this is a company more than capable of making at the very least interesting TV from what it has.

The roster is the best it probably will ever be, the agents and producers have the widest breath of experience there ever will be (indie mainstays to TV grown talent to industry legends) and there is something to having a large writing team assigned to do certain things (it's worked for television for years and allows some of them to go on to do their own thing later on, the Flapjack effect if you will) but most of the time, it all feels so...sterile. Like, there's no life to it and the glimmers of good stuff feel like flukes rather than consistent directions.

Like, there are negatives to AEW's approach, Impact's approach, MLW, New Japan etc but there's something more about them that feels like they're willing to try different things if they don't work once. AEW turned The Dark Order from "Spooky Perverts" to one of the more over acts in the company, Impact let Rosemary have full run of her own Broken Matt style universe, New Japan is good at making newer stars through long term planning etc. There is a sense of effort, that they want to see what works and modify it if it doesn't.

And then you look at something like Retribution. If there's something that demonstrates they don't genuinely know what's up, it's them. You have the capabilities of making this rogue set of people with a vendetta against WWE really cool and against your own formula with characters who, on social media at least, are fleshed out enough to try and justify their actions against the wider WWE roster. Hell, they seemed like a group who would give network executives the shivers because of their destruction. Except pretty much from moment zero, not even moment one, they made them seem like the most uncool thing ever by sending out that press release. Never mind all the other stuff, that's the moment when even Vince Russo would come up with something elaborate to make people aware of their existence. It'd be stupid but it'd be something.

I'm not saying the moment Vince leaves/dies the shackles come flying off and everyone is allowed to be as creative as they want to be but you get that sense of everyone's waiting for that moment to be able to do a bit more than they are which even ignoring that, you're going to have to convince Wall Street otherwise and that might be its own major hurdle as they see Vince as THE wrestling guy regardless of if it's actually good or not. But how long people are going to have to wait remains to be seen since Vince likely isn't going to be popping his clogs anytime soon.

[Magic knows Black Lives Matter]

Not gonna front, I actually don’t think things will improve that much when Vince kicks it. HHH have different ideas but he’s also proven himself to be just as much of a stubborn blockhead as Vince (see: Velveteen Dream).

The wrestling game is pretty dull and insular and I’m not sure when/if that’ll change. Especially during a year that felt like 10 years, wrestling’s snail’s pace of adapting is reaaaallly starting to show and that’s not a WWE thing. The whole industry needs a punch in the mouth before things get mildly exciting again.

[thehottag]

The main issue I have with WWE shows is they feel stale. We all know it's scripted, but you can tell so much due to the stilted promos, buzzwords & commentary. It all looks and sounds & feels forced & sterile. I don't always like the way other companies do things, but at least it feels unpredictable in places.

[Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story]

A few things to break down here:

1. AEW is still a new company with a loyal fanbase that hasn't had 30+ years of highs and lows. I think that in general will make things skew positive. It's still got that new car smell. Yes, it's almost 2 years old, but that's a toddler in business years.

2. WWE's oversaturated their audience with the sheer amount of TV that is on the air every week. The moments stand out less.

3. WWE's main programs are actually fine right now. RAW is fine, and Smackdown is actually *good*. I think there are a lot of fans who have been conditioned by WWE to pull the negative needle out of a haystack of pretty decent wrestling overall.

[polarbearpete]

Dec 3, 2020 10:05:05 GMT -5 Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story said:

A few things to break down here:

1. AEW is still a new company with a loyal fanbase that hasn't had 30+ years of highs and lows. I think that in general will make things skew positive. It's still got that new car smell. Yes, it's almost 2 years old, but that's a toddler in business years.

2. WWE's oversaturated their audience with the sheer amount of TV that is on the air every week. The moments stand out less.

3. WWE's main programs are actually fine right now. RAW is fine, and Smackdown is actually *good*. I think there are a lot of fans who have been conditioned by WWE to pull the negative needle out of a haystack of pretty decent wrestling overall.

Yeah, I typically get the same feeling watching Smackdown each week as I do watching AEW. They both are putting out very good TV. You add Raw to that and it’s booking is slightly worse but it’s also 3 hours long and it’s just way too much wrestling at that point, especially when they’re also putting out NXT for two hours every week, plus monthly PPVs.. If WWE had only one two-hour show each week on TV and concentrated just on that, I think it would be highly acclaimed. But the amount of content can be hard to follow and tedious after a while.

[Bang Bang Bart]

Dec 3, 2020 10:05:05 GMT -5 Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story said:

A few things to break down here:

1. AEW is still a new company with a loyal fanbase that hasn't had 30+ years of highs and lows. I think that in general will make things skew positive. It's still got that new car smell. Yes, it's almost 2 years old, but that's a toddler in business years.

2. WWE's oversaturated their audience with the sheer amount of TV that is on the air every week. The moments stand out less.

3. WWE's main programs are actually fine right now. RAW is fine, and Smackdown is actually *good*. I think there are a lot of fans who have been conditioned by WWE to pull the negative needle out of a haystack of pretty decent wrestling overall.

4. WWE’s sins outside the ring (their lax approach to Covid, keeping on questionable talents despite things they’ve done/said, the independent contractor debacle, controlling wrestlers’ side projects, their Saudi Arabia deal, etc.) probably helps paint a negative light for many.

[Deleted]

Dec 3, 2020 3:28:50 GMT -5 Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) said:

When WWE is good they are GOOD but that’s too far Inbetween

I just don’t care. Outside of here, I do not talk about wrestling unless I’m with my boys I have gone to shows with

As morbid as it sounds, nothing will change until Vince kicks the bucket or is deemed mentally incapable of leading the company. Def not going wish death on him and the mental part is nothing to joke about

I enjoy certain aspects of WWE (I’m not counting NXT in that) and those aspects I can get in bite size pieces on social media or YouTube if I’m interested. Other then that, it’s a chore to watch every single show and that’s a waste of my time

That's pretty much it for me but it isn't just WWE, it's all wrestling as a whole. I have way too much going on and more important things to do in life these days than care about watching a 2-3hr wrestling show each and every single week like years ago. Nah, not me.

I just peep those twitter posts and youtube comments and be good 99% of the time.

[sfvega]

Dec 3, 2020 8:54:09 GMT -5 mistery said:

Dec 3, 2020 8:42:00 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

Why does the allegory have to be “pushing a boulder up a hill”? It’s not that dramatic.

WWE has aspects about it that entertain me, and a number of things that make my eyes roll. NJPW is my favorite company right now, and they’re not perfect either. Same case with AEW, they’ve got a compelling product but they also do some things that I don’t think work well.

I think the issue basically boils down to no promotion is perfect. WWE is the promotion you watch if you want a quick hit considering you can miss multiple weeks of the show and still understand what is going on. AEW is the promotion you should watch if you want long overarching storylines which require almost weekly viewing.

Like...I enjoy AEW but good god the fanbase is basically Rick and Morty levels of awful. Outside of the women's division, you aren't allowed to criticize any aspect of the company without its fans jumping you. WWE has the same problem, but to a significantly lower extent.

I don't agree with your other post, which seems needlessly divisive, but I do agree with part of this. I really like AEW and I haven't watched WWE in years outside of RR/WM. But I do feel like any criticism of AEW gets shouted down. And I like the product and watch every week, but they have ups and downs just like anyone else. But a lot of people refuse to even entertain the idea that people can find some of the things they do to be negative or miss the mark. And it's way worse on Twitter than here. It doesn't at all need to be this tribal, extremist thing. It's still just wrasslin.