False IWC Narratives....

[sungod2020]

What claims have you heard on these or other smarks forums that were taken out of context and made worse than they really were?

The Wig Segment Killing Goldberg's WWE Run - While Goldberg's one year WWE tenure has had mixed reviews, I feel it was looked at more poorly by some sections of the IWC more than it really was. On the April 14th, 2003 episode of RAW, the fighting Hebrew was paid of visit by his self-proclaimed cousin GOLDust(get it).

In that segment, the bizarre one gave him a gift, a matching blonde wig that he's known for. He even put it on his head. While appreciative, the Hall of Famer rejected it and told him never to put it on his head again. 

When I was reading the headlines at the time, I believe a journalist wrote about how bad it was and he(Goldberg) was bitching about it backstage, like he was forced to do it. While I admit it might've been a lame attempt at comedy, it was nothing more than a throwaway segment. It's not like they started teaming together, or worse, was given a makeover and had to wear that thing every time, THAT would've been bad.

If anything, he was given programs(and victories) over big names such as The Rock, Chris Jericho, Triple H, and finally Brock Lesnar, along with a three month WHC reign. Could his run have been booked better? Arguably, but he was only going to be around for one year, so they made the best of what they could in what little time he was going to be there.

That's all I have for now, anything you can think of?

[ToyfareMark]

That Vince killed the territories. Most of them were already dead, or dying when the expansion was happening.

[James Fabiano]

The Dragon's true identity was forgotten when he returned in 1991.

Sure, the nickname and fire breathing persona were the rule not the exception...but references were made to Steamboat's previous WWF stay from time to time. They even called him Steamboat on occasion. His Hasbro figure's "autograph" even is "The Dragon Ricky Steamboat," IIRC.

[Feyrhausen]

Dec 21, 2021 9:05:44 GMT -5 ToyfareMark said:

That Vince killed the territories. Most of them were already dead, or dying when the expansion was happening.

He did his best to kill the AWA as that was the one territory that came close to having the market he did.

But yeah most were still clinging to old ways of doing business that no longer worked in the new media landscape. Vince was simply the one in the best position to take advantage.

[BlackoutCreature]

Paul Heyman got Al Snow over as a main eventer.

Not really. He turned him into a hot comedy act and then threw him into a main event angle he really had no business being in.

[James Fabiano]

Katie Vick WAS awful. But if I remember a video of the original broadcast correctly, the fans actually popped for the punchline.

Then there's the really obviously wrong/unfounded stories. Like That Randy Savage rumor.

[90s IWC darling] should be pushed to the top of the card! No, not always. This happened a lot with 90s WCW. For instance, Dean Malenko was fine where he was, doing what he did. He realistically wasn't going to challenge Hogan or anything.

[sungod2020]

Dec 21, 2021 9:33:20 GMT -5 Feyrhausen said:

Dec 21, 2021 9:05:44 GMT -5 ToyfareMark said:

That Vince killed the territories. Most of them were already dead, or dying when the expansion was happening.

He did his best to kill the AWA as that was the one territory that came close to having the market he did.

But yeah most were still clinging to old ways of doing business that no longer worked in the new media landscape. Vince was simply the one in the best position to take advantage.

Plus, if Vince didn't do it, someone else would've. Also, the idea that he stole stars from the other companies under the promise they would be making MORE money and exposure as well as name recognition. As if none of us would do the same thing in their situation. God forbid those people had to feed their families. 

[Fundertaker]

Dec 21, 2021 9:05:44 GMT -5 ToyfareMark said:

That Vince killed the territories. Most of them were already dead, or dying when the expansion was happening.

Isn't that more the vision of the old guard that couldn't make it in the WWF and/or WCW?

A big one for me is "*insert big main-event guy here" can't wrestle". They can wrestle. Most of the time they don't NEED to do much at all and have the audience on the palm of their hand and have an emotional match with their opponent, instead of putting on a technical clinic and potentially deflating the crowd who probably just want to see big lumps of man hitting each other.

[Ben Wyatt]

"The Rock put over the Hurricane clean".

Yeah, he absolutely did not. 

People act like Hurricane beat him with a chokeslam in the center of the ring. The reality is that the Rock carried most of the offense and had him absolutely dead to rights until Austin distracted him leading to a roll-up.

[Feyrhausen]

Dec 21, 2021 10:01:22 GMT -5 sungod2020 said:

Dec 21, 2021 9:33:20 GMT -5 Feyrhausen said:

He did his best to kill the AWA as that was the one territory that came close to having the market he did.

But yeah most were still clinging to old ways of doing business that no longer worked in the new media landscape. Vince was simply the one in the best position to take advantage.

Plus, if Vince didn't do it, someone else would've. Also, the idea that he stole stars from the other companies under the promise they would be making MORE money and exposure as well as name recognition. As if none of us would do the same thing in their situation. God forbid those people had to feed their families. 

Lots of companies were looking at moving national Vince just had the best position with the New York market. While Vince did grow up poor and did work hard to get h success would never have had the success he did without the advantage of being able to buy New York from his dad. If his dad had owned say Tennessee Vince would not hae made it like he did.

[Feyrhausen]

Dec 21, 2021 10:18:53 GMT -5 Ben Wyatt said:

"The Rock put over the Hurricane clean".

Yeah, he absolutely did not. 

People act like Hurricane beat him with a chokeslam in the center of the ring. The reality is that the Rock carried most of the offense and had him absolutely dead to rights until Austin distracted him leading to a roll-up.

Rock did not put over Hurricane clean but he did put him over. He let Hurricane get plenty of offense and some near falls. It also looked better after the complete burial by Triple H a couple of weeks later.

[Slingshot Suplay]

Dec 21, 2021 9:33:20 GMT -5 Feyrhausen said:

Dec 21, 2021 9:05:44 GMT -5 ToyfareMark said:

That Vince killed the territories. Most of them were already dead, or dying when the expansion was happening.

He did his best to kill the AWA as that was the one territory that came close to having the market he did.

But yeah most were still clinging to old ways of doing business that no longer worked in the new media landscape. Vince was simply the one in the best position to take advantage.

It was a 3 pronged attack on territories:
1- Paying tv stations for the timeslot occupied by the promotion in that market
2- stealing top talent and paying them to not fulfill their commitment or give proper notice, leaving the competitor without major stars for shows they were already advertised for, hurting the company's credibility in the market
3- running shows in their backyard with said star talent to steal the market and ultimately push the competition out.

The territory system may have been dying, but Vince sped up the process because he was operating with no respect or morals, while the other promoters were still clinging to the 60's -70's handshake deal business, not the 80's yuppie dog-eat-dog business.

[Bo Rida]

That things that are over in front of a relatively small audience don't translate to the big stage. No. If you can get something over in front of small crowds it usually can work in front of larger ones.

Ecw's influence helped WWE in the attitude era and much of today's products are influenced by RoH and Chikara.

That's not to say tweaks don't have to me made. It also has to make sense in the larger stage's world, some things like LU's supernatural shenanigans or sex dolls winning titles in DDT only work in that setting but WWE can still use their influence for cinematic matches and office building based matches.
But fundamentally if an act works touring high school gyms in can usually work on a televised show.

["Playboy" Don Douglas]

As discussed in another thread, "Dusty Rhodes was a joke in the WWF."

No, he wasn't. The polka dots may have been silly, but they didn't hurt him, and the "Common Man" was arguably the #3 babyface behind Hogan and Warrior. His main programs were with Boss Man, Savage, and Dibiase.

It's not like they had him struggling with Dino Bravo and Greg Valentine every night. No disrespect to those guys, but they were clearly lower on the card.

[Feyrhausen]

Dec 21, 2021 10:52:36 GMT -5 Slingshot Suplay said:

Dec 21, 2021 9:33:20 GMT -5 Feyrhausen said:

He did his best to kill the AWA as that was the one territory that came close to having the market he did.

But yeah most were still clinging to old ways of doing business that no longer worked in the new media landscape. Vince was simply the one in the best position to take advantage.

It was a 3 pronged attack on territories:
1- Paying tv stations for the timeslot occupied by the promotion in that market
2- stealing top talent and paying them to not fulfill their commitment or give proper notice, leaving the competitor without major stars for shows they were already advertised for, hurting the company's credibility in the market
3- running shows in their backyard with said star talent to steal the market and ultimately push the competition out.

The territory system may have been dying, but Vince sped up the process because he was operating with no respect or morals, while the other promoters were still clinging to the 60's -70's handshake deal business, not the 80's yuppie dog-eat-dog business.

I am aware of all of his tactics. I recommend reading The Death of the Territories by Tim Hornbaker. Most of the smaller ones were dying off and the larger ones had no idea what they were doing when trying to expand.

Verne Gagne would have stood the best chance of beating Vince but he was too stuck in the old school mindset. Bill Watts had any chance taken away by the oil bust. Plus by controlling New York Vince could change what the public saw wrestling as being. The only area that could have controlled the narrative like that would have been an LA based promotion. But that was never really a strong area for wrestling.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

The comparative “slowness” of WWE style during Ruthless Aggression as compared to the indy scene flourishing then. The real difference to me was the level of experimentation allowed in building matches really, Vinnie Mac has got his preferences in his match booking but I can’t help but think of how guys like Angle, Edge and the rest of the Smackdown Six killed each other then. The Hardyz were going apeshit, Brock even as a rookie was unreal. ROH and the X Division got more leeway in planning the matches, but so far as physical intensity, I didn’t see *that* big a difference some nights when WWE guys really cut loose. WM19 alone, the marquee matches had guys hella banged up.

[Fade]

Dec 21, 2021 10:27:49 GMT -5 Feyrhausen said:

Dec 21, 2021 10:18:53 GMT -5 Ben Wyatt said:

"The Rock put over the Hurricane clean".

Yeah, he absolutely did not. 

People act like Hurricane beat him with a chokeslam in the center of the ring. The reality is that the Rock carried most of the offense and had him absolutely dead to rights until Austin distracted him leading to a roll-up.

Rock did not put over Hurricane clean but he did put him over. He let Hurricane get plenty of offense and some near falls. It also looked better after the complete burial by Triple H a couple of weeks later.

Not to mention share a bunch of screen time with him in arguably some of the most memorable bits of his “Hollywood” heel run.

[RadcapRadsley]

Dec 21, 2021 9:05:44 GMT -5 ToyfareMark said:

That Vince killed the territories. Most of them were already dead, or dying when the expansion was happening.

WCCW top stars were all dying young. Imagine if Hogan,Savage and Piper all had overdoses within a 2 year period in the mid 80's would have killed off WWF. No company could have survived

["Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik]

I think there are a lot of false narratives around WCW when it started falling off. The Fingerpoke of Doom is often pointed to as a tipping point and it may have been a huge moment, but it was still a very salvageable situation and the wheels really fell off 3-4 months later when a year of bad TV and little follow up to the Goldberg/nWo angle finally started driving viewers away. I also think Goldberg also doesn't get enough credit. Even if he had his detractors, he was still the most consistent over act in WCW for the final three years, even after the streak ended.

A lot of the Monday Night Wars discourse and narratives also revolves around week to week ratings which did matter to people at the time but the gates/PPV buys played a much larger role in terms of the financial situations for each company. The ratings for WCW were largely always fine, even by the end. But the PPVs and ticket sales collapsed which made shutting it down an easier choice than it should've been.

[Mozenrath]

Dec 21, 2021 9:33:20 GMT -5 Feyrhausen said:

Dec 21, 2021 9:05:44 GMT -5 ToyfareMark said:

That Vince killed the territories. Most of them were already dead, or dying when the expansion was happening.

He did his best to kill the AWA as that was the one territory that came close to having the market he did.

But yeah most were still clinging to old ways of doing business that no longer worked in the new media landscape. Vince was simply the one in the best position to take advantage.

With how much Verne underestimated the value of television as something worth putting effort into beyond just promoting his live shows, his hesitation with Hogan, and his attempts to get a cut of Japanese paydays with his guys, alienating ones like Hogan and Stan Hansen, Verne was definitely not doing himself any favors at times.

Still, I do sometimes wonder if AWA could have limped along a little while longer if WWE were less adversarial with them. (Not that he was any angel, either, given him trying to pay Iron Sheik to shoot on Hogan.) I think that AWA still goes the way of UWF and WCCW and gets trampled by Crockett and Vince, but maybe they could have lingered like Memphis did.