chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 28,059
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Post by chazraps on Dec 21, 2021 21:21:00 GMT -5
The Dragon's true identity was forgotten when he returned in 1991. Sure, the nickname and fire breathing persona were the rule not the exception...but references were made to Steamboat's previous WWF stay from time to time. They even called him Steamboat on occasion. His Hasbro figure's "autograph" even is "The Dragon Ricky Steamboat," IIRC. I wonder if this was all a rib on Sean Mooney that got way out of hand. Rewatching 1991 Superstars, and absolutely everybody acknowledges The Dragon's past EXCEPT for Mooney, who refers to him as a "mysterious newcomer" multiple times for several weeks. It makes him look like the one guy who doesn't know what he was talking about, so given how tight that ship was run in 1991, I bet it was a direct order he was given during a bulk taping. Perhaps the reason this idea has be so oft-repeated is that Mooney would make these claims before directly cutting to the promos for the local markets so they stand out more in fans' minds on an intimate level.
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Post by greyfmdan on Dec 21, 2021 21:52:38 GMT -5
The Dragon's true identity was forgotten when he returned in 1991. Sure, the nickname and fire breathing persona were the rule not the exception...but references were made to Steamboat's previous WWF stay from time to time. They even called him Steamboat on occasion. His Hasbro figure's "autograph" even is "The Dragon Ricky Steamboat," IIRC. I wonder if this was all a rib on Sean Mooney that got way out of hand. Rewatching 1991 Superstars, and absolutely everybody acknowledges The Dragon's past EXCEPT for Mooney, who refers to him as a "mysterious newcomer" multiple times for several weeks. It makes him look like the one guy who doesn't know what he was talking about, so given how tight that ship was run in 1991, I bet it was a direct order he was given during a bulk taping. Perhaps the reason this idea has be so oft-repeated is that Mooney would make these claims before directly cutting to the promos for the local markets so they stand out more in fans' minds on an intimate level. I honestly don’t remember, as a kid, hearing them not refer to him as Ricky Steamboat. I did watch an Old School MSG show on the Network where he was only referred to as “The Dragon,” but that’s the first I remember hearing that. I also don’t remember them downplaying him. I was a new enough fan that I hadn’t watched his first WWF run and don’t remember seeing him between runs in WCW. But I knew Ricky “The Dragon” Steamboat was a pretty big deal.
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petef3
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,783
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Post by petef3 on Dec 21, 2021 23:08:38 GMT -5
I was watching each guys' first runs and I have absolutely zero memory of either the Widow Maker or the Dragon having their past acknowledged. Obviously in hindsight it was, but they sure did a good job of hiding it after like a week.
This isn't strictly limited to just the IWC, but one way overblown story is "Brian Pillman worked WCW into giving him an early release." At BEST, the worked release let Pillman out of his contract, like, a month early. But his contract was already going to expire in April of '96 and this fact was known and reported on months in advance. Meanwhile, the "early termination" letter was NEVER reported on in the newsletters until well after the fact, even though Kim Woods and Dave Meltzer in hindsight have treated it like it was some masterstroke on Pillman's part and a "because WCW" moment on Bischoff's. It was always Pillman's intention to re-sign with WCW--the car accident changed things, as WCW then wanted to put a 30-day termination clause into it after his injuries, an impasse that led to Pillman getting a big guaranteed-money deal from the WWF when he became available. There was never any master plan to leave the company on Pillman's part--if he had his druthers, he'd have stayed. And looking back...it's kind of hard to blame WCW for wanting an out, isn't it?
This one's way more minor but supposedly Bob Holly's original WWF ring name was a a pun on "STP"--"Sparky" Thurmann Plugg. Except I have absolutely zero memory or record of him ever being referred to that way. It was always Thurmann "Sparky" Plugg (or usually just Sparky Plugg) until the name change.
A lot of Scott Keith BS has finally been debunked in the past few years, less the occasional OSW or someone perpetuating an old wives' tale like Mr. Perfect originally being booked to win the 1990 Rumble. But a lot of people still seem to believe that the Ultimate Warrior was going to be the one to sell out at SummerSlam '92 but that he balked--absolutely no truth to this rumor as best I can tell. It was never reported in the newsletters either then or in retrospect, it doesn't match anything relating to the build-up on WWF TV (if a major turn like Warrior's were happening, there'd be *some* hint of it on TV--and not in the way that the WWF was hinting at it, in which it should have been clear that it *wasn't* going to happen, if you follow me). It was pretty clear watching the TV that the plan was to get the belt from Savage to Warrior through Flair. A heel Warrior wouldn't have had any viable challengers anyhow--not with Savage being marginalized almost immediately after losing.
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Post by greyfmdan on Dec 21, 2021 23:20:17 GMT -5
A lot of the Monday Night Wars discourse and narratives also revolves around week to week ratings which did matter to people at the time but the gates/PPV buys played a much larger role in terms of the financial situations for each company. The ratings for WCW were largely always fine, even by the end. But the PPVs and ticket sales collapsed which made shutting it down an easier choice than it should've been. On this note, I’ve always thought the idea that WCW ended—and could have never been revived—mainly because of damaged ratings was a bit mistaken. Yes, it was well off its peak, but Nitro was still a top 20 cable show at its end. Plus digital cable was taking off at the time, and new networks were launching in short order that would have been happy to bring on a name brand show. Personally, I have little doubt that WCW could have found a new TV home. It might not have been as good a deal or on as visible a network as what they were used to, but I have to think someone would have taken them. The fact that Bischoff put all his eggs in the Turner basket without a backup plan shows a lack of business acumen on his part, but it’s understandable why he’d have thought Turner wouldn’t want to give up a top 20 show. The fact that it didn’t happen once WWE assumed control, IMHO, just shows that WWE didn’t particularly want it to.
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Post by greyfmdan on Dec 22, 2021 0:08:54 GMT -5
I was watching each guys' first runs and I have absolutely zero memory of either the Widow Maker or the Dragon having their past acknowledged. Obviously in hindsight it was, but they sure did a good job of hiding it after like a week. That’s fair. Our minds can be funny in the details they do & don’t remember. Personally I can’t remember them once mentioning Bob Backland’s history during his 90s run, though now it’s hard for me to think they never did. During the Bret feud, though, I was pretty much thinking, “Who is this old guy, and why do they expect me to believe he can beat Bret?” Of course, maybe they intentionally didn’t do much to educate the audience, because it seemed more shocking when he did beat Bret.
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cjh
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,652
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Post by cjh on Dec 22, 2021 0:17:41 GMT -5
I was watching each guys' first runs and I have absolutely zero memory of either the Widow Maker or the Dragon having their past acknowledged. Obviously in hindsight it was, but they sure did a good job of hiding it after like a week. That’s fair. Our minds can be funny in the details they do & don’t remember. Personally I can’t remember them once mentioning Bob Backland’s history during his 90s run, though now it’s hard for me to think they never did. During the Bret feud, though, I was pretty much thinking, “Who is this old guy, and why do they expect me to believe he can beat Bret?” Of course, maybe they intentionally didn’t do much to educate the audience, because it seemed more shocking when he did beat Bret. Backlund's first title run was mentioned all the time during his 1992-1997 run. When he first returned as a babyface, they hyped him as a former WWF Champion looking to regain the title. Later, his loss to Iron Sheik was constantly shown and credited as the true catalyst for his heel turn.
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Post by greyfmdan on Dec 22, 2021 0:37:39 GMT -5
That’s fair. Our minds can be funny in the details they do & don’t remember. Personally I can’t remember them once mentioning Bob Backland’s history during his 90s run, though now it’s hard for me to think they never did. During the Bret feud, though, I was pretty much thinking, “Who is this old guy, and why do they expect me to believe he can beat Bret?” Of course, maybe they intentionally didn’t do much to educate the audience, because it seemed more shocking when he did beat Bret. Backlund's first title run was mentioned all the time during his 1992-1997 run. When he first returned as a babyface, they hyped him as a former WWF Champion looking to regain the title. Later, his loss to Iron Sheik was constantly shown and credited as the true catalyst for his heel turn. I take your word for it. I just can’t remember a lick of it. 😂
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Dec 22, 2021 0:58:06 GMT -5
The Dragon's true identity was forgotten when he returned in 1991. Sure, the nickname and fire breathing persona were the rule not the exception...but references were made to Steamboat's previous WWF stay from time to time. They even called him Steamboat on occasion. His Hasbro figure's "autograph" even is "The Dragon Ricky Steamboat," IIRC. I wonder if this was all a rib on Sean Mooney that got way out of hand. Rewatching 1991 Superstars, and absolutely everybody acknowledges The Dragon's past EXCEPT for Mooney, who refers to him as a "mysterious newcomer" multiple times for several weeks. It makes him look like the one guy who doesn't know what he was talking about, so given how tight that ship was run in 1991, I bet it was a direct order he was given during a bulk taping. Perhaps the reason this idea has be so oft-repeated is that Mooney would make these claims before directly cutting to the promos for the local markets so they stand out more in fans' minds on an intimate level. It probably was just a Mooney thing. Even though I liked him the guy was basically a robot who seemingly couldn't remember anything that happened more then like two weeks ago. I remember one time on a Coliseum Video tape from 1990 during a Ted Dibiase match he actually referenced the angle with Dibiase trying to buy Hercules from two years before which shocked the hell out of me because it was the only time I had heard Mooney actually bring up something from the past.
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Ultimo Gallos
Grimlock
Dreams SUCK!Nightmares live FOREVER!
Posts: 14,659
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Post by Ultimo Gallos on Dec 22, 2021 4:08:39 GMT -5
That these days the "majority" is another group of fans bigger than the IWC. When its the other way around because who isn't on the internet and talking wrestling these days? When you look at the all around wrestling landscape. If the majority was not the IWC I'm sure AEW wouldn't have had the success out of the gate that it did. Since most of what they did was through the Internet. I'm still shocked that there is big wrestling fans locally that aren't online. Well besides FB. But then living in a rural area with lots of the area not having access to decent internet might be why.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Dec 22, 2021 6:30:57 GMT -5
A lot of the Monday Night Wars discourse and narratives also revolves around week to week ratings which did matter to people at the time but the gates/PPV buys played a much larger role in terms of the financial situations for each company. The ratings for WCW were largely always fine, even by the end. But the PPVs and ticket sales collapsed which made shutting it down an easier choice than it should've been. On this note, I’ve always thought the idea that WCW ended—and could have never been revived—mainly because of damaged ratings was a bit mistaken. Yes, it was well off its peak, but Nitro was still a top 20 cable show at its end. Plus digital cable was taking off at the time, and new networks were launching in short order that would have been happy to bring on a name brand show. Personally, I have little doubt that WCW could have found a new TV home. It might not have been as good a deal or on as visible a network as what they were used to, but I have to think someone would have taken them. The fact that Bischoff put all his eggs in the Turner basket without a backup plan shows a lack of business acumen on his part, but it’s understandable why he’d have thought Turner wouldn’t want to give up a top 20 show. The fact that it didn’t happen once WWE assumed control, IMHO, just shows that WWE didn’t particularly want it to. A bunch of people who were involved in the failed sale to Fusient and Bischoff have since discussed what happened. Long story short, Fusions just got tired of dealing with Jaime Kellner and the other people with AOL/Warner. After the deal had been agreed upon AOL/Warner kept changing things to the point Fusient just said not worth it and backed out. They were not happy about the TV slots not being included, but a new deal had been agreed upon at a reduced cost but more shenanigans happened.
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Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,292
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 22, 2021 6:41:31 GMT -5
Marc Mero was never any good. He was a big get for the WWE at the time, so much so they broke their pay structure to get him. He was rapidly improving in WCW, was a heck of an athlete and didn't seem to have a mountain of personal problems bubbling away behind the scenes, unlike a lot of the WWF and WCW rosters at the time. He struggled to find himself and had the misfortune of getting hurt at a bad time, and the horndogs in booking deciding his untalented wife should be the star and never recovered. Mick Foley didn't care for him, and he was one of the few to speak out about wrestling's massive death toll when eddie and benoit died, so he's persona non grata with wrestlers and that seeped into the IWC 's opinion of the guy. I think listening to a few podcasts that covered the New Gen era WWF and WCW opened my eyes to how good he actually was. Guy was really solid as Johnny B Badd. I think my biggest issue with Johnny B. Badd, and something that hurt him with later generations more than what some saw as ambulance chasing, frankly, even if I think that's not especially fair, is that he kind of lacked in angles. In WWF, he is most remembered for feuding with Sable and how weird it got, and in WCW, it was the DDP feud that lasted what felt like a goddamn century. His matches were fine, and he had a lot going for him, but his angles largely don't hold up. Not really his fault, but it happens.
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Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,292
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 22, 2021 6:49:17 GMT -5
A lot of the Monday Night Wars discourse and narratives also revolves around week to week ratings which did matter to people at the time but the gates/PPV buys played a much larger role in terms of the financial situations for each company. The ratings for WCW were largely always fine, even by the end. But the PPVs and ticket sales collapsed which made shutting it down an easier choice than it should've been. On this note, I’ve always thought the idea that WCW ended—and could have never been revived—mainly because of damaged ratings was a bit mistaken. Yes, it was well off its peak, but Nitro was still a top 20 cable show at its end. Plus digital cable was taking off at the time, and new networks were launching in short order that would have been happy to bring on a name brand show. Personally, I have little doubt that WCW could have found a new TV home. It might not have been as good a deal or on as visible a network as what they were used to, but I have to think someone would have taken them. The fact that Bischoff put all his eggs in the Turner basket without a backup plan shows a lack of business acumen on his part, but it’s understandable why he’d have thought Turner wouldn’t want to give up a top 20 show. The fact that it didn’t happen once WWE assumed control, IMHO, just shows that WWE didn’t particularly want it to. Had the right buyer come along, maybe so, though Vince tried to get it on another network, with no one interested who was willing to pay what it'd have needed to be feasible. Bischoff was boned due to the merger, but I feel like if the network didn't want to go along with it, I don't think he had the kind of seed money to take it elsewhere, anyway. I think what hurt the chances of Vince selling it elsewhere was that, yeah, WCW's downturn hurt, and the raunchy nature of 99-00 wrestling had probably given some networks misgivings, but the biggest issue is maybe that Vince wasn't going to make it a priority, and they knew that. How could he even if he wanted to? He had Raw, Smackdown, Heat, and whatever other programs bouncing around. Wrestling has its value, but people don't pay top dollar for table scraps, and Vince wasn't going to be putting Nash, Hogan, Sting, and Goldberg money into WCW. It just wasn't going to happen.
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Post by greyfmdan on Dec 22, 2021 13:49:08 GMT -5
Had the right buyer come along, maybe so, though Vince tried to get it on another network, with no one interested who was willing to pay what it'd have needed to be feasible. Bischoff was boned due to the merger, but I feel like if the network didn't want to go along with it, I don't think he had the kind of seed money to take it elsewhere, anyway. The hypothetical deal that I retroactively envision for a Bischoff/Fusient-owned WCW would have been perhaps something akin to the Fox Sports deal that TNA got a short time later. Possibly on a revenue-sharing or barter basis that would have given WCW airtime somewhere and given an emerging network some name-brand programing. Whether such a deal would have been acceptable to Bischoff & Fusient is another matter, but if TV was as critical to the deal as Bischoff says, it would have at least been something. Of course, there would still be the matter of who paid production costs, and if Bischoff/Fusient was on the hook for all or most of it, that might have been too big a weight to keep the company afloat for very long. I think what hurt the chances of Vince selling it elsewhere was that, yeah, WCW's downturn hurt, and the raunchy nature of 99-00 wrestling had probably given some networks misgivings, but the biggest issue is maybe that Vince wasn't going to make it a priority, and they knew that. How could he even if he wanted to? He had Raw, Smackdown, Heat, and whatever other programs bouncing around. Wrestling has its value, but people don't pay top dollar for table scraps, and Vince wasn't going to be putting Nash, Hogan, Sting, and Goldberg money into WCW. It just wasn't going to happen. Agreed, particularly with your point I highlighted. It probably wouldn’t have gotten a Raw/Smackdown-esque timeslot**, but as much as Viacom was rolling out the proverbial red carpet for Vince at that time, it seems like they’d have at least given him an hour a week if he wanted to make it a WWECW-type show. Certainly TV execs have given airtime to goofier Vince McMahon pet projects. I just don’t believe his heart was in this one. ** FWIW, I’ve never really bought into the notion that turning either Raw or SD into a WCW show was ever a serious proposal. I can believe the idea was halfheartedly tossed out to the network execs. But both TNN/Viacom and UPN had deals to run WWF-produced, WWF-branded programming. If the idea was considered at all, anyone involved had to know that trying to bait-&-switch a flagship WWF show into a WCW show wasn’t going to be acceptable to either network.
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Dec 22, 2021 15:07:55 GMT -5
On this note, I’ve always thought the idea that WCW ended—and could have never been revived—mainly because of damaged ratings was a bit mistaken. Yes, it was well off its peak, but Nitro was still a top 20 cable show at its end. Plus digital cable was taking off at the time, and new networks were launching in short order that would have been happy to bring on a name brand show. Personally, I have little doubt that WCW could have found a new TV home. It might not have been as good a deal or on as visible a network as what they were used to, but I have to think someone would have taken them. The fact that Bischoff put all his eggs in the Turner basket without a backup plan shows a lack of business acumen on his part, but it’s understandable why he’d have thought Turner wouldn’t want to give up a top 20 show. The fact that it didn’t happen once WWE assumed control, IMHO, just shows that WWE didn’t particularly want it to. Had the right buyer come along, maybe so, though Vince tried to get it on another network, with no one interested who was willing to pay what it'd have needed to be feasible. Bischoff was boned due to the merger, but I feel like if the network didn't want to go along with it, I don't think he had the kind of seed money to take it elsewhere, anyway. I think what hurt the chances of Vince selling it elsewhere was that, yeah, WCW's downturn hurt, and the raunchy nature of 99-00 wrestling had probably given some networks misgivings, but the biggest issue is maybe that Vince wasn't going to make it a priority, and they knew that. How could he even if he wanted to? He had Raw, Smackdown, Heat, and whatever other programs bouncing around. Wrestling has its value, but people don't pay top dollar for table scraps, and Vince wasn't going to be putting Nash, Hogan, Sting, and Goldberg money into WCW. It just wasn't going to happen. I think a lot of the problem was the "Wildman" character was lame and really didn't make any sense. Like what was he even supposed to be? A guy from the jungle? Nobody was going to buy that in 1996. I saw an interview Mero where he said he himself wasn't into it mainly because he didn't know who he was supposed to be and even the people in charge didn't really have a good grasp on it either.
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tafkaga
Samurai Cop
the Dogfather
Posts: 2,195
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Post by tafkaga on Dec 22, 2021 15:22:21 GMT -5
People also seem to think that nobody cared about Lex at all during his face run. He got cheers but the people liked other faces more. It didn’t help that he had 1/10th of the charisma that Hulk had, Therein was the problem: they literally tried to make him Hulk Hogan, and assume the USA gimmick on its own would make the fans accept him as such. He didn’t have the intangibles that made Hogan the biggest name in wrestling for a decade. He didn't have Hogan's intangibles. He had his own intangibles. If they'd just let him be Lex Luger instead of draping him in the flag and shoving him down the audience's throats, he would have been fine. No, he wouldn't have been the second coming of Hogan, but he would have been Lex Luger, which is a lot more than they got by saddling him with lame gimmicks.
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Dec 22, 2021 16:07:41 GMT -5
Therein was the problem: they literally tried to make him Hulk Hogan, and assume the USA gimmick on its own would make the fans accept him as such. He didn’t have the intangibles that made Hogan the biggest name in wrestling for a decade. He didn't have Hogan's intangibles. He had his own intangibles. If they'd just let him be Lex Luger instead of draping him in the flag and shoving him down the audience's throats, he would have been fine. No, he wouldn't have been the second coming of Hogan, but he would have been Lex Luger, which is a lot more than they got by saddling him with lame gimmicks. That's pretty much it. It's not something I would've done but I understand why they did it in that Luger definitely did look the part. Like if you see those pics of him with the belt he looks like the most archetype lead babyface wrestler ever. The American Flag gear, the unbelievable physique, tall, heck even the belt looked like it fit him perfectly. He looked like a comic book superhero come to life. From a look standpoint he was definitely marketable. Problem was it wasn't him and it came through and the fans I think saw through it. It just felt super forced. That's the best way I can describe Lex Express American Hero Lex Luger. If they would've just kept him as the Narcissist he would've had a much better run as that role just fit him a lot better and was more who he really was.
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Post by James Fabiano on Dec 22, 2021 17:14:43 GMT -5
Are there people who believe that Roddy Piper's "That's Tony Atlas!" was a shoot? First, this was syndicated TV, taped in advance, Vince could have cut it out easily if he felt it inappropriate. Second, Piper as an announcer was starting out more like a tweener-borderline-heel. He was the counterpoint to Vince's point that the babyface Atlas "found his roots" and became Saba Simba.
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Post by James Fabiano on Dec 22, 2021 18:48:12 GMT -5
tayed. And looking back...it's kind of hard to blame WCW for wanting an out, isn't it? This one's way more minor but supposedly Bob Holly's original WWF ring name was a a pun on "STP"--"Sparky" Thurmann Plugg. Except I have absolutely zero memory or record of him ever being referred to that way. It was always Thurmann "Sparky" Plugg (or usually just Sparky Plugg) until the name change. A lot of Scott Keith BS has finally been debunked in the past few years, less the occasional OSW or someone perpetuating an old wives' tale like Mr. Perfect originally being booked to win the 1990 Rumble. But a lot of people still seem to believe that the Ultimate Warrior was going to be the one to sell out at SummerSlam '92 but that he balked--absolutely no truth to this rumor as best I can tell. It was never reported in the newsletters either then or in retrospect, it doesn't match anything relating to the build-up on WWF TV (if a major turn like Warrior's were happening, there'd be *some* hint of it on TV--and not in the way that the WWF was hinting at it, in which it should have been clear that it *wasn't* going to happen, if you follow me). It was pretty clear watching the TV that the plan was to get the belt from Savage to Warrior through Flair. A heel Warrior wouldn't have had any viable challengers anyhow--not with Savage being marginalized almost immediately after losing. The STP one made it to the WWF Magazine, if not TV. Was Lex showing up drunk at the New York Times revealing the Mania X result a SK story?
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Post by sungod2020 on Dec 22, 2021 19:25:01 GMT -5
tayed. And looking back...it's kind of hard to blame WCW for wanting an out, isn't it? This one's way more minor but supposedly Bob Holly's original WWF ring name was a a pun on "STP"--"Sparky" Thurmann Plugg. Except I have absolutely zero memory or record of him ever being referred to that way. It was always Thurmann "Sparky" Plugg (or usually just Sparky Plugg) until the name change. A lot of Scott Keith BS has finally been debunked in the past few years, less the occasional OSW or someone perpetuating an old wives' tale like Mr. Perfect originally being booked to win the 1990 Rumble. But a lot of people still seem to believe that the Ultimate Warrior was going to be the one to sell out at SummerSlam '92 but that he balked--absolutely no truth to this rumor as best I can tell. It was never reported in the newsletters either then or in retrospect, it doesn't match anything relating to the build-up on WWF TV (if a major turn like Warrior's were happening, there'd be *some* hint of it on TV--and not in the way that the WWF was hinting at it, in which it should have been clear that it *wasn't* going to happen, if you follow me). It was pretty clear watching the TV that the plan was to get the belt from Savage to Warrior through Flair. A heel Warrior wouldn't have had any viable challengers anyhow--not with Savage being marginalized almost immediately after losing. The STP one made it to the WWF Magazine, if not TV. Was Lex showing up drunk at the New York Times revealing the Mania X result a SK story? That was a debunked urban legend. I mean, why go through all the time, money, and effort to push a guy, only to balked at the last minute because he told some reporter he was going to be made champion? I think the real reason he wasn't going to be made champion was simple, he just wasn't cutting it as a main eventer. If you look at the reaction between him and Bret at the Royal Rumble, the fans were audibly more behind The Hitman than they were with Luger. If there was ever a plan to make him WWF champion, then it must've been scrapped headed into Wrestlemania, not the night before. Plus, the night after Wrestlemania on RAW, he took on Rick Martel in the opening match, and at that point, The Model was in JTTS territory. So not only did he not win the championship, but he was pushed down the card immediately after Wrestlemania and has been floundering until he left the company in September 1995. Would they really cancel an upcoming World title push at the last minute because of that?
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petef3
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,783
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Post by petef3 on Dec 22, 2021 19:34:06 GMT -5
The Luger thing was reported in a New York paper's gossip column, I forget which one. It's BS but not BS that can be blamed on Keith.
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