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Post by horseface on Apr 22, 2021 7:15:45 GMT -5
Having been an Indy referee/manager/wrestler and knowing locker room etiquette I have no sympathy whatsoever. He went in there with an ego mindset thinking he was the next ECW star, he disrespected veterans in the locker room by bragging about himself, lighting up a cigarette in front of Taz who loathes smoking, and asked a seasoned wrestler if he could get offense in when he was told already that he was just a fall guy. That is a big no no. Then he asked for New Jack to cut him, granted he probably wasn’t well aware of New Jack’s fighting nature but he asked for it. And also him and his father disrespected Tiny and his brother who were the ones who got them there and vouched for him. He lied about his age on top of all this. He did not belong there in the first place enough said. It should have been very obvious at that point, though, that the dude had no idea what he was into and the wrestlers and Heyman should have acted accordingly instead of having the dude get maimed. It's not like if Scott Hall or someone came in and started doing all that and got his ass beat--in that case you have a guy who should know better. In a sense they even gave him what he wanted and made him a name we still refer to in 2021 and not a total nobody who got kicked out of the locker room and no one would ever remember. So I have pretty much complete sympathy for the dude.
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Post by Starshine on Apr 22, 2021 7:49:34 GMT -5
Having been an Indy referee/manager/wrestler and knowing locker room etiquette I have no sympathy whatsoever. He went in there with an ego mindset thinking he was the next ECW star, he disrespected veterans in the locker room by bragging about himself, lighting up a cigarette in front of Taz who loathes smoking, and asked a seasoned wrestler if he could get offense in when he was told already that he was just a fall guy. That is a big no no. Then he asked for New Jack to cut him, granted he probably wasn’t well aware of New Jack’s fighting nature but he asked for it. And also him and his father disrespected Tiny and his brother who were the ones who got them there and vouched for him. He lied about his age on top of all this. He did not belong there in the first place enough said. It should have been very obvious at that point, though, that the dude had no idea what he was into and the wrestlers and Heyman should have acted accordingly instead of having the dude get maimed. It's not like if Scott Hall or someone came in and started doing all that and got his ass beat--in that case you have a guy who should know better. In a sense they even gave him what he wanted and made him a name we still refer to in 2021 and not a total nobody who got kicked out of the locker room and no one would ever remember. So I have pretty much complete sympathy for the dude. Also just imagine any legit work environment arguing that; “you see he disrespected our employees so we needed to teach him a lesson, and he deserved to get beaten and cut.”
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Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on Apr 22, 2021 7:53:46 GMT -5
I'm not sure I understand the question. What am I basing it on that 17 is old enough to understand that doing something dangerous without proper training, is even more dangerous? If that's the question then I'm basing it on the fact that he was one year shy from being legally an adult. It makes no sense to say that someone all of a sudden is going to magically have the mental capacity to be held accountable for being a dumbass once their 18th birthday hits. Considering how the human brain develops, there is a pretty significant difference between 17 and 18. We're talking about the ages where development into adulthood happens but isn't quite there. If it was the night before his 18th birthday, then yeah there wouldn't be much of a difference. But between your 17th birthday and your 18th birthday, there's some specific maturation that occurs. In my mind the issue comes from just how obvious the danger was. This isn't "I used a fake ID to go to a seedy bar" where it's not immediately clear why doing so is a dangerous thing to do. This is "I lied about my age and degree of training in order to take part in something that's already dangerous for those WITH training". The first one there's a solid chance that nothing bad actually comes of it, but anybody with two functioning brain cells could see the danger in the second one. I get it that the human brain still develops quite a bit from 17-18, but this still seems like quite a stretch to me, and I think you're giving 17 year olds WAY too little credit.
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Post by celtics543 on Apr 22, 2021 8:10:39 GMT -5
I can't believe how much of a break New Jack is getting in this thread. I'm a teacher and if some new guy walked into my school, lied about his credentials to get a substitute teaching job, and disrespected the real teachers there no one is going to beat the guy up and cut him so bad he nearly bleeds to death. A lot of people in this thread giving the "well, that's just who New Jack is.." argument and I'm sorry but that's ridiculous. The guy is a menace and I'm not sure how he even had a job in pro wrestling. He tried to legit murder Vic Grimes in the ring and almost did murder this kid.
In another thread I was just reading people were freaking out because JR miscalled a Spinebuster. There seems to be more anger at him in that thread than for New Jack in this one. The blame lies with New Jack entirely. He's in charge out in the ring and he's the one that acted like a homicidal maniac instead of a professional. Heyman should have known better, the kid's dad should have known better, and the kid should have known better, but there's no reason any of them should have believed that his opponent would act like a maniac out there. It's not just New Jack being New Jack, it's New Jack being a dick. There's a reason no respectable pro wrestler ever wanted to get in the ring with New Jack or help New Jack get into the WWE or WCW. He's an awful garbage wrestler who hurts people on purpose if he doesn't like them. He's literally the worst kind of person.
Even worse is that he only took liberties with people who couldn't defend themselves. If he's in the ring with a legit tough guy then he's not hurting him. New Jack was a great character but he never should have even sniffed the wrestling business because of how unprofessional and dangerous he was.
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Apr 22, 2021 8:11:00 GMT -5
I would have just called him 'Ass Transit' and thrown him out of the ring.
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Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on Apr 22, 2021 8:32:12 GMT -5
I can't believe how much of a break New Jack is getting in this thread. I'm a teacher and if some new guy walked into my school, lied about his credentials to get a substitute teaching job, and disrespected the real teachers there no one is going to beat the guy up and cut him so bad he nearly bleeds to death. A lot of people in this thread giving the "well, that's just who New Jack is.." argument and I'm sorry but that's ridiculous. The guy is a menace and I'm not sure how he even had a job in pro wrestling. He tried to legit murder Vic Grimes in the ring and almost did murder this kid. In another thread I was just reading people were freaking out because JR miscalled a Spinebuster. There seems to be more anger at him in that thread than for New Jack in this one. The blame lies with New Jack entirely. He's in charge out in the ring and he's the one that acted like a homicidal maniac instead of a professional. Heyman should have known better, the kid's dad should have known better, and the kid should have known better, but there's no reason any of them should have believed that his opponent would act like a maniac out there. It's not just New Jack being New Jack, it's New Jack being a dick. There's a reason no respectable pro wrestler ever wanted to get in the ring with New Jack or help New Jack get into the WWE or WCW. He's an awful garbage wrestler who hurts people on purpose if he doesn't like them. He's literally the worst kind of person. Even worse is that he only took liberties with people who couldn't defend themselves. If he's in the ring with a legit tough guy then he's not hurting him. New Jack was a great character but he never should have even sniffed the wrestling business because of how unprofessional and dangerous he was. In my mind it’s not that we’re “giving him a pass” for the most part. In my estimate it just goes without saying that New Jack’s behavior was wrong, so we’re discussing another part of the incident.
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Post by smokinvokoun86 on Apr 22, 2021 8:58:45 GMT -5
I do feel some sympathy. He certainly didn’t deserve to be hurt that badly. He did lie and that was his fault. Being 17 doesn’t excuse that for me. But his father really failed him here. New Jack is a scumbag and Paul Heyman let him in the ring. But the father could have put a stop to the whole thing by not letting his son do this. It never happens if he was a responsible parent.
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Post by sungod2020 on Apr 22, 2021 10:09:11 GMT -5
I can't believe how much of a break New Jack is getting in this thread. I'm a teacher and if some new guy walked into my school, lied about his credentials to get a substitute teaching job, and disrespected the real teachers there no one is going to beat the guy up and cut him so bad he nearly bleeds to death. A lot of people in this thread giving the "well, that's just who New Jack is.." argument and I'm sorry but that's ridiculous. The guy is a menace and I'm not sure how he even had a job in pro wrestling. He tried to legit murder Vic Grimes in the ring and almost did murder this kid. In another thread I was just reading people were freaking out because JR miscalled a Spinebuster. There seems to be more anger at him in that thread than for New Jack in this one. The blame lies with New Jack entirely. He's in charge out in the ring and he's the one that acted like a homicidal maniac instead of a professional. Heyman should have known better, the kid's dad should have known better, and the kid should have known better, but there's no reason any of them should have believed that his opponent would act like a maniac out there. It's not just New Jack being New Jack, it's New Jack being a dick. There's a reason no respectable pro wrestler ever wanted to get in the ring with New Jack or help New Jack get into the WWE or WCW. He's an awful garbage wrestler who hurts people on purpose if he doesn't like them. He's literally the worst kind of person. Even worse is that he only took liberties with people who couldn't defend themselves. If he's in the ring with a legit tough guy then he's not hurting him. New Jack was a great character but he never should have even sniffed the wrestling business because of how unprofessional and dangerous he was. I don't recall anybody here excusing New Jack, in fact, several people here even said he took things too far. Yes, he did have control over what he was doing, but there were other factors that could've prevented this from happening. That's why he's behind Transit's dad/Paul Heyman on the blame list. The shark-invested seas analogy someone gave was a perfect example.
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Apr 22, 2021 10:19:14 GMT -5
Might be a digression but I think it's telling that carving a 17 year old kid with an exacto knife like a thanksgiving turkey if far from the nost f***ed up thing New Jack has done.
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Ultimo Gallos
Grimlock
Dreams SUCK!Nightmares live FOREVER!
Posts: 14,400
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Post by Ultimo Gallos on Apr 22, 2021 11:12:32 GMT -5
But by 17 he is old enough to think for himself. Hell I was 17 when I signed up for the Army. The military goes after recruits that young BECAUSE they can't think for themselves yet. They want people to take orders, not make informed decisions. But see you missed my point. I was thinking for myself at 17. Hell I was pretty much living on my own by then. Working,paying bills and all that. I choose to join the Army cause I knew I wasn't ready for college and figured what the hell I give them 4 years and I will come out with a skill. Which is what I did. Not every 17 year old is able to do this yes. But you assuming all of them can't is a fallacy. Also at least back when I was in the Army didn't just want mindless robots that followed orders. We were taught to assess the situation and make a decision. The state I live in until the comission was disbanded a few years ago you had to be 18 to wrestle. But since the comission never came to shows there was piles of teens 15 thru 17 wrestling. Was a show I went to where this 15 year old had a match and it was horrible. He botched the same move 3 times in a row. The guy he was facing had been wrestling for close to 5 years,grabbed the kid pulled him in close said something to him. Then did the move the kid had botched.
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Apr 22, 2021 11:24:58 GMT -5
I do feel some sympathy. He certainly didn’t deserve to be hurt that badly. He did lie and that was his fault. Being 17 doesn’t excuse that for me. But his father really failed him here. New Jack is a scumbag and Paul Heyman let him in the ring. But the father could have put a stop to the whole thing by not letting his son do this. It never happens if he was a responsible parent. Pretty much my thoughts, but with more kind descriptors of New Jack and Heyman than I would have used.
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Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on Apr 22, 2021 12:01:28 GMT -5
Might be a digression but I think it's telling that carving a 17 year old kid with an exacto knife like a thanksgiving turkey if far from the nost f***ed up thing New Jack has done. It's either Gypsy Joe or stabbing that idiot in Florida for me. The Florida one is especially dumb because by this point EVERYONE knew that New Jack is a loose cannon, and the guy still decided to shoot on him. It's not like Gypsy Joe who was just not selling, and giving New Jack a receipt for being stiff earlier in the match, but this idiot Hunter Red actually fired the first shot. Like stabbing him was uncalled for but poke a bear and watch what happens.
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Apr 22, 2021 12:27:57 GMT -5
Might be a digression but I think it's telling that carving a 17 year old kid with an exacto knife like a thanksgiving turkey if far from the nost f***ed up thing New Jack has done. It's either Gypsy Joe or stabbing that idiot in Florida for me. The Florida one is especially dumb because by this point EVERYONE knew that New Jack is a loose cannon, and the guy still decided to shoot on him. It's not like Gypsy Joe who was just not selling, and giving New Jack a receipt for being stiff earlier in the match, but this idiot Hunter Red actually fired the first shot. Like stabbing him was uncalled for but poke a bear and watch what happens. I'd say the worst thing he ever did would obviously be trying to kill Vic Grimes. Even worse, it was a "receipt" for something that, when you review the tapes, was entirely New Jack's own damn fault.
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Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on Apr 22, 2021 12:31:52 GMT -5
It's either Gypsy Joe or stabbing that idiot in Florida for me. The Florida one is especially dumb because by this point EVERYONE knew that New Jack is a loose cannon, and the guy still decided to shoot on him. It's not like Gypsy Joe who was just not selling, and giving New Jack a receipt for being stiff earlier in the match, but this idiot Hunter Red actually fired the first shot. Like stabbing him was uncalled for but poke a bear and watch what happens. I'd say the worst thing he ever did would obviously be trying to kill Vic Grimes. Even worse, it was a "receipt" for something that, when you review the tapes, was entirely New Jack's own damn fault. I mean the Florida thing is also CLEARLY attempted murder. He stabbed a man 9 times.
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Apr 22, 2021 12:33:45 GMT -5
I'd say the worst thing he ever did would obviously be trying to kill Vic Grimes. Even worse, it was a "receipt" for something that, when you review the tapes, was entirely New Jack's own damn fault. I mean the Florida thing is also CLEARLY attempted murder. He stabbed a man 9 times. This is true.
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Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on Apr 22, 2021 12:35:37 GMT -5
I mean the Florida thing is also CLEARLY attempted murder. He stabbed a man 9 times. This is true. Granted at that point it's like comparing the credit scores of Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos. It's pretty much a moot point.
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Post by Mr Mario Mario on Apr 22, 2021 14:32:20 GMT -5
Complete
I don’t really care how stupid he was or how much of an attitude he had in all honesty because 17 is still a kid in my eyes. This kid was stupid yes but he was badly let down by people who were old enough to know better such as his father & Paul Heyman
And how New Jack was allowed to exist in the wrestling business at all just sums up how scummy the business can truly be. The guy was an out and out psycho
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Post by jason1980s on Apr 22, 2021 14:57:34 GMT -5
And how New Jack was allowed to exist in the wrestling business at all just sums up how scummy the business can truly be. The guy was an out and out psycho ECW was full of a lot of guys who would never made it nor could never make it in WCW or WWE and a promoter who is one of the best con artists who ever lived so he could get to the put their bodies and lives on the line for him. So that's how a guy like New Jack could exist, in a company like ECW and when ECW folded unfortunately New Jack was a nostalgia act. Maybe a horrible act and a sick person but there was nostalgia there. Every person deserves blame but the least should go to the kid. He's the kid who play wrestled with his friends but somehow thought this was a good idea when it was anything but. I'm sure many kids during that time period would have jumped at the chance to wrestler for a real company. It's really just horrible luck that he did it when he did and where he did.
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Post by dirtyoldman on Apr 22, 2021 15:43:22 GMT -5
Did Vince ever consider New Jack? At the back of my head there's something of a rumour I vaguely remember with John Cena during his early days with the US title (before he became a main eventer).
Was there also a character called Jesus at the time or am I making stuff up?
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Post by kingoftheindies on Apr 22, 2021 15:45:25 GMT -5
I'm always curious how this didn't hurt Heyman more reputation wise. I know there are a lot of slimy promoters out there but for someone like Paul Heyman to book a kid who he had no idea who they were in a match against one of the most popular acts in the company at the time? Huge red flag. Especially with how ambitious he was and knowing how so many people were waiting to pull the plug on ECW.
And yeah the kid's dad should have actually been a parent in that decision.
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