Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,526
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Apr 22, 2007 14:47:44 GMT -5
I do see the problem with guys like Hayes and Dusty, as they already have high profile jobs, but I still think some of the more promo challenged guys (Shelton for example) would benifit from having someone work with them. Im not saying a long process, maybe just on the road or something. The other problem is that the wrestlers don't do their own promos anymore either. On Raw I think this is a huge problem when you have somebody like Gerwitz going "let's see how many times i can bring up Edge being with Lita in one show" I agree with you, scripting every detail of a promo has killed the art of cutting a good promo. Guys like Flair,Anderson, Dusty etc went out there and ad libbed a lot of what they said. The best thing to do is to go back to using outlines. Give the guys a rough idea of what they're going to say, but dont force feed them lines. That would help things along greatly. But in a lot of case, that wouldnt save the day though. You still need charisma and you need to know how to sell what you're saying. THAT'S where my earlier mentioned idea comes into play
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Daemon
Trap-Jaw
Pimpin aint easy
Posts: 299
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Post by Daemon on Apr 22, 2007 14:51:35 GMT -5
Flairs promos are all WOOOOO and screaming with an occasional elbow drop to a jacket Rocks were cool, collected and hella funny Im sorry, but I have to ask, are you HIGH?! I may have voted for The Rock, but I will not lie and say that Flair entertained me with his promos, and he did a WHOLE HELL of a lot more then just scream woo and elbow drop his jacket. Do you seriously believe that is all Flair did?
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Albino Heat
Don Corleone
You're a nasty bastard, and your momma said so!!
Posts: 2,095
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Post by Albino Heat on Apr 22, 2007 15:06:33 GMT -5
I went with Flair, since the Rock (I feel) started to cater his promos more to the audience than to the person/angle he was supposed to.
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Post by skillz on Apr 22, 2007 15:36:16 GMT -5
I couldnt agree more. The Rock did cut some great promos but then he became a one trick pony. Every promo involved him babbling about anus',strudel, pie, calling someone gay/hermaphrodite, money's ass etc. (It amuses me that a lot of the people who crap on Cena's promos loved everything the Rock ever said. Must be some nice rose colored glasses you're wearing) See, I never understood this logic. If Bob Saget played the role of Archie Bunker, would it be as funny or as effective? If you're answer to that question is no, then you'll understand why Cena gets crapped on while Rock is praised. It's two different people. Rock has more charisma and a better delivery. His timing is excellent. He understands that the point of a promo is to hook the audience and in some cases make them feel part of the show (i.e. when Rock pauses to soak the crowd reaction). In other words, Rock is considered funny because he delivers his material much better than John Cena. It doesn't go anywhere beyond that. If Shelton Benjamin started doing promos like 1980's Hulk Hogan, I'm not going to say "well, I liked when Hogan did it so I have to like when Benjamin does it". It's two different people, two different eras, and two different styles. As for this poll, I'd say Flair did a better wrestling promo. Rock was more entertaining overall. Tough choice. Can't go wrong with either one. The reason why I like guys like Rock is because he involves the audience. That's why they are out there in the first place.
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Post by Palatial Regalia on Apr 22, 2007 15:46:42 GMT -5
Rock is a better actor. Flair could only ever do one thing and thats be the limousine drivin, jet flyin, take a trip on space mountain, son of a gun, The Nature Boy Ric Flair. Thats about all of his promo. Don't get me wrong Ric Flair used to be my favorite wrestler, but Rock is still a better actor.
I can agree with skillz on audience participation, its one of the best ways to become over with the crowd is to get them involved.
Also I dont think Ric Flair has done any really good promos (nothing outstanding from any others hes done, that is) since WCW.
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NIXON
Unicron
Hail to the Chief Bootknocker
Posts: 3,354
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Post by NIXON on Apr 22, 2007 15:51:24 GMT -5
I...uh...see the thing is.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Prove me wrong. Austin has always been gold on the mic. Its pretty hard to prove an opinion wrong...but I dont see Austin being in the same boat promo wise as either one of these guys. He was good, probably could have been great, but the Stone Cold character wasnt one that was gonna spit out amazing promos. Aside from the first Austin 3:16 promo, all he ever talked about was beer and ass whuppin, which fit his character and made sense and all, but did not usually make for earth shattering promos IMO. His ECW stuff was top notch though, and showed that he had the ability to be great, but he never built upon that because of his character.
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Post by hawkfan44 on Apr 22, 2007 17:21:19 GMT -5
well, seeing how I've never really seen Flair in his prime, and The Rock is my fav. wrestler of all time, for me its definitely The Rock. I mean who else can make an entire arena yell "Popcorn Fart" at someone; that skit about 2 years back where it was Rock, Eugene and the Coach. then again the few times they had Rock and Jericho interact at the same time = PRICELESS
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Tom
Don Corleone
Power Of Station.
Posts: 2,018
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Post by Tom on Apr 22, 2007 19:08:35 GMT -5
Rock is a better actor. Flair could only ever do one thing and thats be the limousine drivin, jet flyin, take a trip on space mountain, son of a gun, The Nature Boy Ric Flair. Thats about all of his promo. Don't get me wrong Ric Flair used to be my favorite wrestler, but Rock is still a better actor. I can agree with skillz on audience participation, its one of the best ways to become over with the crowd is to get them involved. Also I dont think Ric Flair has done any really good promos (nothing outstanding from any others hes done, that is) since WCW. I think its the other way around. The Rock, as funny and skilled as he is, cannot do mic work without charisma. The Rock never did 'downtrodden', (or really even 'quiet'), 'desperate', plus a whole slew of other methods of delivery. In fact I don't ever recall seeing emotion from The Rock. Flair's mic work is multi-dimensional, but the problem is it is only really apparent through available materials, and since his character 'developed' with his WWE tenure. The earlier stuff is mostly the 'jet flying' repertoire, and thus, can't be a summation of Flair's mic work as a whole. I suppose the same could be said of The Rock, as it's all down to the circumstances and what is required of you depending on the storyline, or quite simply how your character works with the crowd. We haven't necessarily seen The Rock in as many acting 'situations' because he was never required to do so in that era. Though, given evidenced mic work from both individuals based on what has been required of both of them, I think that Flair's work is far more varied and detailed, with greater range in performance and the exact same amount of quality. Whether that's simply down to time and opportunity, we can't say. As for Flair not having any good promos for a while - he hasn't had the need to, because he's had barely any matches [requiring] hype. Those that were in need of it, most of the mic work went to others - i.e. the feud with Triple H, where it was HHH's character that required the mic time to convey his motives. All Flair had to do was fight. Though, still, revisit that Taboo Tuesday match and simply watch how Flair is speaking to Triple H (off the mic) before the match gets underway. The Rock couldn't do stuff like that in any realistic way to quite the same degree. He'd just raise his eyebrow... and crap yeah, it was funny, but you never really saw him do much that wasn't funny.
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rra
King Koopa
Posts: 10,145
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Post by rra on Apr 22, 2007 20:13:44 GMT -5
This poll is close, and here is some news from the promoter....the winner will unfortunately have to battle again, against another great promo-master for the promo-belt.
If Rock maintains and wins(43-41 vote so far) then he'll have to go down into the Pit....
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Apr 22, 2007 23:20:39 GMT -5
Flair.
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Outsider744
Team Rocket
Take that Don West! ...AND THAT! AND THAT! yeah...how do you like those rookie cards
Posts: 755
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Post by Outsider744 on Apr 22, 2007 23:25:07 GMT -5
Hmmm I couldn't decide so I chose Flair to make it closer ;D
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Post by Rorschach on Apr 22, 2007 23:37:31 GMT -5
Yes....Piper, I do believe, would have. The man was, and to a certain extent, is still, dynamite on the mic. Piper's DVD had quite a few of his promos on it. **Mini-rant time** With so many current guys seemingly having no idea how to cut anything resemling a good promo, why doesnt the WWE use some of the road agents/legends to help stop this problem? You're telling me that Piper, Arn (BTW: a guy who somehow never gets the right credit for his years of terrific promos), Dusty, Hayes etc couldnt help some of the promo challenged guys out? I think they should have something like a required class in OVW. Call it "promo cutting 101". **End mini rant** I've been saying this for a long, long, time. If you can teach someone to do a dropkick, why the hell can't you teach them how to cut a promo? Even the other active wrestlers could help out the younger guys. Guys like Edge, HHH, HBK, and Estrada are GOLD on the mic, and they travel with the boys anyway. So what would be the harm in THEM giving the rooks a few pointers?
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Post by Mayonnaise on Apr 22, 2007 23:50:36 GMT -5
I've been saying this for a long, long, time. If you can teach someone to do a dropkick, why the hell can't you teach them how to cut a promo? Even the other active wrestlers could help out the younger guys. Guys like Edge, HHH, HBK, and Estrada are GOLD on the mic, and they travel with the boys anyway. So what would be the harm in THEM giving the rooks a few pointers? I read that they do but, a lot of what you need to deliver a great promo can't be taught person to person. You either learn through experience (like timing and unless your Lashley you don't get that chance) or you have to have come naturally (like charisma). People can give you pointers and things like that but, unless you get a chance to work on it, they wont help.
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Post by Rorschach on Apr 22, 2007 23:57:05 GMT -5
I've been saying this for a long, long, time. If you can teach someone to do a dropkick, why the hell can't you teach them how to cut a promo? Even the other active wrestlers could help out the younger guys. Guys like Edge, HHH, HBK, and Estrada are GOLD on the mic, and they travel with the boys anyway. So what would be the harm in THEM giving the rooks a few pointers? I read that they do but, a lot of what you need to deliver a great promo can't be taught person to person. You either learn through experience (like timing and unless your Lashley you don't get that chance) or you have to have come naturally (like charisma). People can give you pointers and things like that but, unless you get a chance to work on it, they wont help. Ok cool, but they could practice in their hotel rooms, or on each other in the back.....I agree with you, but there are things that can be done to help these kids get better on the stick. The only thing is, and I agree with you on this, is that you are either born with charisma, or you're not. You can practice all you want, and you can learn to act, and sell, and even how to SPEAK a promo, but emotion, delivery, and the connection with the crowd seems to be something you either HAVE or you don't.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Apr 23, 2007 0:05:12 GMT -5
I read that they do but, a lot of what you need to deliver a great promo can't be taught person to person. You either learn through experience (like timing and unless your Lashley you don't get that chance) or you have to have come naturally (like charisma). People can give you pointers and things like that but, unless you get a chance to work on it, they wont help. Ok cool, but they could practice in their hotel rooms, or on each other in the back.....I agree with you, but there are things that can be done to help these kids get better on the stick. They could practice in the back with each other or in the mirror but, you more than likely wont get the honest feedback that a live crowd gives you. They should really be given time on house shows or around the dark matches on TV days where the live crowd can respond to it and if its horrible than no TV time was wasted on it.
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rra
King Koopa
Posts: 10,145
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Post by rra on Apr 23, 2007 3:12:51 GMT -5
Ok cool, but they could practice in their hotel rooms, or on each other in the back.....I agree with you, but there are things that can be done to help these kids get better on the stick. They could practice in the back with each other or in the mirror but, you more than likely wont get the honest feedback that a live crowd gives you. They should really be given time on house shows or around the dark matches on TV days where the live crowd can respond to it and if its horrible than no TV time was wasted on it. I concur.
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Post by Loki on Apr 23, 2007 3:59:17 GMT -5
Geez, I can't believe Rock is winning this poll Flair has cut good-to-great promos for three decades, always putting over himself, his allies, his opponent, the storyline and the match. Rock was more like a comedy stand-up trying (too hard) to be funny. I fail to see how a man whose repertoire mostly consisted in variation of ass/penis references and tons of catchphrases can even be compared to a man who could make look interesting a program involving a cardboard. Don't get fooled by the WOOOOOs and the jet flyin' limousine ridin' litany... That are Flair's signatures, but are the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. Take a look to Flair's promo on Hogan at Funeral Parlor: it sounds real and spot-on (and probably Flair kinda felt like that anyway). His program with Macho Man and Elizabeth was "classic" Nature Boy too, with the supposed affair and the Casanova attitude. The mini-program with Savage and Warrior had the trickster Flair at work. All of them had some bits of crazy Flair. So, little more than ONE YEAR, Ric Flair worked 4 different type of angles, requiring different approach. I'm keeping it WWF as I'm more familiar with it, and because the 4 Horsemen don't even need to be used to make the point I honestly can't remember the Rock having so much variety... Funny the first time, but his routing got old and predictable to me. I can enjoy a witty remark in a promo, but the goal has to be "selling the match/angle".
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Mitch 4:20
Don Corleone
The Cherry One
Posts: 2,062
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Post by Mitch 4:20 on Apr 23, 2007 4:20:53 GMT -5
"Well ya know something? The Rock says this...(monkey reference) (body part reference) (catchphrase) (catchphrase) (same monkey reference) (different body part reference) I'm going to win 1-2-3. If ya smellllllllllll what The Rock is cookin'!" The Rock cuts the same promo every time. He just moves around the same phrases (lay the smackdown, rudypoo candyass, jabroni, pie...and that is all) Ric Flair on the other hand actually makes you care when he talks, sure he can make you laugh. But when he's on the mic you listen because you know it'll be good. I couldnt agree more. The Rock did cut some great promos but then he became a one trick pony. Every promo involved him babbling about anus',strudel, pie, calling someone gay/hermaphrodite, money's ass etc. (It amuses me that a lot of the people who crap on Cena's promos loved everything the Rock ever said. Must be some nice rose colored glasses you're wearing) And then there's Flair. He could cut a promo that would make you hate his guts AND wish you were him at the same time. I could watch a DVD of just Flair promos. He put whoever he was feuding with over just by cutting promos on/about them. Bottom line:When it comes to promos, Rock was good ....but Flair was GREAT Rock=Entertaining Cena=Not so much
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Post by SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman on Apr 23, 2007 6:42:12 GMT -5
The Rock for THIS thing alone. ( yeah, I know the vid is about Kane but seriously, that Kamala impersonnation )
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Desi
Dennis Stamp
Do Not Approve
Posts: 4,520
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Post by Desi on Apr 23, 2007 11:41:12 GMT -5
I wanna say Rock, but I don't think I've seen enough of Flair's 80's/90's horsemen promos to fairly judge this.
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