|
|
Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on May 2, 2023 6:19:17 GMT -5
It's mainly from a few weirdly agressive contraians, who are really trying to insist that because the bottom hasn't fallen out that it was a good move. Problem is regardless of what decision they had made on the day, the result would have largely been the same. A curiosity bump post Mania, a general flattening out, and then a bump for the draft. Any issues that are gonna be felt from this would be longer term, but also not enough to affect their business in any meaninful way. So it doesn't really matter, nothing they do really matters anymore. They make money by just existing at this point. So they don't really need to please the fanbase, but that also means they also don't have to actively fight against it either. I'd go along with all of that. Although I think in the past it's been framed as WWE not having to really try as they have a hardcore fanbase who'll just passively accept anything and keep watching out of habit. I don't think that's quite the case here - I think an underrated amount of WWE fans just really, really like Roman Reigns and so they aren't outraged at all that he won. This is 1,000 percent accurate. There are pockets of the wrestling community (like us) that are tired of the Roman stuff, but the bulk of fans just like holding up the 1s and being fans of somebody that wins all the time. I watched Elimination Chamber at a bar in NYC and you'd think given NYC being a smarky part of town that it would have been a very Sami crowd, but 90% of the people there were calling Sami a "lackey" and cheering on Roman. |
|
deezy
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,688
|
Post by deezy on May 2, 2023 6:35:47 GMT -5
It was such an easy lay-up that you didn't think it was impossible to f*** up, but WWE has that magical way of still surprising you sometimes. Plus what's so funny is if they didn't ultimately want to go with Rhodes, they'd accidentally made Sami Zayn a completely suitable replacement, and they didn't go with him either. It's just full steam forward with the Reigns train, problem is no one seems to know where it's going. It's also objectively bad booking when you consider Cody was regularly outdrawing Reigns in house shows, drawing higher rated segments, and selling more merch by comparison. I can laugh at it, cause I don't give a f***, but I can't understand WWE fans trying to spin this as a good decision. Is Cody now drawing less people to house shows, drawing lower rated segments and selling less merch? I've not seen (m)any people saying it was a good decision, just that the reaction to it with people gleefully suggesting it would tank the company was absurd. One massively popular guy beat another massively popular guy and the world moves on. Yeah I didn't see anyone defending the decision after Mania ( which doesn't mean there wasn't, I just didn't see it ) but more of people saying Cody isn't ruined and WWE's business won't tank. Of course Cody should of won, but it's not the end of the wrestling world that he didn't. |
|
|
|
Post by Starshine on May 2, 2023 6:44:52 GMT -5
It's mainly from a few weirdly agressive contraians, who are really trying to insist that because the bottom hasn't fallen out that it was a good move. Problem is regardless of what decision they had made on the day, the result would have largely been the same. A curiosity bump post Mania, a general flattening out, and then a bump for the draft. Any issues that are gonna be felt from this would be longer term, but also not enough to affect their business in any meaninful way. So it doesn't really matter, nothing they do really matters anymore. They make money by just existing at this point. So they don't really need to please the fanbase, but that also means they also don't have to actively fight against it either. I'd go along with all of that. Although I think in the past it's been framed as WWE not having to really try as they have a hardcore fanbase who'll just passively accept anything and keep watching out of habit. I don't think that's quite the case here - I think an underrated amount of WWE fans just really, really like Roman Reigns and so they aren't outraged at all that he won. Sure, but the bottom line though is that Cody was performing better business wise than Reigns everywhere it mattered. I don't know if that's the case now, live numbers probably haven't changed much considering that I'm assume a lot of recent show tickets may have been sold months ago anyway during that surge, so I'm not sure how much you can measure present trends from them. Ultimately, they could have gone with the guy who was delivering better results, and maybe grown that further with their full support clearly behind him when his popularity may have been at its peak. That's where my issue is, there's no reason to not go with the hotter hand instead of whatever the thought behind sticking with Roman is. A long title reign should be less important than bottom line results, especially for this f***ing company, and how they tout profit margins above all else. |
|
|
|
Post by firsttimelongtime on May 2, 2023 8:24:34 GMT -5
Cody should have won. However, Roman being Champion is not bad booking. Both can be true. Both can be true, but I highly disagree about the latter It was good at one point, but the justification for this title reign continuing on has gotten less and less the longer it has Drew was a good time Sami was a better time Cody was THE time And now they have to make another belt just for other guys to win a "world title" because it's never actually the time for Roman. I don't agree in any metric that keeping the belt on Roman has been good booking at this point nor are the ends actively justifying the means. Business is soaring with Roman as the top dog. I understand some people don't care about that, which is fine. I just don't buy the line of thinking of it being bad booking when the business is still hot. Again, I would have had Cody win, but that doesn't mean keeping the title on Roman is bad. |
|
|
|
Post by polarbearpete on May 2, 2023 8:41:13 GMT -5
It can be creatively disappointing, while also be fine or even good business wise.
The indicators that you would measure whether something is hot or not have still been soaring post-Mania. The ratings are up a tremendous amount year over year, ticket sales for shows that went on sale after Mania are still selling at a fast rate, TV shows and house shows have been doing record business, Cody seems just as over with the crowd still, etc.
Now maybe that takes a nosedive in the next few months and they start showing some declines year over year, but that hasn’t happened yet.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2023 9:21:07 GMT -5
Cody not winning is akin to how it would have been if Daniel Bryan didn't win at WM 30. People weren't watching to see who was going to win, they were watching for Roman's loss and Cody's coronation. I would like to be wrong, but I don't see them being able to salvage the angle at this point.
The story ended unfinished. The only option now is to give the correct ending to a shorter, much, MUCH less satisfying story.
|
|
Rolent Tex
Grimlock
Posts: 12,862
Member is Online
|
Post by Rolent Tex on May 2, 2023 9:47:05 GMT -5
“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it” is a perfect quote to sum up the whole “business is good so why mess with what works” mindset. Nor saying it’s a bad view to have per se…but we’re one bad day away from Roman losing to Cody or Sami, Jey winning the belt thanks to Jimmy and a taser and Jey dropping the strap back to Roman on Raw the next night in a Fingerpoke of Doom because they can’t let the Bloodline go. Ever.
|
|
|
|
Post by eJm on May 2, 2023 9:48:21 GMT -5
Business is soaring with Roman as the top dog. I understand some people don't care about that, which is fine. I just don't buy the line of thinking of it being bad booking when the business is still hot. Again, I would have had Cody win, but that doesn't mean keeping the title on Roman is bad. Nobody was really saying that but, and I wish I could find the Twitter thread, someone looked through the data put up and found that there were house shows that drew better this year with Cody on top than Roman, Cody is the number one merch seller this year dwarfing the entire Bloodline, his segments have done better numbers and demos than Romans etc. Like, hey, business is still decent on top with him but if you're a functioning business that wants to grow and see those, even if it doesn't work out for the long term, you'd want to pivot from that to potentially make more from him, right? Because if we have access to those figures above, I can't imagine the stuff WWE would have access to would be that much different. |
|
|
|
Post by firsttimelongtime on May 2, 2023 12:04:14 GMT -5
Business is soaring with Roman as the top dog. I understand some people don't care about that, which is fine. I just don't buy the line of thinking of it being bad booking when the business is still hot. Again, I would have had Cody win, but that doesn't mean keeping the title on Roman is bad. Nobody was really saying that but, and I wish I could find the Twitter thread, someone looked through the data put up and found that there were house shows that drew better this year with Cody on top than Roman, Cody is the number one merch seller this year dwarfing the entire Bloodline, his segments have done better numbers and demos than Romans etc. Like, hey, business is still decent on top with him but if you're a functioning business that wants to grow and see those, even if it doesn't work out for the long term, you'd want to pivot from that to potentially make more from him, right? Because if we have access to those figures above, I can't imagine the stuff WWE would have access to would be that much different. Babyfaces have such a leg up in selling merch than heels. And I would say business is better than decent. They had their highest first day non Mania ticket sale for Summerslam, which went on sale after Wrestlemania. They are growing. Look at the year over year ratings, too. It's also kind of unfair to give Cody the benefit of the ratings with Brock when Roman hasn't had a program since Mania to compare it to. Because everything in the build up to Mania with Cody had to do with Roman. Again, I'll be clear I would have had Cody win. I just think the "right" decision is closer to a coin flip than is being portrayed in this thread. |
|
|
|
Post by eJm on May 2, 2023 12:08:35 GMT -5
Nobody was really saying that but, and I wish I could find the Twitter thread, someone looked through the data put up and found that there were house shows that drew better this year with Cody on top than Roman, Cody is the number one merch seller this year dwarfing the entire Bloodline, his segments have done better numbers and demos than Romans etc. Like, hey, business is still decent on top with him but if you're a functioning business that wants to grow and see those, even if it doesn't work out for the long term, you'd want to pivot from that to potentially make more from him, right? Because if we have access to those figures above, I can't imagine the stuff WWE would have access to would be that much different. Babyfaces have such a leg up in selling merch than heels. And I would say business is better than decent. They had their highest first day non Mania ticket sale for Summerslam, which went on sale after Wrestlemania. They are growing. Look at the year over year ratings, too. It's also kind of unfair to give Cody the benefit of the ratings with Brock when Roman hasn't had a program since Mania to compare it to. Because everything in the build up to Mania with Cody had to do with Roman. Again, I'll be clear I would have had Cody win. I just think the "right" decision is closer to a coin flip than is being portrayed in this thread. No, but wouldn't that basically show what they've done with Cody is working to potentially make the change? Because why else would they want to build him to that prominent spot since after Hell in a Cell? This is the issue with a company that is basically almost unsinkable and about to be part of a much wider company. Like, there's no real way to tell about something catastrophic because there's no real scenario unless both USA and FOX and Saudi Arabia never want to work with them again. |
|
|
|
Post by joeiscool on May 2, 2023 12:49:36 GMT -5
I'll bite. If Roman is to hit 1000 days he has to beat people who it seems like he's supposed to lose to.
If Roman hits 1000 days and all the matches wins are to people we think are supposed to lose the matches it means less.
I think the purpose is to keep us guessing. If they are able to keep us engaged and wondering who will beat Roman, and getting us to bite on a few people till next Wrestlemania it's hard to say anyone was supposed to win...
|
|
|
|
Post by polarbearpete on May 2, 2023 13:08:51 GMT -5
Babyfaces have such a leg up in selling merch than heels. And I would say business is better than decent. They had their highest first day non Mania ticket sale for Summerslam, which went on sale after Wrestlemania. They are growing. Look at the year over year ratings, too. It's also kind of unfair to give Cody the benefit of the ratings with Brock when Roman hasn't had a program since Mania to compare it to. Because everything in the build up to Mania with Cody had to do with Roman. Again, I'll be clear I would have had Cody win. I just think the "right" decision is closer to a coin flip than is being portrayed in this thread. No, but wouldn't that basically show what they've done with Cody is working to potentially make the change? Because why else would they want to build him to that prominent spot since after Hell in a Cell? This is the issue with a company that is basically almost unsinkable and about to be part of a much wider company. Like, there's no real way to tell about something catastrophic because there's no real scenario unless both USA and FOX and Saudi Arabia never want to work with them again. The unsinkable thing is not really relevant here since the traditional metrics are continuing to go up as well (ticket sales, ratings, merch, etc). That would be the case if they booked poorly, business went down but they were still fine because of the TV rights and Saudi deals (which is how things were before the company got hot about a year ago). So far what we see is that what they’ve done with Cody is working business wise and he’s still leading Raw even if he’s not the world champion and that hasn’t seemed to keep people away or make him any less over. |
|
Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 235,896
|
Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on May 2, 2023 15:48:07 GMT -5
I'll bite. If Roman is to hit 1000 days he has to beat people who it seems like he's supposed to lose to. If Roman hits 1000 days and all the matches wins are to people we think are supposed to lose the matches it means less. I think the purpose is to keep us guessing. If they are able to keep us engaged and wondering who will beat Roman, and getting us to bite on a few people till next Wrestlemania it's hard to say anyone was supposed to win...They've failed that purpose, because quite a lot of people including here seem to have stopped caring entirely about who Roman loses to at this point. It's not a fun guessing game, it's not entertaining to watch, especially when they have to make a third world title consolation prize, spelling out very blatantly that Roman isn't losing any time soon and they needed a new belt for other guys to play with I don't really care about the aspect of "You see it's a good business!" because WWE is bulletproof and will make money no matter who the damn champion is at this point, they just don't want to make a compelling, shocking, feel good moment when it counts anymore, and when they try, they drop the ball, hard. McIntyre, Sami, Cody, the list goes on... those guys could have won, and in Sami and Cody's case? Probably should have, because the aftermath sucks and is the same old boring Bloodline shit, and the aspect of this going to another WrestleMania is the most dire shit I can imagine at this point lol |
|
|
|
Post by polarbearpete on May 2, 2023 15:56:06 GMT -5
I'll bite. If Roman is to hit 1000 days he has to beat people who it seems like he's supposed to lose to. If Roman hits 1000 days and all the matches wins are to people we think are supposed to lose the matches it means less. I think the purpose is to keep us guessing. If they are able to keep us engaged and wondering who will beat Roman, and getting us to bite on a few people till next Wrestlemania it's hard to say anyone was supposed to win...They've failed that purpose, because quite a lot of people including here seem to have stopped caring entirely about who Roman loses to at this point. It's not a fun guessing game, it's not entertaining to watch, especially when they have to make a third world title consolation prize, spelling out very blatantly that Roman isn't losing any time soon and they needed a new belt for other guys to play with I don't really care about the aspect of "You see it's a good business!" because WWE is bulletproof and will make money no matter who the damn champion is at this point, they just don't want to make a compelling, shocking, feel good moment when it counts anymore, and when they try, they drop the ball, hard. McIntyre, Sami, Cody, the list goes on... those guys could have won, and in Sami and Cody's case? Probably should have, because the aftermath sucks and is the same old boring Bloodline shit, and the aspect of this going to another WrestleMania is the most dire shit I can imagine at this point lol The whole bulletproof and making money aspect is not really as relevant here. That usually has to do with when there is poor creative, ratings and attendance go down, and it doesn’t really matter because most of their money is made through TV rights deals. Here is different, as ratings and attendance are still up tremendously year over year so there’s no indication that people are now less interested (on the whole, obviously there will be people disappointed with shows creatively and dropping off from watching at any point). That won’t definitely continue and maybe Roman’s reign catches up to them eventually as far as interest level goes but it hasn’t hit that point yet. |
|
|
|
Post by joeiscool on May 2, 2023 16:18:56 GMT -5
I'll bite. If Roman is to hit 1000 days he has to beat people who it seems like he's supposed to lose to. If Roman hits 1000 days and all the matches wins are to people we think are supposed to lose the matches it means less. I think the purpose is to keep us guessing. If they are able to keep us engaged and wondering who will beat Roman, and getting us to bite on a few people till next Wrestlemania it's hard to say anyone was supposed to win...They've failed that purpose, because quite a lot of people including here seem to have stopped caring entirely about who Roman loses to at this point. Yes you stopped caring cause roman isn't on tv right now , but when a new challenger is built and pops up I bet everyone invests again. |
|
Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 235,896
|
Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on May 2, 2023 17:09:57 GMT -5
They've failed that purpose, because quite a lot of people including here seem to have stopped caring entirely about who Roman loses to at this point. Yes you stopped caring cause roman isn't on tv right now , but when a new challenger is built and pops up I bet everyone invests again. I mean you can take that bet, Cody broke a lot of people and that was evident on this board. So like, at this point I'm sure people will care when he loses but not for the right reasons, they've really dropped the ball with this in the end, and that's my take. |
|
Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 235,896
|
Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on May 2, 2023 17:11:24 GMT -5
They've failed that purpose, because quite a lot of people including here seem to have stopped caring entirely about who Roman loses to at this point. It's not a fun guessing game, it's not entertaining to watch, especially when they have to make a third world title consolation prize, spelling out very blatantly that Roman isn't losing any time soon and they needed a new belt for other guys to play with I don't really care about the aspect of "You see it's a good business!" because WWE is bulletproof and will make money no matter who the damn champion is at this point, they just don't want to make a compelling, shocking, feel good moment when it counts anymore, and when they try, they drop the ball, hard. McIntyre, Sami, Cody, the list goes on... those guys could have won, and in Sami and Cody's case? Probably should have, because the aftermath sucks and is the same old boring Bloodline shit, and the aspect of this going to another WrestleMania is the most dire shit I can imagine at this point lol The whole bulletproof and making money aspect is not really as relevant here. That usually has to do with when there is poor creative, ratings and attendance go down, and it doesn’t really matter because most of their money is made through TV rights deals. Here is different, as ratings and attendance are still up tremendously year over year so there’s no indication that people are now less interested (on the whole, obviously there will be people disappointed with shows creatively and dropping off from watching at any point). That won’t definitely continue and maybe Roman’s reign catches up to them eventually as far as interest level goes but it hasn’t hit that point yet. Roman's storyline has spun in a circle since Mania and there has been zero justification in the booking to tell me that Cody shouldn't have won, at all, let alone feeding Sami at his hottest to him I'm just not gonna agree that all of this wasn't a huge mistake, just how I see it tbh |
|
chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 27,985 
|
Post by chazraps on May 2, 2023 18:43:58 GMT -5
I'll bite. If Roman is to hit 1000 days he has to beat people who it seems like he's supposed to lose to. If Roman hits 1000 days and all the matches wins are to people we think are supposed to lose the matches it means less. I think the purpose is to keep us guessing. If they are able to keep us engaged and wondering who will beat Roman, and getting us to bite on a few people till next Wrestlemania it's hard to say anyone was supposed to win... No because he's likely not going to defend the belt before then. According to the Triple H promo, he's kayfabe negotiated a new contract where he's going to defend the belt when he wants. He hits 1,000 days on May 27. He's not on Backlash and Night of Champions is literally the day after. The 1,000 days mark is utterly pointless. |
|
mc74
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,410
|
Post by mc74 on May 2, 2023 20:19:21 GMT -5
In an industry where hindsight is this eternal lesson in "Okay yeah we should've pulled the trigger at this obvious moment and waiting cost us in the long run even if it wasn't immediate", I think it's stunning that we keep ending up here. The longest tenured booker in the history of the industry, still not 'getting it'. Especially with the threat of a new title being made and Cody not even getting his hands on the one he feels his father was robbed of when that's the thesis statement of his run. I get that business business flow charts business and all, but there's something to be said for just like, actually telling a good story to engage in the craft of storytelling that it feels WWE is just eternally too short-sighted to understand. Which also leads to why it's so weird when people make ratings and business metrics their bottom line in terms of considering something a good decision or not. Storyteling is an art. Good storytelling is a much more profitable business than smashing that reset button and coasting. But more importantly, good storytelling is better entertainment. WWE is weekly televised live theater. Andy Bernard should have never been regional manager, Dexter should have ended at season 5, True Detective Season 2 should never have happened and Roman should have dropped the title to Cody at Wrestlemania 39 - all regardless what the immediate ratings showed. It absolutely is. While I understand things from a business perspective, what's more important is the bigger picture at hand, as it's quality storytelling makes for a more compelling product in the long run. What's also important is knowing how to stick the landing, because it's one of those things that can really derail a story, which is exactly what happened here. They handled it poorly and made a mess out of it.
|
|
Sparkybob
King Koopa
I have a status?
Posts: 10,990
|
Post by Sparkybob on May 2, 2023 22:20:02 GMT -5
Idk, I think if Roman randomly popped up on a Raw/Smackdown he would get a massive pop no matter if it's smark heavy town or not. You are more than free to not like the bloodline/Roman Reigns and find it boring but it seems the vast majority of the paying audience are still hyped by him.
|
|
![Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] Avatar](http://storage.proboards.com/3411247/avatar/SAmefOpXbCxSOR0DUtvP.jpg)
