Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Aug 31, 2022 8:18:21 GMT -5
I liked Test a great deal, and felt he did fit the main event, they were always so hot/cold on him though, and being left out of a HHH feud I feel hurt him immensely. That would have made him. I was a huge Test mark (or "Testicle") during the Invasion angle, seeing him collect all those belts in 2001 made me feel it was going to be his year. I thought that was weird at the time it happened. Stephanie is supposed to marry test, hunter comes out and says "I married her first!", and the big match is vince vs hunter where stephanie turns heel, lol, and test is immediately removed from the story and is soon in the tag team with albert and trish right after. Where was the test vs hunter match that you would logically think would've happened? Commentary did put over him being really pissed off, with a new mean streak... so he naturally won the Hardcore title. In fact, he was the guy Crash beat to start the whole 24/7 bit.
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Post by sungod2020 on Aug 31, 2022 9:19:01 GMT -5
He and Dibiase's Summerslam match had the crowd losing their minds. Virgil was over big time as a face for a year or so. I wonder why they depushed him so quick. It wasn't like he was even bad in ring either. I wouldn't say he was great or anything but fine enough. I love the Repo Man but sacrificing Virgil to him seemed like a questionable decision. Honestly of the two of them I would say Virgil had the more upside at that point. Other then getting the winning pinfall in the eight man tag at WrestleMania VIII Virgil was cooked after that as he was just fed to like literally every heel. What else could've been done with Virgil to keep him relevant? His overness came off of Ted Dibiase being a great heel(Roddy Piper endorsing him also helped), but after that he would need to fend for himself. I can't see him gunning for the IC title scene since Bret Hart needed that push more, and the tag team scene, while past it's peak was still too full for him to form a makeshift tag team. If there was a teritary title(like the European Championship in the Attitude Era) maybe he would've benefitted from that, but the roster was shrinking at the time, so he pretty much had nowhere to go but down.
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
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Post by Sephiroth on Aug 31, 2022 9:59:22 GMT -5
Kozlov got featured on a ppv poster and was supposedly in line to feud with Undertaker
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2022 9:59:46 GMT -5
This company had a weird obsession with Vladimir Kozlov back in 2008/early 2009.
I liked Kozlov and all and it's clear that he's killing it in the movie industry now. He's in way better shape than he was when he was a wrestler too. I mean if he can get movie roles, maybe I was missing the potential crossover appeal and WWE were right to push him strong? f*** knows.
I remember him beating The Undertaker with a POWERSLAM clean as a whistle on a random Smackdown. He also beat Jeff Hardy who was red hot at the time.
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Post by canceled4truth on Aug 31, 2022 10:19:49 GMT -5
This company had a weird obsession with Vladimir Kozlov back in 2008/early 2009. I liked Kozlov and all and it's clear that he's killing it in the movie industry now. He's in way better shape than he was when he was a wrestler too. I mean if he can get movie roles, maybe I was missing the potential crossover appeal and WWE were right to push him strong? f*** knows. I remember him beating The Undertaker with a POWERSLAM clean as a whistle on a random Smackdown. He also beat Jeff Hardy who was red hot at the time. Kozlov's monster heel run on SmackDown in 2008-09 is so weird to look back on. He was booked as this unstoppable monster heel, but it's not like he was as physically imposing as guys like Rusev or Mark Henry that we've seen get similar pushes in the past. He sucked in-ring, and couldn't cut a promo, but for some reason, they didn't give him a manager. But he beat Undertaker clean, and even got a WWE Championship match at Survivor Series, against Triple H. But then he stunk up the joint, and then the next minute, he was doing comedy shit with Santino, and the minute after that, he was gone.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,056
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Aug 31, 2022 10:32:25 GMT -5
I wonder why they depushed him so quick. It wasn't like he was even bad in ring either. I wouldn't say he was great or anything but fine enough. I love the Repo Man but sacrificing Virgil to him seemed like a questionable decision. Honestly of the two of them I would say Virgil had the more upside at that point. Other then getting the winning pinfall in the eight man tag at WrestleMania VIII Virgil was cooked after that as he was just fed to like literally every heel. What else could've been done with Virgil to keep him relevant? His overness came off of Ted Dibiase being a great heel(Roddy Piper endorsing him also helped), but after that he would need to fend for himself. I can't see him gunning for the IC title scene since Bret Hart needed that push more, and the tag team scene, while past it's peak was still too full for him to form a makeshift tag team. If there was a teritary title(like the European Championship in the Attitude Era) maybe he would've benefitted from that, but the roster was shrinking at the time, so he pretty much had nowhere to go but down. Could have given him something though, even if it failed. How about a David v Goliath feud with Warlord? Wouldn't have been amazing, but would have given them something to do and gotten Warlord away from Davey Boy since that feud went far too long.
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XIII
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by XIII on Aug 31, 2022 10:40:35 GMT -5
I think that Virgil’s dilemma was that the build up to turning on $ was building for so long, that once he did it the crowd was going to lose their minds for that feud, but after it what do you do with the guy? Does the crowd care as much when he’s in there with Skinner or something and not a heat machine like $? I guess that they could have tried more with him but he was just a one feud angle guy in their eyes I guess.
* I say that it was building for so long, not “officially” but when you start to look back around the Rumble where he turned on him he was always the dude taking ass kickings for $ for what 4 or 5 years prior? Very sympathetic angle and turn.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,056
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Aug 31, 2022 10:46:53 GMT -5
I think that Virgil’s dilemma was that the build up to turning on $ was building for so long, that once he did it the crowd was going to lose their minds for that feud, but after it what do you do with the guy? Does the crowd care as much when he’s in there with Skinner or something and not a heat machine like $? I guess that they could have tried more with him but he was just a one feud angle guy in their eyes I guess. * I say that it was building for so long, not “officially” but when you start to look back around the Rumble where he turned on him he was always the dude taking ass kickings for $ for what 4 or 5 years prior? Very sympathetic angle and turn. It's always the problem with the "break free" angle, happened twice with Miz too, that's why my idea would be to put him in another situation where he's an underdog, try and keep the same vibe going "you broke free, but you're still the worthless chump that took crap for years". He wasn't a big guy so you could do that, you can still have him get destroyed by the new monster heel like "Yakazuma" but it helps if he's been playing the scrappy guy more, not just a total JTTS. Sid injuring him came at a good time because the Dibiase stuff was still only a few months ago, but when you have that... then Nailz... then Yoko... he just becomes the sacrificial guy, if in mid 92 he'd won a feud against, say, The Mountie who was enough of a comedy character it's believable, was about to be sent off for repackaging anyway but was a recent champion, jokey as it was, then when the next monster come, Virgil isn't just a scrub.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Aug 31, 2022 18:53:28 GMT -5
Adam Rose and Bo Dallas debuted on the main roster at similar times and both went on 10-15 match winning streaks with Swagger, Kofi, R-Truth and Santino being prominent opponents it wasn't tv jobbers. Then when they eventually lost they seldom won again. Adam Rose won his first 25 consecutive televised matches in the gimmick. Only six people have had longer win streaks on WWE TV over the last 18 years, they being Ryback, Brodus Clay, Cedric Alexander, Asuka, Mansoor and Sheamus.
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Post by johnnyk9 on Aug 31, 2022 19:03:55 GMT -5
Kevin Sullivan but then again he was booker
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Post by sungod2020 on Sept 1, 2022 16:48:28 GMT -5
Yeah, he at least had good babyface fire at that point and could have worked as an underdog, but you need the underdog to occasionally win something big. Did he even have any feuds post DiBiase? The Repo Man stuff was a coda for that, he seemed to be one of those aimless bodies who'd show up, not doing anything of note which became more of a problem as things transitioned to the New Generation era. Also to add someone from the Dino Bravo timeframe, Hercules! The guy was on like, 20 PPVs in a row with only a couple of moments he really seemed over, his initial face turn then the early days of Power and Glory. Oddly enough Virgil at the end of his run in the summer of 94 (Virgil still being around at this point is crazy to me) he had a feud with Nikolai Volkoff when they brought him back with that angle where he was broke and started working for Dibiase. Basically the premise being that it was Dibiase's former abused lackey against his new one. However besides that, Dibiase, and Repo Man there was no feuds for him. Unless I guess you count him being a proxy for Boss Man against Nailz which led to him getting squashed at Summerslam 92. That Hercules stat is something I've always found insane. If you don't count Tuesday In Texas from Wrestlemania 2 to Royal Rumble 1992 there was only two wrestlers that wrestled at every PPV. Hogan and Hercules. Like he was never pushed that hard so why they always found the need to get him a PPV spot is so strange. As for Herc not getting over in a way I can't put all the blame on him as they never really gave him much of a chance as he just kind of always lost when it mattered. I thought he got kind of a raw deal with his face run in particular. They turned him with the whole Dibiase slave deal and then Dibiase got the better of him at like literally every turn (eliminated him from Survivor Series and Royal Rumble and then beat him again in the blow off on The February 89 Main Event special) so he was pretty much cooked right out of the gates. Beating Haku as a consolation at Wrestlemania wasn't enough. They couldn't even let him beat Valentine who they were well past giving a crap about at Summerslam even though they Garvin right there to do the easy heel gets distracted by rival and loses finish. Power and Glory started promising and was the first six months of that was probably the first time since late 86-early 87 when he started being managed by Heenan that he was presented well as they won handily won their feud with the Rockers who never really got even with them for injuring Shawn at Summerslam 90. However by Wrestlemania time it was obvious there wasn't going to be much of a future for them between the Nasty Boys coming in and taking their push, getting squashed by LOD, and Hercules seemingly aging like twenty years in six months where he was just a complete shell of his former self both in look and performance.Power and Glory definitely should've had the tag team title reign the Nasty Boys had. Not only would it have been Hercules and Paul Roma's only title reign in the WWF, it would also be the only time Slick managed a champion. It's amazing how quick both got depushed since they made it to the Grand Finale, and lasted a decent amount of time in the Royal Rumble(Paul Roma for 14 minutes, Hercules for 35!). It could've really could've salvaged Herc's credibility, if only for a little while. I'm going to say without any evidence to support this, the reason the Nastys got that out the gate push was because they were Hogan guys(Brian Knobbs even made it to the final three at the Royal Rumble, along with Hogan which adds more credence to that theory).
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Sept 2, 2022 2:50:46 GMT -5
Oddly enough Virgil at the end of his run in the summer of 94 (Virgil still being around at this point is crazy to me) he had a feud with Nikolai Volkoff when they brought him back with that angle where he was broke and started working for Dibiase. Basically the premise being that it was Dibiase's former abused lackey against his new one. However besides that, Dibiase, and Repo Man there was no feuds for him. Unless I guess you count him being a proxy for Boss Man against Nailz which led to him getting squashed at Summerslam 92. That Hercules stat is something I've always found insane. If you don't count Tuesday In Texas from Wrestlemania 2 to Royal Rumble 1992 there was only two wrestlers that wrestled at every PPV. Hogan and Hercules. Like he was never pushed that hard so why they always found the need to get him a PPV spot is so strange. As for Herc not getting over in a way I can't put all the blame on him as they never really gave him much of a chance as he just kind of always lost when it mattered. I thought he got kind of a raw deal with his face run in particular. They turned him with the whole Dibiase slave deal and then Dibiase got the better of him at like literally every turn (eliminated him from Survivor Series and Royal Rumble and then beat him again in the blow off on The February 89 Main Event special) so he was pretty much cooked right out of the gates. Beating Haku as a consolation at Wrestlemania wasn't enough. They couldn't even let him beat Valentine who they were well past giving a crap about at Summerslam even though they Garvin right there to do the easy heel gets distracted by rival and loses finish. Power and Glory started promising and was the first six months of that was probably the first time since late 86-early 87 when he started being managed by Heenan that he was presented well as they won handily won their feud with the Rockers who never really got even with them for injuring Shawn at Summerslam 90. However by Wrestlemania time it was obvious there wasn't going to be much of a future for them between the Nasty Boys coming in and taking their push, getting squashed by LOD, and Hercules seemingly aging like twenty years in six months where he was just a complete shell of his former self both in look and performance.Power and Glory definitely should've had the tag team title reign the Nasty Boys had. Not only would it have been Hercules and Paul Roma's only title reign in the WWF, it would also be the only time Slick managed a champion. It's amazing how quick both got depushed since they made it to the Grand Finale, and lasted a decent amount of time in the Royal Rumble(Paul Roma for 14 minutes, Hercules for 35!). It could've really could've salvaged Herc's credibility, if only for a little while. I'm going to say without any evidence to support this, the reason the Nastys got that out the gate push was because they were Hogan guys(Brian Knobbs even made it to the final three at the Royal Rumble, along with Hogan which adds more credence to that theory). Being buds with Hogan I'm sure helped the Nasties get hot shotted up the ladder so quick. However Herc was a Hogan guy too as I remember Bundy saying in a shoot interview that Hogan would go to bat for him with Vince when he thought he was "jobbing Herc too much". Roma wasn't close with Hogan though and I don't think was well liked by many backstage in general as his character in Power and Glory apparently wasn't far from what he was IRL. Shoot interviews of him pretty much confirm it. Definitely comes off like a guy who thinks his s**t don't stink. I could that maybe playing a part in the Power and Glory push getting dropped as maybe his attitude rubbed people in the office the wrong way. I know Prichard on his podcast wasn't very complimentary of him. Also another advantage the Nasties had was since they were new they didn't have the baggage of doing so many jobs over the years. Other then the minor Young Stallions push in 87 Roma had been doing syndicated weekend TV jobs for years. Even Hercules while a good bit higher on the totem pole then Roma, jobbed a decent bit on Prime Time and big shows (PPV, SNME) and was one of least protected name guys in the late 80's. They did do a good job rehabbing both of them in the first several months because as you said they did have a string of good PPV showings where they were presented well. Destroying the Rockers at Summerslam, both making the Grand Finale at Survivor Series (where Hercules was the last guy eliminated), and Hercules having a bafflingly long run in the Rumble. So with that and it being "a whole greater then the sum of it's parts" type deal maybe they could've overcame that. However perception is often reality.
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Eunös ✈
Dalek
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Posts: 59,196
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Post by Eunös ✈ on Sept 2, 2022 3:31:44 GMT -5
Billy Gunn is another one WWF clearly saw Main event potential in at some point as they made several attempts to push him as a singles star.
Obvious one being his KOTR win and when he returned in late 2000.
Obviously they all fell flat in the end.
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Post by jason1980s on Sept 2, 2022 10:24:11 GMT -5
I'm curious how the Nasty Boys were Hogan guys in 1991. I know they were later on in their careers up to even now moreso with Knobs. But in January 1991 they had just come to WWF. I guess I'm curious when they found the time to befriend Hogan given his WWF schedule over the years and them being in different promotions.
Also, I'm of the mindset Power & Glory never should have done as well as they had. It was like Barry Horowitz and Hakushi teaming. Paul was about one step above Barry on the card and as mentioned was losing for years. Roma being destroyed by LOD in SD Jones like time at Wrestlemania was all he was good for.
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Post by chronocross on Sept 2, 2022 10:37:18 GMT -5
Kozlov got featured on a ppv poster and was supposedly in line to feud with Undertaker Also he beat Undertaker clean as a sheet on Smackdown before WM25.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,056
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Sept 2, 2022 11:17:08 GMT -5
I'm curious how the Nasty Boys were Hogan guys in 1991. I know they were later on in their careers up to even now moreso with Knobs. But in January 1991 they had just come to WWF. I guess I'm curious when they found the time to befriend Hogan given his WWF schedule over the years and them being in different promotions. Also, I'm of the mindset Power & Glory never should have done as well as they had. It was like Barry Horowitz and Hakushi teaming. Paul was about one step above Barry on the card and as mentioned was losing for years. Roma being destroyed by LOD in SD Jones like time at Wrestlemania was all he was good for. Maybe they shouldn't have, but sometimes, you put 2 random guys and it clicks and they become better than they have any right to be, biggest example is the New Age Outlaws, this was one of those cases, then suddenly it was like a switch was pressed and they were back where, well, you'd expect a Hercules and Roma team to be.
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Post by sungod2020 on Sept 2, 2022 12:10:48 GMT -5
I'm curious how the Nasty Boys were Hogan guys in 1991. I know they were later on in their careers up to even now moreso with Knobs. But in January 1991 they had just come to WWF. I guess I'm curious when they found the time to befriend Hogan given his WWF schedule over the years and them being in different promotions.Also, I'm of the mindset Power & Glory never should have done as well as they had. It was like Barry Horowitz and Hakushi teaming. Paul was about one step above Barry on the card and as mentioned was losing for years. Roma being destroyed by LOD in SD Jones like time at Wrestlemania was all he was good for. Hmmm, not sure exactly. Maybe Hogan took a liking to them quickly, or maybe he knew of them in other promotions and saw potential in them. As far as Barry Horowitz and Hakushi goes, I feel they should've gone further with Horowitz "push." The fans were clearly behind him. Instead of just having wins over Skip and Hakushi, he was still a jobber to everyone else, and in 96 went back to full time jobbing like nothing happened. Very frustrating. What I would've done is capitalize on Horowitz newfound popularity. Have him go over lower midcard guys(Rad Radford, Bob Holly, Mo, Million Dollar Corporation Goons), while just coming up short to upper midcarders(Owen Hart, British Bulldog, etc etc). Have this go on leading into Wrestlemania, where him and Hakushi win the tag team titles in the tournament and give Horowitz his Wrestlemania match/moment. It would also salvage Hakushi's WWF run after his loss to Horowitz.
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Post by jason1980s on Sept 2, 2022 12:41:58 GMT -5
As far as Barry Horowitz and Hakushi goes, I feel they should've gone further with Horowitz "push." The fans were clearly behind him. Instead of just having wins over Skip and Hakushi, he was still a jobber to everyone else, and in 96 went back to full time jobbing like nothing happened. Very frustrating. What I would've done is capitalize on Horowitz newfound popularity. Have him go over lower midcard guys(Rad Radford, Bob Holly, Mo, Million Dollar Corporation Goons), while just coming up short to upper midcarders(Owen Hart, British Bulldog, etc etc). Have this go on leading into Wrestlemania, where him and Hakushi win the tag team titles in the tournament and give Horowitz his Wrestlemania match/moment. It would also salvage Hakushi's WWF run after his loss to Horowitz. Yeah, Barry went back to losing pretty quickly and it killed Hakushi just being with him I thought. Vince never really knew what to do with foreign wrestlers and it showed with Hakushi plus heel commentators would always put down Barry so it was hard for fans to get behind them. His Skip win and few PPV matches after were a good way to show him some thanks for his years of jobbing but there was never anything bigger planned. Hakushi was also done more dirty, thrown out like yesterday's garbage early in 1996. I think one of, if not his last, TV losses came against Bradshaw where he was humiliated and branded. That 1996 tag title tournament was packed with low card guys going nowhere but Sunny was the main attraction so her team had to win.
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thecrusherwi
El Dandy
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Brawl For All
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Post by thecrusherwi on Sept 2, 2022 12:51:14 GMT -5
Power and Glory definitely should've had the tag team title reign the Nasty Boys had. Not only would it have been Hercules and Paul Roma's only title reign in the WWF, it would also be the only time Slick managed a champion. It's amazing how quick both got depushed since they made it to the Grand Finale, and lasted a decent amount of time in the Royal Rumble(Paul Roma for 14 minutes, Hercules for 35!). It could've really could've salvaged Herc's credibility, if only for a little while. I'm going to say without any evidence to support this, the reason the Nastys got that out the gate push was because they were Hogan guys(Brian Knobbs even made it to the final three at the Royal Rumble, along with Hogan which adds more credence to that theory). Being buds with Hogan I'm sure helped the Nasties get hot shotted up the ladder so quick. However Herc was a Hogan guy too as I remember Bundy saying in a shoot interview that Hogan would go to bat for him with Vince when he thought he was "jobbing Herc too much". Roma wasn't close with Hogan though and I don't think was well liked by many backstage in general as his character in Power and Glory apparently wasn't far from what he was IRL. Shoot interviews of him pretty much confirm it. Definitely comes off like a guy who thinks his s**t don't stink. I could that maybe playing a part in the Power and Glory push getting dropped as maybe his attitude rubbed people in the office the wrong way. I know Prichard on his podcast wasn't very complimentary of him. Also another advantage the Nasties had was since they were new they didn't have the baggage of doing so many jobs over the years. Other then the minor Young Stallions push in 87 Roma had been doing syndicated weekend TV jobs for years. Even Hercules while a good bit higher on the totem pole then Roma, jobbed a decent bit on Prime Time and big shows (PPV, SNME) and was one of least protected name guys in the late 80's. They did do a good job rehabbing both of them in the first several months because as you said they did have a string of good PPV showings where they were presented well. Destroying the Rockers at Summerslam, both making the Grand Finale at Survivor Series (where Hercules was the last guy eliminated), and Hercules having a bafflingly long run in the Rumble. So with that and it being "a whole greater then the sum of it's parts" type deal maybe they could've overcame that. However perception is often reality. All of these things probably played a part, but I also think it had to do with the Nastys being fresh off the Steiners feud in WCW where they were presented as equals to the Steiners and had beaten the Steiners up the last time we saw them together on TV (albeit after losing to them in a match). They were a new team that had been protected in WCW, they looked and talked uniquely, could bump, and were great heels. They were the perfect team to come in, take the belts off of the Harts (to free up Bret), and set up a true money match/feud with the LOD over the summer. I don't think you would've gotten the draw or as good of matches with Power & Glory and LOD as you got with LOD and the Nasty Boys. (workrate wise, Power & Glory were very good, but the Nasty Boys' style meshed better with the Legion of Doom's style than Power & Glory)
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Post by Denny Zen is Cooking™ on Sept 2, 2022 13:21:45 GMT -5
I think it's insane that, after the most infamous debut of all time, WCW pressed on with the construction worker Shockmaster as an extremely prominent upper midcarder/borderline main eventer all the way to the end of 1993.
He got the fall in the War Games match.
He got the win for his team at Halloween Havoc.
He got the win for his team (over a team featuring Regal and friggin' Steamboat) at Battlebowl.
He got a (very random) singles victory at Starrcade.
And, then, he was just kind of gone. It is insane, in retrospect, when you rewatch WCW '93 and see how prominently the Shockmaster remained on the roster for about a 4 month period until the very end of 1993. I think he's kind of thought of as a failed debut who fell off of the face of the Earth right afterwards.
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