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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2021 10:48:11 GMT -5
I can't believe how much of a break New Jack is getting in this thread. I'm a teacher and if some new guy walked into my school, lied about his credentials to get a substitute teaching job, and disrespected the real teachers there no one is going to beat the guy up and cut him so bad he nearly bleeds to death. A lot of people in this thread giving the "well, that's just who New Jack is.." argument and I'm sorry but that's ridiculous. The guy is a menace and I'm not sure how he even had a job in pro wrestling. He tried to legit murder Vic Grimes in the ring and almost did murder this kid. In another thread I was just reading people were freaking out because JR miscalled a Spinebuster. There seems to be more anger at him in that thread than for New Jack in this one. The blame lies with New Jack entirely. He's in charge out in the ring and he's the one that acted like a homicidal maniac instead of a professional. Heyman should have known better, the kid's dad should have known better, and the kid should have known better, but there's no reason any of them should have believed that his opponent would act like a maniac out there. It's not just New Jack being New Jack, it's New Jack being a dick. There's a reason no respectable pro wrestler ever wanted to get in the ring with New Jack or help New Jack get into the WWE or WCW. He's an awful garbage wrestler who hurts people on purpose if he doesn't like them. He's literally the worst kind of person. Even worse is that he only took liberties with people who couldn't defend themselves. If he's in the ring with a legit tough guy then he's not hurting him. New Jack was a great character but he never should have even sniffed the wrestling business because of how unprofessional and dangerous he was. I definitely didn't mean to give New Jack a break or a pass myself, just that he was the known commodity in all of this, so when you're assessing "fault," it's hard to "blame" him in the traditional sense. He was the effect more than the cause, here, in my opinion. I disagree with any implication that 1996 New Jack didn't have a dangerous reputation yet. Sure, he didn't quite have the reputation of "has literally tried to murder multiple opponents in the middle of matches," but he was still known as a dangerous, garbage worker. His behavior is bad, and unacceptable, but he's never exactly hidden the fact that he usually had dangerous and violent matches, particularly when he doesn't respect his opponent. So, I just think that the father not only allowing his 17-year-old untrained son to get in the ring with a guy like that, but affirmatively lying for him to make it happen, probably should bear the brunt of the "blame" for the situation. I don't think that a 17-year-old is a clueless child incapable of making his own decisions, but at the same time, you're still pretty impulsive at age 17 and don't necessarily consider the repercussions of stuff like lying your way into a garbage match with New Jack. The father should have.
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Post by Kyle Butler on Apr 23, 2021 10:48:21 GMT -5
From a Body Building forum posted in 2005. "Although the WWE was interested in New Jack, there were a number of conflicts that stood in the way of the two reaching a deal. One of the issues involved New Jack reportedly complaining to road agents about something related to working with Val Venis. Turns out New Jack had an afternoon tryout in-ring (before the fans were let in) with Val prior to a RAW taping, and didn't like that Val tried to actually wrestle and do some chain sequences."" If the Mass Transit incident taught us anything, it’s that if New Jack hated Val, Val’s pee pee was in serious danger of REALLY getting choppy choppied. Dude was handy with a scalpel
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Apr 23, 2021 10:59:48 GMT -5
They considered using New Jack as the guy who stabbed John Cena but they called him in for a practice match with Val Venis and he could barely even lock up properly so they didn't bother with him. Definitely for the best. See, I understand that he could have been on something or has enough brain damage that it inhibited his ability to wrestle or was simply being a prick but New Jack was trained by Brad Rhenigans and actually wrestled using holds in Smokey Mountain Wrestling. Lance Storm even said he was much better in the ring than you'd expect. That is true. I mean I'd imagine the brain damage he suffered when he dragged a falling Vic Crimes on top of him probably messed quite bit with how he handles things.
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Post by sungod2020 on Apr 23, 2021 11:28:26 GMT -5
They considered using New Jack as the guy who stabbed John Cena but they called him in for a practice match with Val Venis and he could barely even lock up properly so they didn't bother with him. Definitely for the best. See, I understand that he could have been on something or has enough brain damage that it inhibited his ability to wrestle or was simply being a prick but New Jack was trained by Brad Rhenigans and actually wrestled using holds in Smokey Mountain Wrestling. Lance Storm even said he was much better in the ring than you'd expect. Just out of curiousity, is there any video footage out there of New Jack wrestling in a match that isn't hardcore? I'd like to see it.
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Post by dirtyoldman on Apr 23, 2021 13:18:09 GMT -5
Was it in the after dark program with dreamer that he told the story how they during a match started doing lock ups and hip tosses and other proper wrestling when Jack whispered to Tommy "I'm gassed! Hit me with a chair"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2021 23:42:56 GMT -5
See, I understand that he could have been on something or has enough brain damage that it inhibited his ability to wrestle or was simply being a prick but New Jack was trained by Brad Rhenigans and actually wrestled using holds in Smokey Mountain Wrestling. Lance Storm even said he was much better in the ring than you'd expect. Just out of curiousity, is there any video footage out there of New Jack wrestling in a match that isn't hardcore? I'd like to see it. m.youtube.com/watch?v=yK-_Qrg-JEs&t=348sGangstas vs. Rock and Roll Express He doesn't do anything revolutionary but he knows the basics, can sell, and has an aura about him.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Apr 24, 2021 4:06:41 GMT -5
1. He was a minor. He absolutely is not at fault for this. Just because he was a big lad and convincing enough, he was still a kid. If any of you know a 16 year old wrestling fan, you Will now how scary that is. Having worked professionally with thay age group, I am completely disgusted with ECW for this.
2. This is gross, gross, gross negligence by ECW. Falsified his documentation my ass. Frankly I am amazed this hasn't happened more.
3. Absolutely nobody deserves what happens to them in the ring with New Jack. Possible exception of of guy who evidently booked himself getting knifed by Jack?
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Post by Mozenrath on Apr 24, 2021 4:15:54 GMT -5
They considered using New Jack as the guy who stabbed John Cena but they called him in for a practice match with Val Venis and he could barely even lock up properly so they didn't bother with him. Definitely for the best. See, I understand that he could have been on something or has enough brain damage that it inhibited his ability to wrestle or was simply being a prick but New Jack was trained by Brad Rhenigans and actually wrestled using holds in Smokey Mountain Wrestling. Lance Storm even said he was much better in the ring than you'd expect. Yeah, I could see it being some kind of brain damage, or other serious injuries meaning he couldn't really work properly anymore by then, or maybe he bought his own hype enough to where he said f*** it.
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Post by cornettesracket on Apr 24, 2021 4:30:15 GMT -5
None really. And that lack of sympathy extends to the wrestler who vouched for him as being a wrestler with training. Then his father knowingly let his son into a wrestling ring even though he wasn’t of legal age to do so. Then there’s his alleged bad attitude that he had backstage which isn’t a good idea in general, but why would you piss off new jack and then let him blade you ? Yes, new jack is no saint by any metric known to man but he gets a pass on this incident.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Apr 24, 2021 5:29:52 GMT -5
None really. And that lack of sympathy extends to the wrestler who vouched for him as being a wrestler with training. Then his father knowingly let his son into a wrestling ring even though he wasn’t of legal age to do so. Then there’s his alleged bad attitude that he had backstage which isn’t a good idea in general, but why would you piss off new jack and then let him blade you ? Yes, new jack is no saint by any metric known to man but he gets a pass on this incident. And ECW then put this guy none of their name guys know, nobody in management knows, that they have never seen wrestle in any capacity that has walked around being a prick in a match with a guy with a notoriously short fuse. In any other line of work, if someone greenlit a guy starting a dangerous job without checking their references or training, they would be blamed and fired, and rightly so. 'Look, I know we let that guy that walked in off the street that everyone hated start working a forklift, but he said he could do it, and Bob from the mailroom said 'Sure, I know the guy', how were we to know he's lying? It's not like we could check or that people underestimate the dangers of a working environment they have little to no experience in to try and get a foot in the door!' People have broken their necks running the ropes, he was a minor and ECW made no real attempt to check he can do the job safely so they were negligent. They had a duty to check to take care of everyone in that ring so they could be sure he wasn't going to drop people on their necks, but they didn't bother as Heyman didn't give a damn about the wellbeing of his talent.
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Apr 24, 2021 7:35:11 GMT -5
Adults should have known better. Kids are stupid. I can’t pretend he’s not somewhat responsible for what happened. But Heyman basically allowed an untrained clearly out of shape kid to get mauled by a guy who’s batshit crazy.
I was second row for this show and somehow wasn’t watching when the kid got cut, heard him scream and saw him in a puddle of red.
Thought it was really cool, I was 17 years old too.
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Post by EP 54 is banned from Collision on Apr 24, 2021 7:45:41 GMT -5
I have sympathy for everyone who has ever stepped in the ring with notorious psycho-asshole New Jack.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Apr 24, 2021 7:47:48 GMT -5
From a Body Building forum posted in 2005. "Although the WWE was interested in New Jack, there were a number of conflicts that stood in the way of the two reaching a deal. One of the issues involved New Jack reportedly complaining to road agents about something related to working with Val Venis. Turns out New Jack had an afternoon tryout in-ring (before the fans were let in) with Val prior to a RAW taping, and didn't like that Val tried to actually wrestle and do some chain sequences."" If the Mass Transit incident taught us anything, it’s that if New Jack hated Val, Val’s pee pee was in serious danger of REALLY getting choppy choppied. Dude was handy with a scalpel Could hardly happen to a nicer guy, judging by much Val has really shown his ass these last few years.
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Post by Natural Born Farmer on Apr 24, 2021 8:02:13 GMT -5
Lie to get in the ring when you aren’t trained, you’re already taking your chances with your life and someone else’s.
Do it to get in the ring with New Jack, you’re just a f***ing moron.
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Post by jason1980s on Apr 24, 2021 9:56:05 GMT -5
Adults should have known better. Kids are stupid. I can’t pretend he’s not somewhat responsible for what happened. But Heyman basically allowed an untrained clearly out of shape kid to get mauled by a guy who’s batshit crazy. I was second row for this show and somehow wasn’t watching when the kid got cut, heard him scream and saw him in a puddle of red. Thought it was really cool, I was 17 years old too. I hate to say but I probably would have thought the same thing-cool not knowing the severity of the situation. And I'm sure many ECW fans thought the same thing-this is awesome. I wasn't a huge ECW fan but I enjoyed it, not so much the hardcore just the whole anti-establishment part. But now as an adult, a little younger than you, I realize how sick this promotion was. And that's one of the reasons that the old timers just need to let the promotion die for good.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Apr 24, 2021 10:21:06 GMT -5
I think it's worth reminding people what the person ECW believed was an adult and a fully trained wrestler actually looked like. That's a kid, a large kid, but a kid all the same. If someone told me he was an experienced adult, I'd call BS and ask for more references rather than just taking the word of some guy who doesn't work there and his dad.
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El Pollo Guerrera
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Post by El Pollo Guerrera on Apr 24, 2021 12:13:34 GMT -5
1) had Mass Transit never heard of ECW before this incident? ECW was known for having garbage matches, tons of violence and blood, chairs, tables, everything. He could have been put into the ring with Sandman, Balls, or Sabu... any one of those would have ended up with him being expected to bleed. Yes, the blading was excessive (and I do blame New Jack for that) but MT should have known what he was trying to get in to.
2) many have been saying 17 is too young... Terry Gordy was 14 when he started. Kenny Doane (Dykstra) started at 15 and was in the WWE when he was 17. Paige was 13. Rey Mysterio Jr was 14. Jeff Hardy was 17 when he and Matt started OMEGA. I think that his age should be less of a factor in this question.
3) the story I heard about the New Jack stabbing was that it was a match with a rookie, and before the match New Jack told him not to hit him on the left side of his head (to protect his left eye, he's been blind in the right eye since the Danbury Fall). First thing the rookie does in the match is punch Jack in his left eye. So NJ gets mad... and yes stabbing the guy 20 times is beyond reasonable but I don't blame Jack for getting mad.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2021 12:41:53 GMT -5
None...
I think when I first heard this story, I thought his death was a result of injuries he got during the match. Yeah I would have sympathy then.
The way I look at it my son is 17. I was 17, twenty years ago. Thinking about all the hoops they had to jump through and get a friend in the business to lie for them. To agree to have a guy cut you.. this wasn’t some fan being pulled out of the crowd. These guys knew what they were getting into. It just sucks the blade went to far deep, but it was a nasty incident, they probably should have got him out of the ring earlier that’s it. But that’s why New Jack was cleared of criminal charges and the family wasn’t able to sue him.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Apr 24, 2021 13:37:44 GMT -5
1) had Mass Transit never heard of ECW before this incident? ECW was known for having garbage matches, tons of violence and blood, chairs, tables, everything. He could have been put into the ring with Sandman, Balls, or Sabu... any one of those would have ended up with him being expected to bleed. Yes, the blading was excessive (and I do blame New Jack for that) but MT should have known what he was trying to get in to. 2) many have been saying 17 is too young... Terry Gordy was 14 when he started. Kenny Diane (Dykstra) started at 15 and was in the WWE when he was 17. Paige was 13. Rey Mysterio Jr was 14. Jeff Hardy was 17 when he and Matt started OMEGA. I think that his age should be less of a factor in this question. 3) the story I heard about the New Jack stabbing was that it was a match with a rookie, and before the match New Jack told him not to hit him on the left side of his head (to protect his left eye, he's been blind in the right eye since the Danbury Fall). First thing the rookie does in the match is punch Jack in his left eye. So NJ gets mad... and yes stabbing the guy 20 times is beyond reasonable but I don't blame Jack for getting mad. The WWE changed their hiring policies as they realised that hiring teenagers was a horrible idea as they lacked the emotional maturity to deal with for a major promotion and kept burning out. They hired Randy as a teen, he developed a horrible attitude and they had to change their drug test rules to avoid firing him. Brock developed a horrible attitude and burned out because he was unprepared for the schedule, bumping and the backstage drama. Paige? Hired as a teen, got hurt and went completely off the rails for a while because she wasn't mature enough to deal with the life. Teddy Hart? His track Record speaks for itself, as does Jeff Hardy's for that matter. Harry Smith? Failed drug tests repeatedly and even now maintains pumping his body full of crap is harmless... And so on. FCW was DUI central for years because you had people not mature enough to wrestle drinking to dull the pain of a sport, that again, they were not equipped to deal with because in many cases, they were not adults going into it. That's without going into the long,long list of children of promoters who started as teens and had their lives ruined as a result. 17 is not mature enough to be in the ring in the majority of cases, nevermind in a ring of a major promotion known for weapon shots and blood, untrained working a match with New Jack.
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Post by sungod2020 on Apr 25, 2021 16:32:13 GMT -5
None really. And that lack of sympathy extends to the wrestler who vouched for him as being a wrestler with training. Then his father knowingly let his son into a wrestling ring even though he wasn’t of legal age to do so. Then there’s his alleged bad attitude that he had backstage which isn’t a good idea in general, but why would you piss off new jack and then let him blade you ? Yes, new jack is no saint by any metric known to man but he gets a pass on this incident. And ECW then put this guy none of their name guys know, nobody in management knows, that they have never seen wrestle in any capacity that has walked around being a prick in a match with a guy with a notoriously short fuse.In any other line of work, if someone greenlit a guy starting a dangerous job without checking their references or training, they would be blamed and fired, and rightly so. 'Look, I know we let that guy that walked in off the street that everyone hated start working a forklift, but he said he could do it, and Bob from the mailroom said 'Sure, I know the guy', how were we to know he's lying? It's not like we could check or that people underestimate the dangers of a working environment they have little to no experience in to try and get a foot in the door!' People have broken their necks running the ropes, he was a minor and ECW made no real attempt to check he can do the job safely so they were negligent. They had a duty to check to take care of everyone in that ring so they could be sure he wasn't going to drop people on their necks, but they didn't bother as Heyman didn't give a damn about the wellbeing of his talent. Not that we can count it as experience, but I think I read somewhere he wrestled in carnivals with midgets in what was intended to be comedy matches. Maybe that's why he was able to get the midget wrestler vouch for him. Still not an excuse for things to go down the way it did, but there was a prior backstory to this.
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