Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,224
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 21, 2021 11:45:28 GMT -5
That Vince killed the territories. Most of them were already dead, or dying when the expansion was happening. WCCW top stars were all dying young. Imagine if Hogan,Savage and Piper all had overdoses within a 2 year period in the mid 80's would have killed off WWF. No company could have survived Right. UWF dying due to Watts becoming exhausted running the company and creatively bankrupt also took out another major player. Crockett buying up companies to get their syndication deals, only to find it much less lucrative than it had been for Vince, also helped complete the destruction of the territory system that much faster. It's also bloat his roster, drive operating costs up, and leave the bookers having to try to figure out what to do with all of these new people, which would seal Crockett's fate and bring Turner into the business, even further squeezing out room for anyone else to block Vince's expansion, though by then, I guess that battle was done.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 28,029
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Post by chazraps on Dec 21, 2021 11:54:19 GMT -5
Paul Heyman got Al Snow over as a main eventer. Not really. He turned him into a hot comedy act and then threw him into a main event angle he really had no business being in. This isn't quite accurate. The "Al Snow with Head" character wasn't just a comedy act, beyond the face-value oral sex joke was how Snow's character was meant to emulate rave culture during its particular hot point in early 1998. Nobody was more over than him at that time, and revisiting the week-to-week Hardcore TV shows that. The main event program's shortcomings were to Shane Douglas having his body in absolute shambles. He was already looking rough at November to Remember 97, and month by month while the promos were still there the matches all deflated. No idea why Paul didn't just take the belt off him at any point during all of this, it's the weakest point of what's otherwise a very strong year for the company.
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thecrusherwi
El Dandy
the Financially Responsible Man
Brawl For All
Posts: 7,663
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Post by thecrusherwi on Dec 21, 2021 12:08:00 GMT -5
As discussed in another thread, "Dusty Rhodes was a joke in the WWF." No, he wasn't. The polka dots may have been silly, but they didn't hurt him, and the "Common Man" was arguably the #3 babyface behind Hogan and Warrior. His main programs were with Boss Man, Savage, and Dibiase. It's not like they had him struggling with Dino Bravo and Greg Valentine every night. No disrespect to those guys, but they were clearly lower on the card. Dusty was absolutely the number 3 babyface. Hogan, Warrior, Dusty, and Dibiase were the only guys to captain Survivor Series teams in both 1989 and 1990. That's a big indicator of your spot on the card. Up until that Dibiase feud, when Vince likely already knew Dusty was leaving to go to WCW in a non-wrestling role, Dusty was very well protected. And got some big wins. Getting a pinfall win over heel Big Bossman on PPV might not sound like much, but even Hogan didn't get a pinfall win over Bossman on national TV. I think a narrative that I see that I would consider false is the level of staleness of babyface Hulk Hogan in WCW prior to the NWO. Creatively, it might not have been everyone's cup of tea, but Hogan's arrival really ramped up WCW's business and they were breaking all kinds of gate and PPV revenue records. A lot of us hardcore fans might have preferred WCW before Hogan came in, but a hell of a lot more people were tuning in to watch Hogan and friends battle the Faces of Fear than were to see Vader vs Sting or Flair vs Steamboat Part IV.
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Post by Andee9001 on Dec 21, 2021 12:52:37 GMT -5
That Triple H buried Scott Steiner. In the buildup and their rumble match he bumped and sold like a pro for Scott and tried to make him look like a beast.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2021 13:16:40 GMT -5
That the IWC exists...
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Post by James Fabiano on Dec 21, 2021 13:22:04 GMT -5
As discussed in another thread, "Dusty Rhodes was a joke in the WWF." No, he wasn't. The polka dots may have been silly, but they didn't hurt him, and the "Common Man" was arguably the #3 babyface behind Hogan and Warrior. His main programs were with Boss Man, Savage, and Dibiase. It's not like they had him struggling with Dino Bravo and Greg Valentine every night. No disrespect to those guys, but they were clearly lower on the card. Oddly enough, his biggest push was with the dots. When he went back to plain Dusty was when he lost a lot (DiBiase, Sarge...I think even Virgil has a win over him?) They didn't Red Rooster him, i.e. give him a silly gimmick then make him just a jobber. It's like LOD in the WWF. They were basically made WWF style superheroes, yes, but were still dominant and rarely lost on TV (heck, they didn't lose the tag team titles on TV). Now when Rocco came in was a bit silly of course. And don't get us started on 1998.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Dec 21, 2021 13:31:10 GMT -5
That these days the "majority" is another group of fans bigger than the IWC. When its the other way around because who isn't on the internet and talking wrestling these days? When you look at the all around wrestling landscape. If the majority was not the IWC I'm sure AEW wouldn't have had the success out of the gate that it did. Since most of what they did was through the Internet.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Dec 21, 2021 13:33:14 GMT -5
That just in the nick of time the referee fake-counted three to stop Daniel Puder from humiliating and ruining Kurt Angle with his MMA skills.
The definition of "shoulder" in a wrestling match is pretty ambiguous, but I have watched this thing several times and dude's shoulders are down. (If we're going pro wrestling rules, I have absolutely seen that exact position get people pinned. If we're going amateur rules, three full seconds is ridiculous and Angle absolutely had both shoulder blades down for enough time.) Kurt Angle himself said as much, on camera directly afterwards, he got in Puder's face and said something like, "What's wrong with you, this is a wrestling match, and you went right over onto your back?"
It'd be a good story, revenge against all the abuse and hazing... though I think most people seized on it at the time because of the MMA > pro wrestling thing. But it ain't so.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2021 13:37:42 GMT -5
That these days the "majority" is another group of fans bigger than the IWC. When its the other way around because who isn't on the internet and talking wrestling these days? When you look at the all around wrestling landscape. If the majority was not the IWC I'm sure AEW wouldn't have had the success out of the gate that it did. Since most of what they did was through the Internet. I just assume that the IWC has transitioned (for many people, at any rate) to mean the stereotypical smarks that discuss backstage stuff, work rate, shoot interviews, etc that a "normal" fan wouldn't instead of just a catch-all for all Internet fans.
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Dec 21, 2021 13:41:33 GMT -5
That Triple H buried Scott Steiner. In the buildup and their rumble match he bumped and sold like a pro for Scott and tried to make him look like a beast. Yeah, he let himself be humiliated in those posedown/arm-wrestling segments. It was all very midcard comedy stuff though for what should have been a major world title feud between two badasses. I recall him getting stripped down to his underwear for some reason too and the announcers making fun of him for wearing a thong which was supposed to be embarrassing for a guy which was funny because then a week or two later at the Rumble Steiner's pants were sliding down (did anything go right for him that night?) and he was wearing one too. During the match HHH gets his ass kicked, DQ's himself to keep the title then gets beaten up after the match and is left a bloody mess. The GM Bischoff and a bunch of referees had to run out and pull Steiner off of him he was beating him so bad. On paper Steiner should've looked like a monster but it just didn't work because the crowd was pissed. They started off neutral too so it wasn't a lost cause but with every move Steiner botched they just turned on him more and more.
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Post by sungod2020 on Dec 21, 2021 14:05:08 GMT -5
That these days the "majority" is another group of fans bigger than the IWC. When its the other way around because who isn't on the internet and talking wrestling these days? When you look at the all around wrestling landscape. If the majority was not the IWC I'm sure AEW wouldn't have had the success out of the gate that it did. Since most of what they did was through the Internet. This probably held true in the Attitude Era and well into the Ruthless Aggression era, but these days, I feel it's safe to say the IWC IS the majority. Nobody I know in my everyday life follows modern WWE(not even myself) or are vaguely familiar(I am but only through these forums) with the present day landscape. Also, with twitter, instagram, and 1000 videos on youtube discussing in great detail why current WWE sucks, it's pretty much impossible these days NOT to get sucked into the smarks galaxy. So yes, post-Attitude, wrestling has evolved (back) into a niche product.
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Dec 21, 2021 14:05:21 GMT -5
That these days the "majority" is another group of fans bigger than the IWC. When its the other way around because who isn't on the internet and talking wrestling these days? When you look at the all around wrestling landscape. If the majority was not the IWC I'm sure AEW wouldn't have had the success out of the gate that it did. Since most of what they did was through the Internet. I just assume that the IWC has transitioned (for many people, at any rate) to mean the stereotypical smarks that discuss backstage stuff, work rate, shoot interviews, etc that a "normal" fan wouldn't instead of just a catch-all for all Internet fans. Yeah, to me the IWC isn't literally every wrestling fan with internet access who might watch Raw and follow their favorite wrestlers on Twitter. That term is for the diehard fans who post on forums like thiS or r/squaredcircle and are extremely involved in discussing every facet of wrestling, on-screen and backstage. This is probably one of the biggest wrestling boards/forums left and it maybe has 100-200 regular posters. Squared Circle has 500,000 subscribers but probably less than 10% of those are active users. Compared to the millions combined who watch WWE/AEW/NJPW. The biggest proof that that IWC is still very much a minority? They're almost to a man sick of Roman Reigns and Becky Lynch and want them to drop the titles. Meanwhile they're the most beloved wrestlers on social media and live crowds give them huge reactions. Over 10,000 people in Chicago on Friday night chanted Roman's name and gave him a massive superstar reaction despite him wearing a shirt that was basically knocking their hometown hero CM Punk. That doesn't sound like go-away heat to me and people being sick of him like you might think was the case if you only got your info from the IWC.
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tafkaga
Samurai Cop
the Dogfather
Posts: 2,169
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Post by tafkaga on Dec 21, 2021 14:13:24 GMT -5
I think there are a lot of false narratives around WCW when it started falling off. The Fingerpoke of Doom is often pointed to as a tipping point and it may have been a huge moment, but it was still a very salvageable situation and the wheels really fell off 3-4 months later when a year of bad TV and little follow up to the Goldberg/nWo angle finally started driving viewers away. I also think Goldberg also doesn't get enough credit. Even if he had his detractors, he was still the most consistent over act in WCW for the final three years, even after the streak ended. A lot of the Monday Night Wars discourse and narratives also revolves around week to week ratings which did matter to people at the time but the gates/PPV buys played a much larger role in terms of the financial situations for each company. The ratings for WCW were largely always fine, even by the end. But the PPVs and ticket sales collapsed which made shutting it down an easier choice than it should've been. Yes. I think many don't understand that WCW was never an autonomous business like WWF/WWE was. They lived because a billionaire media tycoon thought wrestling belonged on his television networks, and they died because the billionaire media tycoon lost control of his television networks and the new powers that be had no affection for wrestling and were only interested in their bottom line. All the other names we could mention were just minor players in the story of WCW's rise and fall.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Dec 21, 2021 15:13:19 GMT -5
I just assume that the IWC has transitioned (for many people, at any rate) to mean the stereotypical smarks that discuss backstage stuff, work rate, shoot interviews, etc that a "normal" fan wouldn't instead of just a catch-all for all Internet fans. Yeah, to me the IWC isn't literally every wrestling fan with internet access who might watch Raw and follow their favorite wrestlers on Twitter. That term is for the diehard fans who post on forums like thiS or r/squaredcircle and are extremely involved in discussing every facet of wrestling, on-screen and backstage. This is probably one of the biggest wrestling boards/forums left and it maybe has 100-200 regular posters. Squared Circle has 500,000 subscribers but probably less than 10% of those are active users. Compared to the millions combined who watch WWE/AEW/NJPW. The biggest proof that that IWC is still very much a minority? They're almost to a man sick of Roman Reigns and Becky Lynch and want them to drop the titles. Meanwhile they're the most beloved wrestlers on social media and live crowds give them huge reactions. Over 10,000 people in Chicago on Friday night chanted Roman's name and gave him a massive superstar reaction despite him wearing a shirt that was basically knocking their hometown hero CM Punk. That doesn't sound like go-away heat to me and people being sick of him like you might think was the case if you only got your info from the IWC. Its a double edge sword really. Just because forums as they are not as active. Mainly because so many jumped to youtube as made videos about stuff and thousands watch them. My point is ok Smackdown had 10K fine. But what about Raw struggles? What about down ratings? I get yeah people complain about Roman but he still a hot ticket. But Adam Cole gets a loud pop everywhere he goes. CM Punk does outside of Long Island. Hook just had the massive T-shirt seller. Like I said AEW quick success was based around the stereotypical smarks. Its really hard to put into words because there is also the WWE diehard that wish bad on AEW fans. Same goes for AEW diehard wanting WWE failure. Or would laugh at what one company does. Its all IWC related. It may not be active forums because now its everywhere. Youtube, FB, Twitter and ext.
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Post by wildojinx on Dec 21, 2021 15:15:41 GMT -5
That the Sgt. Slaughter Iraqi sympathizer angle was a failure. Yes, WM7 failed to sell out the LA Coliseum so they had to move it, but at that point, the WWF boom era was starting to taper off, I dont think even Hogan/Warrior 2 could have sold out. And if you watch tv from that era, Slaughter gets NUCLEAR heat. Was it tasteless, probably, and they dragged it out too long, but he was an effective heel.
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salz4life
Grimlock
Prichard is a guy who gets that his job is to service his boss.
Posts: 14,065
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Post by salz4life on Dec 21, 2021 15:22:42 GMT -5
That Vince killed the territories. Most of them were already dead, or dying when the expansion was happening. Vince accelerated ending the territories. There was no way they were going to last, unfortunately.
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Post by chronocross on Dec 21, 2021 15:39:02 GMT -5
That Triple H buried Scott Steiner. In the buildup and their rumble match he bumped and sold like a pro for Scott and tried to make him look like a beast. Yeah, he let himself be humiliated in those posedown/arm-wrestling segments. It was all very midcard comedy stuff though for what should have been a major world title feud between two badasses. I recall him getting stripped down to his underwear for some reason too and the announcers making fun of him for wearing a thong which was supposed to be embarrassing for a guy which was funny because then a week or two later at the Rumble Steiner's pants were sliding down (did anything go right for him that night?) and he was wearing one too. During the match HHH gets his ass kicked, DQ's himself to keep the title then gets beaten up after the match and is left a bloody mess. The GM Bischoff and a bunch of referees had to run out and pull Steiner off of him he was beating him so bad. On paper Steiner should've looked like a monster but it just didn't work because the crowd was pissed. They started off neutral too so it wasn't a lost cause but with every move Steiner botched they just turned on him more and more. Yeah this was when Trips was trying to emulate Flair as Flair got stripped down to his underwear by Steamboat at one of the Clashes back in the day before their title match. If Steiner was in better health, the matches may have been a bit better.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Dec 21, 2021 15:42:11 GMT -5
That Vince killed the territories. Most of them were already dead, or dying when the expansion was happening. Vince accelerated ending the territories. There was no way they were going to last, unfortunately. and as stated earlier it's foolish to think the other territories wouldn't have done the same thing if they were able too (and several of them tried and failed)
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tafkaga
Samurai Cop
the Dogfather
Posts: 2,169
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Post by tafkaga on Dec 21, 2021 15:46:40 GMT -5
The Lex Express failed. If failing means that Lex didn't fill Hulk Hogan's shoes, I guess it failed, but considering the fact that he went from one of the most hyped heels to the #2 babyface in a couple of months based on little more than bodyslamming Yokozuna, a music video, and some vignettes of riding around in a bus, I'd say the Lex Express worked pretty well.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Dec 21, 2021 15:55:00 GMT -5
The Lex Express failed. If failing means that Lex didn't fill Hulk Hogan's shoes, I guess it failed, but considering the fact that he went from one of the most hyped heels to the #2 babyface in a couple of months based on little more than bodyslamming Yokozuna, a music video, and some vignettes of riding around in a bus, I'd say the Lex Express worked pretty well. What killed Lex as a main eventer was Vince thinking he could stretch it to mania... after already booking the "If you don't win the title that's it" stipulation for Summerslam... and then having Lex celebrate like he won the title after winning via Count Out... it made him look like an idiot.
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