chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 27,985
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Post by chazraps on Jun 8, 2023 20:11:08 GMT -5
Wild to think it's been a decade, but one of the most company-damaging angles in the history of the medium of wrestling occurred ten years ago this past week. At the conclusion of the CHIKARA Anniversario: Never Compromise iPPV, the main event was disrupted by a company of men in black-types called Condor who tore everything down and forced fans to leave the arena. Super polarizing at the time, in the years since it's fairly universally considered a colossal blunder and the first step off the edge for what was at one time a top three indy wrestling promotion in America. Here's the Chikara thread from the time, linked to reactions from the exact moment in the iPPV when the invasion happened: officialfan.proboards.com/thread/473995/chikara-thread-happy-aniversario-2013?page=10Here's a deep dive from this week's Between the Sheets with special guest Leonard F Chikarason who gives the inside scoop on the internal company reaction at the time and dispelling many of the rumors. Bix and Kris are far less whiny than they've been lately for this one, and it's the best BtS in a looooong time - redcircle.com/shows/between-the-sheets/ep/941da3e2-6238-42bd-b618-4ac45d2ff47eHow did *you* feel about the shutdown angle at the time and how do you feel about it now?
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Post by Celexa Bliss 54 on Jun 8, 2023 20:34:20 GMT -5
On one hand, this was the angle that caused me to look into Chikara and made me a fan. On the other hand, it's the same angle that caused the decline of this awesome new company I had just discovered. At the time, I was intrigued, because it made me seek out a lot of old shows to find the threads that were being pulled on. And the idea that there was a puzzle to work out as a wrestling angle was innovative. But looking back, yeah, this was one of the worst decisions ever made in wrestling. The company had buzz and momentum and the shutdown really halted that momentum. When they came back in 2014, they weren't the same. Wrestlers left the company, Quack was hiring guys who weren't as skilled or charismatic as the original roster and it just kept declining until the company imploded in 2020.
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Post by ISO Mid Thigh Pull on Jun 8, 2023 20:34:42 GMT -5
One of those ideas that's so bad that you know that the person responsible had to have been a complete nightmare to communicate with on any professional level.
Let's just shut down for a year to BUILD SUSPENSE and pray to every God that our non-live event sources of revenue don't dry up too bad while we're BUILDING SUSPENSE and not producing anything other than SUSPENSE. I'm the f***ing Duck Man I can do any dumb shit I want it's 2012 and the world's gonna blow up right on time for me to not have to worry about any of this shit.
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Post by thegoon21 on Jun 8, 2023 20:41:36 GMT -5
On one hand, this was the angle that caused me to look into Chikara and made me a fan. On the other hand, it's the same angle that caused the decline of this awesome new company I had just discovered. At the time, I was intrigued, because it made me seek out a lot of old shows to find the threads that were being pulled on. And the idea that there was a puzzle to work out as a wrestling angle was innovative. But looking back, yeah, this was one of the worst decisions ever made in wrestling. The company had buzz and momentum and the shutdown really halted that momentum. When they came back in 2014, they weren't the same. Wrestlers left the company, Quack was hiring guys who weren't as skilled or charismatic as the original roster and it just kept declining until the company imploded in 2020. This is me spot on. I always knew of Chikara but never watched it. This angle got my attention. I do think in addition to this probably being a bad idea, Chikara lost A LOT of talent between the shutdown in 2013 and say 2015-2016. They may have got some more eyes on the product with this outside the box idea but once they were back, there wasn’t much to cling to after so long
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Post by ISO Mid Thigh Pull on Jun 8, 2023 20:49:16 GMT -5
I wrote that whole post not even considering the f***ing WRESTLING IS... rebrand and my screams just got 10x louder
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jun 8, 2023 21:08:17 GMT -5
I think the issue was that CHIKARA had been relatively hot before the shutdown. Yeah things had become a bit of mess leading up to it, but everything about it was so weird. Of course the other negative was during the angle a lot of negative things about Quack came out and some people who were fairly prominent before hand left. The comeback had a lot of hype, but the Flood angle ending fairly abruptly lost momentum, then they gained it back but seemed like after Top Banana because of talent leaving for various reasons (a big rumor I remember being that WWE was telling CHIKARA talent that they needed to work more outside of CHIKARA to get signed... again just a rumor) but it always felt like to me that something was lost that CHIKARA never quite recovered from because of the shutdown angle no matter how good some angles got after.
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Post by Starshine on Jun 8, 2023 21:22:37 GMT -5
I think the issue was that CHIKARA had been relatively hot before the shutdown. Yeah things had become a bit of mess leading up to it, but everything about it was so weird. Of course the other negative was during the angle a lot of negative things about Quack came out and some people who were fairly prominent before hand left. The comeback had a lot of hype, but the Flood angle ending fairly abruptly lost momentum, then they gained it back but seemed like after Top Banana because of talent leaving for various reasons (a big rumor I remember being that WWE was telling CHIKARA talent that they needed to work more outside of CHIKARA to get signed... again just a rumor) but it always felt like to me that something was lost that CHIKARA never quite recovered from because of the shutdown angle no matter how good some angles got after. I suspect it's more true than rumour (even if it maybe wasn't outright stated) when you consider the hype and interest the company used to generate during King of Trios, and the complete lack of pure Chikara talent who ended up really going anywhere at a major level without doing extended runs elsewhere first.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jun 8, 2023 21:35:14 GMT -5
I still remember the door being smashed in, I believe that was Frisky who did that and got banned from the Troc due to it lol At the time, it WAS working, they had full scavenger hunts, vignettes, dozens of people showed up to the Easton Funplex just to hear Icarus deliver a like five minute speech, they had momentum, they really had something when they had their first show back too The aftermath is what killed it... people leaving, never coming back, angles being stunted due to it, Condron flaming out, moving to a cheaper venue and having cheaper shows, talent feeling like they weren't being trained as well as before (And the rumor is that was deliberate so they wouldn't go anywhere else to piggyback on kingoftheindies own rumor) the "Missed season" where Mantis won his long awaited world title at a taped event, Coronado's Roman-esque reign sure aged well too. All that and... well we saw how it came to an end, with a whimper, because the company got SpeakingOuted to hell and everyone quit. I've heard rumblings about CHIKARA and The WrestleFactory making a comeback, but nothing so far has come of it, I know some wrestlers have been literally blackmailed into ever returning to the ring again because of past shit they've done... it's just awful to hear about a company who really re-ignited wrestling for a lot of people during this specific time... in the end, I love that a lot of the veterans still get work, a lot of them in AEW. I'll hold out hope for a Spectral Envoy reunion though somewhere, HATE that once they reformed ROH Original shut down like two months later... In the end, the Shutdown in theory might've been a good idea, especially if Quack was struggling financially like he himself said... but in the end, the damage was done, and CHIKARA kinda bled out by the end. A company that at the time of Never Compromise, someone apparently heard a Sinclair executive who was there say "We invested in the wrong promotion"... really what could have been.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jun 8, 2023 21:36:41 GMT -5
One of those ideas that's so bad that you know that the person responsible had to have been a complete nightmare to communicate with on any professional level. Is this where I bring up that Quack sent out emails to every talent letting everyone publicly know who did well and who f***ed up on shows and exactly how they f***ed up in excruciating detail? Sure sounds like fun communication to me!
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Post by ISO Mid Thigh Pull on Jun 8, 2023 21:38:24 GMT -5
One of those ideas that's so bad that you know that the person responsible had to have been a complete nightmare to communicate with on any professional level. Is this where I bring up that Quack sent out emails to every talent letting everyone publicly know who did well and who f***ed up on shows and exactly how they f***ed up in excruciating detail? Sure sounds like fun communication to me! Fenix getting the real life equivalent of someone telling you "watch your f***ing language f***er" when he got ejected from a show for cursing will never leave me
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jun 8, 2023 21:40:13 GMT -5
I think the issue was that CHIKARA had been relatively hot before the shutdown. Yeah things had become a bit of mess leading up to it, but everything about it was so weird. Of course the other negative was during the angle a lot of negative things about Quack came out and some people who were fairly prominent before hand left. The comeback had a lot of hype, but the Flood angle ending fairly abruptly lost momentum, then they gained it back but seemed like after Top Banana because of talent leaving for various reasons (a big rumor I remember being that WWE was telling CHIKARA talent that they needed to work more outside of CHIKARA to get signed... again just a rumor) but it always felt like to me that something was lost that CHIKARA never quite recovered from because of the shutdown angle no matter how good some angles got after. I suspect it's more true than rumour (even if it maybe wasn't outright stated) when you consider the hype and interest the company used to generate during King of Trios, and the complete lack of pure Chikara talent who ended up really going anywhere at a major level without doing extended runs elsewhere first. There is another rumor on top of that, which I edited in my post but will also say here, that talent were deliberately not being trained like they were before so they would not be as standout in ring and wouldn't get bookings outside of CHIKARA as frequently Essentially trying to make sure storylines and ideas wouldn't get cut off midway through because they were getting better time and exposure than CHIKARA could give them anymore.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jun 8, 2023 21:42:41 GMT -5
Is this where I bring up that Quack sent out emails to every talent letting everyone publicly know who did well and who f***ed up on shows and exactly how they f***ed up in excruciating detail? Sure sounds like fun communication to me! Fenix getting the real life equivalent of someone telling you "watch your f***ing language f***er" when he got ejected from a show for cursing will never leave me Kodama of The Batiri said a swear at a show because he took a bump awkwardly and I guess it hurt He was "killed off" and never brought back to a show. The Batiri do not have a lot of positive things to say about CHIKARA. As for third member Kobald? Well he's a woman abuser, and verbally and physically abused his handicapped girlfriend, so he can rot in a sack, and everyone who worked with him seems to agree, lol
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jun 8, 2023 22:33:06 GMT -5
I think the issue was that CHIKARA had been relatively hot before the shutdown. Yeah things had become a bit of mess leading up to it, but everything about it was so weird. Of course the other negative was during the angle a lot of negative things about Quack came out and some people who were fairly prominent before hand left. The comeback had a lot of hype, but the Flood angle ending fairly abruptly lost momentum, then they gained it back but seemed like after Top Banana because of talent leaving for various reasons (a big rumor I remember being that WWE was telling CHIKARA talent that they needed to work more outside of CHIKARA to get signed... again just a rumor) but it always felt like to me that something was lost that CHIKARA never quite recovered from because of the shutdown angle no matter how good some angles got after. I suspect it's more true than rumour (even if it maybe wasn't outright stated) when you consider the hype and interest the company used to generate during King of Trios, and the complete lack of pure Chikara talent who ended up really going anywhere at a major level without doing extended runs elsewhere first. I know I've seen shoot interviews where wrestlers complained about working CHIKARA trained people because they were trained in Lucha Libre at first so they were trained to work the other side of the body and just bump differently so it caused issues, and Quack also was kind of like a mafia boss with his trainees when they took other bookings which caused a lot of companies to not want to book CHIKARA guys. I remember when Vin Gerrard got booked at some indies when he was getting momentum from being unmasked and it caused a lot of issues because Quack wanted him booked a specific way with those companies and promoters just said Vin isn't worth dealing with Quack. There's also rumors that Silver Ant was told by WWE he had everything they wanted in a wrestler look and promo wise but they just couldn't judge him off of CHIKARA work which is why he left. Of course there's also the fact that Quack even if he was struggling with money was notoriously cheap with paying the regular talent. One of the reasons Tim Donst didn't come back after the shut down was Quack wanted him to give him his gig with I believe AIW and stop working death matches (could have been AAW I don't remember which) and Donst was making more money outside of CHIKARA and decided going back just wasn't worth giving up the other gigs. Bummer too cause again I'd say CHIKARA from probably 2008 through 2013 was creatively the best indy fed and there absolutely was room for them to grow and become bigger, but Quack was the problem. I'd love for there to sometime be a documentary on everything behind the scenes on CHIKARA, but even before Speaking Out there was so many bad rumors around Quack and his inner circle
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Johnny B. Decent
Patti Mayonnaise
Had one once
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Post by Johnny B. Decent on Jun 8, 2023 22:37:32 GMT -5
My dad had just died, so I really didn't give a shit about much about anything during that time.
In hindsight; a total, massive blunder.
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Post by Starshine on Jun 8, 2023 22:46:32 GMT -5
I suspect it's more true than rumour (even if it maybe wasn't outright stated) when you consider the hype and interest the company used to generate during King of Trios, and the complete lack of pure Chikara talent who ended up really going anywhere at a major level without doing extended runs elsewhere first. I know I've seen shoot interviews where wrestlers complained about working CHIKARA trained people because they were trained in Lucha Libre at first so they were trained to work the other side of the body and just bump differently so it caused issues, and Quack also was kind of like a mafia boss with his trainees when they took other bookings which caused a lot of companies to not want to book CHIKARA guys. I remember when Vin Gerrard got booked at some indies when he was getting momentum from being unmasked and it caused a lot of issues because Quack wanted him booked a specific way with those companies and promoters just said Vin isn't worth dealing with Quack. There's also rumors that Silver Ant was told by WWE he had everything they wanted in a wrestler look and promo wise but they just couldn't judge him off of CHIKARA work which is why he left. Of course there's also the fact that Quack even if he was struggling with money was notoriously cheap with paying the regular talent. One of the reasons Tim Donst didn't come back after the shut down was Quack wanted him to give him his gig with I believe AIW and stop working death matches (could have been AAW I don't remember which) and Donst was making more money outside of CHIKARA and decided going back just wasn't worth giving up the other gigs. Bummer too cause again I'd say CHIKARA from probably 2008 through 2013 was creatively the best indy fed and there absolutely was room for them to grow and become bigger, but Quack was the problem. I'd love for there to sometime be a documentary on everything behind the scenes on CHIKARA, but even before Speaking Out there was so many bad rumors around Quack and his inner circle I'm not even sure if Lucha style is the issue, considering Dragon Gate trains within the same school of thought and has never has that sort of problem. Also the two companies did work together quite a bit early on when DG was trying to pursue the US market and develop DGUSA, and yet the only 'Chikara' guy who got full tours with them was Brodie Lee, who wasn't even trained at the school. If there were any sort of equivalent quality in training, then you'd imagine a relationship between the two companies would have been pursued by DG then; instead Chikara got about a years run in DGUSA and was then left off the shows for other talent instead (i.e. Chikara alumni who weren't trained by Quack: Gargano, Taylor, and Ricochet).
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Post by Hernan on Jun 8, 2023 22:54:28 GMT -5
Damn man, I feel really old. I didn't get into CHIKARA until 2015, so hearing bits and pieces years later and while going on a watch on the last few shows ever held a few years back, I had pain in my stomach because I knew beforehand their eventual fate. CHIKARA was one of the first indie promotions (outside of the main ones) that I felt in love. Nowadays, even though some wrestlers/concepts that came from there I am fan, I cannot held them as I used to years ago. I suspect it's more true than rumour (even if it maybe wasn't outright stated) when you consider the hype and interest the company used to generate during King of Trios, and the complete lack of pure Chikara talent who ended up really going anywhere at a major level without doing extended runs elsewhere first. I know I've seen shoot interviews where wrestlers complained about working CHIKARA trained people because they were trained in Lucha Libre at first so they were trained to work the other side of the body and just bump differently so it caused issues, and Quack also was kind of like a mafia boss with his trainees when they took other bookings which caused a lot of companies to not want to book CHIKARA guys. I remember when Vin Gerrard got booked at some indies when he was getting momentum from being unmasked and it caused a lot of issues because Quack wanted him booked a specific way with those companies and promoters just said Vin isn't worth dealing with Quack. There's also rumors that Silver Ant was told by WWE he had everything they wanted in a wrestler look and promo wise but they just couldn't judge him off of CHIKARA work which is why he left. Of course there's also the fact that Quack even if he was struggling with money was notoriously cheap with paying the regular talent. One of the reasons Tim Donst didn't come back after the shut down was Quack wanted him to give him his gig with I believe AIW and stop working death matches (could have been AAW I don't remember which) and Donst was making more money outside of CHIKARA and decided going back just wasn't worth giving up the other gigs. Bummer too cause again I'd say CHIKARA from probably 2008 through 2013 was creatively the best indy fed and there absolutely was room for them to grow and become bigger, but Quack was the problem. I'd love for there to sometime be a documentary on everything behind the scenes on CHIKARA, but even before Speaking Out there was so many bad rumors around Quack and his inner circle I've always wondered why Donst disappeared from CHIKARA after the shutdown considering he was still appearing in the Wrestling Is... sister promotions. I think the "working death match" thing is laughable because years before that, UltraMantis Black participated in IWA Deep South Carnage Cup 2007 of all places but at the same time, I think the relationship between Deep South and CHIKARA played a role. However, CHIKARA people working in death matches shouldn't be a detractor.
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Rave
El Dandy
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Post by Rave on Jun 8, 2023 23:57:59 GMT -5
Oh boy, this subject again! So I'd been flirting with Chikara since around 2011, but it was this that actually pulled me in. I was on the figurative frontlines for pretty much the entire thing. Coordinated link lists, brainstormed timelines, manned Twitter for the scavenger hunt, wrote a ridiculous amount of stuff, the works. This is still my favorite piece out of everything I've written. Even with how involved I was, I still maintain that a lot more could've been done on the Chikara end of things to include everyone that couldn't be physically present. There's only so much fans could do to try to bridge that gap. One of those ideas that's so bad that you know that the person responsible had to have been a complete nightmare to communicate with on any professional level. So is this when I mention that Quackenbush used to post to the 101 message board using multiple accounts just so he could steer the narrative? Because yeah, he did that. And not just on the ones designated for wrestlers, either. I can name three accounts from memory (and, looking at the timestamps of last login on the 101 on a lark, am pretty sure of a fourth) that supposedly belonged to fans but were really him, outed to me by a former 101 mod who used to post here. One of those was Thom, the subject of the scavenger hunt. Given his role, no surprise he wasn't actually a real person, right? From what I heard after the fact, physical!Thom was an unmasked Frightmare.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jun 9, 2023 1:37:51 GMT -5
It's tragic in the Shakespearean sense; Quack really is capable of making fantastic stories, and the whole idea of a wrestling ARG was a very good one and really hit the zeitgeist. But he was absolutely never going to pull it off, because he didn't really understand the online nature of it, and he did absolutely nothing to keep people interested enough to dig. His biggest mistake was being so committed to kayfabe that he refused to make it clear that the Wrestling Is shows were Chikara. That needed to be apparent, and absolutely they should have filled up the canceled Chikara dates on the schedule with Wrestling Is shows, so fans in those towns didn't feel rejected. He did not need to kill all his momentum with Chikara, if people had been led to understand that they were still getting their Chikara fix with "Chikara" shut down.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jun 9, 2023 6:04:38 GMT -5
Oh boy, this subject again! So I'd been flirting with Chikara since around 2011, but it was this that actually pulled me in. I was on the figurative frontlines for pretty much the entire thing. Coordinated link lists, brainstormed timelines, manned Twitter for the scavenger hunt, wrote a ridiculous amount of stuff, the works. This is still my favorite piece out of everything I've written. Even with how involved I was, I still maintain that a lot more could've been done on the Chikara end of things to include everyone that couldn't be physically present. There's only so much fans could do to try to bridge that gap. One of those ideas that's so bad that you know that the person responsible had to have been a complete nightmare to communicate with on any professional level. So is this when I mention that Quackenbush used to post to the 101 message board using multiple accounts just so he could steer the narrative? Because yeah, he did that. And not just on the ones designated for wrestlers, either. I can name three accounts from memory (and, looking at the timestamps of last login on the 101 on a lark, am pretty sure of a fourth) that supposedly belonged to fans but were really him, outed to me by a former 101 mod who used to post here. One of those was Thom, the subject of the scavenger hunt. Given his role, no surprise he wasn't actually a real person, right? From what I heard after the fact, physical!Thom was an unmasked Frightmare. This goes deeper, not only is it true but some of the accounts Quack manned outright buried certain talents Crossbones, Tim Donst, and some others were buried by "Fans" for one thing or the other, idk if it was supposed to incite conversation or argument, but not only is that totally inappropriate if the people you booked didn't know you were doing that, but outright toxic to the boards to be going "That wrestler sucks" just to get people to argue with you and derail a thread I heard from people that most every CHIKARA Wrestler account on there also had Quack access, so if they were actually posting on the Board as themselves (Sometimes they were), other times it was also just Quack pretending to be them. I assume they knew about that and it was just to try and throw some crumbs storyline wise... but those other accounts? Yikes lol Once again Rave I appreciate that you are the CHIKARA encyclopedia, and also, I was on Twitter watching those Scavenger hunts LIVE, you were doing the wrestling gods work during that era lol
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jun 9, 2023 6:12:14 GMT -5
It's tragic in the Shakespearean sense; Quack really is capable of making fantastic stories, and the whole idea of a wrestling ARG was a very good one and really hit the zeitgeist. But he was absolutely never going to pull it off, because he didn't really understand the online nature of it, and he did absolutely nothing to keep people interested enough to dig. His biggest mistake was being so committed to kayfabe that he refused to make it clear that the Wrestling Is shows were Chikara. That needed to be apparent, and absolutely they should have filled up the canceled Chikara dates on the schedule with Wrestling Is shows, so fans in those towns didn't feel rejected. He did not need to kill all his momentum with Chikara, if people had been led to understand that they were still getting their Chikara fix with "Chikara" shut down. Wrestling Is also did terrible attendance wise outside of a few of them I believe. Art was helmed by Colt at the beginning I believe so it did ok and actually stood out, Fun was the closest one to CHIKARA that people clung to so they felt adjacent enough that they got fans (Even tried to revive but it was under Kobald so I'm glad it failed), but the other ones? One was basically just a feeder promotion for Ring of Honor rookies and Delirious, and then there was one other that was like Midwest run that only ran like two shows, and the attendances were so bad and the production so shit that I don't think either of them actually got DVDs of their cards... and ironically, that was the first promotion shut down by Condor and The Flood, so it was like, the domino effect to the return storyline lol.
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