Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Feb 8, 2022 0:29:40 GMT -5
The first one she definitely looks like she is not holding Alexas head/body at all. She just drops
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 8, 2022 6:36:11 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I think we need more matches that are completely planned out and rehearsed, because some of the shit that's been served up in the last few years? Hoo boy, some of those guys and girls cannot call a match on the fly.
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Post by eJm on Feb 8, 2022 7:34:20 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I think we need more matches that are completely planned out and rehearsed, because some of the shit that's been served up in the last few years? Hoo boy, some of those guys and girls cannot call a match on the fly. The dilemma is, though, is it because they're genuinely bad at calling a match on the fly or they're encouraged not to? And I'm personally of the opinion that it should happen but the counter of that is that there shouldn't be as many live events and such unless those are going to be the training ground of it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 8:53:29 GMT -5
In fairness, I seriously don’t understand why the measure of whether or not someone is “good” in ring is whether their matches are scripted or called in the ring. Wrestling isn’t real. If the end product is entertaining and believable, what does it matter if the match was rehearsed move for move? Plus, none of us actually know whether or to what extent wrestlers actually go over their stuff. We’re not in the locker room. I don’t even like Rousey much, and I’m not looking forward to her and Brock being “around” at the same time in the slightest, but she’s shown a professional wrestling acumen. The Boogeyman could have rehearsed his moves ad nauseam before matches, and the matches would still be bad, because he wasn’t a very good wrestler. If Ronda rehearses the matches and they are good, doesn’t that mean she’s a good wrestler? For me at least, it's matter of the box WWE is keeping her in, and the way they're reportedly now approaching NXT. Rehearsal isn't inherently a problem, but it's the attitude and approach that they should spoonfeed and coach everybody into very specifically hitting only what they're told to in the spot they're told to do it without teaching them. I remember a Kevin Nash shoot interview where he was talking about guys in WCW who would get handheld by some of the veterans with planned matches but never really told them why or how to build that up themselves, which led to those guys becoming dependent on the shot-callers; they weren't learning, they were just being guided step by step into shit and not really given the education they needed to take away from it. They want Ronda, and now their trainees, to be so dependent on them and so incapable of building things up themselves that they box people in to these planned matches with nothing dynamic and no ability to diverge from anything, and we've seen before how utterly destructive not teaching people to adapt and learn is with stuff like Charlotte Flair in that cursed ladder match. Even if it's not the explicit mark of whether you're good or not, it's an important skill that people who learn how to wrestle are taught and urged to develop, and the problem with them mostly keeping Ronda boxed in and fed everything like choreography is that it's keeping her from fully learning and growing as a wrestler. She can't develop her ring psychology if they tell her what to do and she's unable to go out there and explore it anymore than telling dictating somebody's essay for them word by word doesn't teach them to truly understand the topic they're writing words down about. Ronda being given some rehearsed matches early on while she's getting the hang of it? Makes total sense. Ronda now still needing that? That's a gaping flaw in how they're training her, and it's a bad sign in my eyes. Frankly, it even has echoes to the aforementioned horrible striking I talked about and how nobody was willing to be honest with her about it and tell her to dump her loser idiot coach for a real striking coach. There's this entire skillset she's not being allowed to properly develop and it's not helping her at all in growing. Now that I 100% agree with. I think the concerted effort that WWE is making to differentiate “superstars” from “professional wrestlers” will ultimately be detrimental to the industry. I just think that’s a separate issue from whether a “superstar” is a good wrestler or not on the sole basis of matches being scripted and/or choreographed.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Feb 8, 2022 8:53:43 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I think we need more matches that are completely planned out and rehearsed, because some of the shit that's been served up in the last few years? Hoo boy, some of those guys and girls cannot call a match on the fly. The dilemma is, though, is it because they're genuinely bad at calling a match on the fly or they're encouraged not to? And I'm personally of the opinion that it should happen but the counter of that is that there shouldn't be as many live events and such unless those are going to be the training ground of it. Either way with the new people they are bringing in and the training they are going to give them I can see all matches being completely laid out move for move in the future.
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Post by polarbearpete on Feb 8, 2022 9:54:33 GMT -5
For me at least, it's matter of the box WWE is keeping her in, and the way they're reportedly now approaching NXT. Rehearsal isn't inherently a problem, but it's the attitude and approach that they should spoonfeed and coach everybody into very specifically hitting only what they're told to in the spot they're told to do it without teaching them. I remember a Kevin Nash shoot interview where he was talking about guys in WCW who would get handheld by some of the veterans with planned matches but never really told them why or how to build that up themselves, which led to those guys becoming dependent on the shot-callers; they weren't learning, they were just being guided step by step into shit and not really given the education they needed to take away from it. They want Ronda, and now their trainees, to be so dependent on them and so incapable of building things up themselves that they box people in to these planned matches with nothing dynamic and no ability to diverge from anything, and we've seen before how utterly destructive not teaching people to adapt and learn is with stuff like Charlotte Flair in that cursed ladder match. Even if it's not the explicit mark of whether you're good or not, it's an important skill that people who learn how to wrestle are taught and urged to develop, and the problem with them mostly keeping Ronda boxed in and fed everything like choreography is that it's keeping her from fully learning and growing as a wrestler. She can't develop her ring psychology if they tell her what to do and she's unable to go out there and explore it anymore than telling dictating somebody's essay for them word by word doesn't teach them to truly understand the topic they're writing words down about. Ronda being given some rehearsed matches early on while she's getting the hang of it? Makes total sense. Ronda now still needing that? That's a gaping flaw in how they're training her, and it's a bad sign in my eyes. Frankly, it even has echoes to the aforementioned horrible striking I talked about and how nobody was willing to be honest with her about it and tell her to dump her loser idiot coach for a real striking coach. There's this entire skillset she's not being allowed to properly develop and it's not helping her at all in growing. Now that I 100% agree with. I think the concerted effort that WWE is making to differentiate “superstars” from “professional wrestlers” will ultimately be detrimental to the industry. I just think that’s a separate issue from whether a “superstar” is a good wrestler or not on the sole basis of matches being scripted and/or choreographed. I also think there’s a ton of assumptions being made about things we don’t really know. Obviously she was a newbie going into her first match at Mania having never had a match before, and so in that scenario on such a big stage it makes sense to map out the match completely. But she then wrestled on TV, house shows and PPVs for a full year. We don’t know that her matches towards the second half of that year were completely mapped out and rehearsed to the same degree as her year run went along. We know of at least one account from Natalya that they called a very good match completely in the ring. We don’t know if by the end of the year she was having matches where they just went over the big spots beforehand (like almost everyone does nowadays). And again, I’ll stress that she had her entire first (and only) year in the business completely in front of a worldwide audience, a year that we usually never see of wrestlers as they are working the indies. She’s not a finished product.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Feb 8, 2022 10:06:12 GMT -5
Rehearsed matches are fine, I never had a problem with them. The issue arises when something happens and you can't follow the script. That was a problem DDP would have sometimes, and it has happened to Rousey a couple of times. The hope would be that she eventually can learn enough where she can have a match where she has the ability to call some stuff without Nattie, because sometimes shit happens.
Overall, this whole argument is confusing to me, because the wrestling is mostly fine; it's the inability to cut a promo and her general weirdness on the mic that is holding her back.
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Post by polarbearpete on Feb 8, 2022 10:26:14 GMT -5
Rehearsed matches are fine, I never had a problem with them. The issue arises when something happens and you can't follow the script. That was a problem DDP would have sometimes, and it has happened to Rousey a couple of times. The hope would be that she eventually can learn enough where she can have a match where she has the ability to call some stuff without Nattie, because sometimes shit happens. Overall, this whole argument is confusing to me, because the wrestling is mostly fine; it's the inability to cut a promo and her general weirdness on the mic that is holding her back. Yeah that I can agree with. She’d be better off with a mouthpiece or at least just use her without having her cut long monologues.
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asuka007
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by asuka007 on Feb 8, 2022 11:55:44 GMT -5
She got booed pretty bad when Lita mentioned her on Raw, and she was not even there.
I genuinely wonder if she’s gonna be able to handle the fan responses all year?
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Post by eJm on Feb 8, 2022 11:59:34 GMT -5
Rehearsed matches are fine, I never had a problem with them. The issue arises when something happens and you can't follow the script. That was a problem DDP would have sometimes, and it has happened to Rousey a couple of times. The hope would be that she eventually can learn enough where she can have a match where she has the ability to call some stuff without Nattie, because sometimes shit happens. Overall, this whole argument is confusing to me, because the wrestling is mostly fine; it's the inability to cut a promo and her general weirdness on the mic that is holding her back. Yeah that I can agree with. She’d be better off with a mouthpiece or at least just use her without having her cut long monologues. It's sort of where the company's requirement for people being able to cut 20-minute monologues and not really react to the crowd makes it weirder for people like Ronda. Like, if she's going to be heel, you might as well have someone like Heyman manage her too considering that in both backstage and media appearances, they've worked together. Could also add extra fuel to the fire on if Roman can truly trust Heyman considering he's happy to managing another former UFC talent like Brock was.
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gl83
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Post by gl83 on Feb 8, 2022 12:02:12 GMT -5
She got booed pretty bad when Lita mentioned her on Raw, and she was not even there. I genuinely wonder if she’s gonna be able to handle the fan responses all year? Like Ronda's fine right now since she is going against Charlotte. But, what happens when she starts getting put with people like Bayley or Sasha Banks or come SvS time a Bianca Belair or Rhea Ripley.
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Post by polarbearpete on Feb 8, 2022 12:02:30 GMT -5
Yeah that I can agree with. She’d be better off with a mouthpiece or at least just use her without having her cut long monologues. It's sort of where the company's requirement for people being able to cut 20-minute monologues and not really react to the crowd makes it weirder for people like Ronda. Like, if she's going to be heel, you might as well have someone like Heyman manage her too considering that in both backstage and media appearances, they've worked together. Could also add extra fuel to the fire on if Roman can truly trust Heyman considering he's happy to managing another former UFC talent like Brock was. Yeah if she turns heel later in the year like has been speculated, I can see them giving her a manager.
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Post by The Rick Jericho on Feb 8, 2022 12:03:20 GMT -5
Cultoholic.
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Post by Rudy Gobert Fadeaway on Feb 8, 2022 12:14:54 GMT -5
I really give a damn bout my bad reputation Living in the past f***ing hate this generation
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Dub H
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Captain Pixel: the Game Master
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Post by Dub H on Feb 8, 2022 12:27:41 GMT -5
I really give a damn bout my bad reputationLiving in the past f***ing hate this generation Probably the least fitting intro opener for any wrestler theme ever
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Feb 8, 2022 12:29:36 GMT -5
It's a work, Jim. They're not booing the actual Ronda Rousey, they're booing whatever that character is. It's akin to a celebrity on Curb playing themselves, except much less well written.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,880
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Post by Dub H on Feb 8, 2022 12:33:27 GMT -5
It's a work, Jim. They're not booing the actual Ronda Rousey, they're booing whatever that character is. It's akin to a celebrity on Curb playing themselves, except much less well written. Cant we boo both?
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Feb 8, 2022 14:57:03 GMT -5
For someone who cut all the worky shoot promos and had all the tweets about how fake this shit is, I feel like no one ever explained to her what faces and heels are in a way that got through to her in any way. Yes but like all things, this is WWE's fault. They turned her heel because the fans turned on her. It was already too late to smarten her up, and they put her in the position to get booed before she turned. On the discussion of rehearsals of matches - didn't Savage plan his out start to finish, DDP too? Is that so different? Genuinely asking, I am yet to form an opinion
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asuka007
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by asuka007 on Feb 8, 2022 15:06:28 GMT -5
There’s nothing inherently wrong with planning out matches.
I think the potential hiccup however is that, if something goes wrong, they might not be as able to adjust on the fly.
Charlotte is by far the weakest of the HW when it comes to doing that as well.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 15:10:28 GMT -5
The first one she definitely looks like she is not holding Alexas head/body at all. She just drops That's a perfect example of why developmental is a thing, no matter who you are. Brock and Kurt Angle probably could have walked in day one and done suplexes, submission holds, and throws. The developmental (Brock went through OVW, Kurt was trained by Dr. Tom) was partly to teach them how to do things without giving people concussions.
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