WWE Guys Getting A Larger Push In TNA Is a Myth

[toodarkmark]

I think you're just discussing semantics. Of course some ex - WWE guys are getting a push, but the concept behind the thread is that they are not getting pushes JUST BECAUSE they had a push in the WWE.

Someone has already mentioned the reasons someone like an Angle or Booker will get a push. But just because someone has competed in the WWE does not automatically end their careers.

Before McMahon ruined wrestling, wrestlers used to go from different areas when their gimmick got burned out or they got bored of the territory. McMahon ruined all that, and in a way ruined the freedom of what wrestlers could do in the business. Anytime anyone tried to compete, he does everything in their power to ruin them. This turns on many WWE marks, but personally has made me sick since 84.

Now a guy leaves THE territory, because mcMahon ruined the landscape of freedom in pro wrestling, or at least the ability to make a living unless you work for them. Here's this other promotion thats become competition and gives guys an opportunity to get out of the unhappiness or boredom or burnout they may feel with the WWE, and dumb ass marks get critical of ANY signing.

I hate Blackdust, Rikishi, VKM, Test as much as anyone and thought they were mistakes. But to read some comments by people they seem to have this ridiculous idea that TNA continues to push WWE guys ahead of TNA guys is a joke. And perpetuated by people who really dont understand pro wrestling and what it WAS. Not the monopolistic circus McMahon made it.

Nice of him to have his signature event at the home base of the little competition. Just to prove to everyone he is NUMBER one and no one should dare compete with him and actually create an atmosphere where wrestlers actually have the FREEDOM to not work for him and MAYBE make a living elsewhere.

hollywood said:

thestinger said:

I don't think it has anything to do with being a "WWE" guy. More like being a big star in the business.

If you're a star in the business, TNA will likely give you a shot. Sting's a WCW guy. ECW guys like Sabu got pushes in TNA without having worked for WWE.

"Overblown" is an understatement.

People freak out each time the Hearthrobs or Joey Matthews get a tryout match with TNA. By the way none of those three have been offered contracts as of yet because TNA supposedly wasn't that impressed. That right there shoots down the theory that being former WWE makes you more valuable to TNA than home grown stars.

The 'tenures' of Andrew Martin and Fatu (fewer than 10 appearances combined) proves that TNA does NOT automatically sign former WWE stars. Bizarrely enough people use them to try to claim the opposite.

Not to pat myself on the back or anything, but if you'll recall, after I saw Fatu's first match, I said he would be gone VERY soon, and look what happened?

Hey, like I said, I'm not denying that people may be overly critical of TNA for hiring a number of WWE stars. And I'm not arguing for or against their practices in this case--I thought I'd try to cut back for the moment. But I still think it's fair to say that "TNA pushes former WWE guys" is not a myth. Granted, had WCW survived instead and TNA were competing with them, it would be "TNA pushes former WCW guys" or whatever other promotion might've survived the "war." The fact that WWE's name is in that argument is just a matter of happenstance, yes, but it doesn't change my argument.

It's still not a myth. Perhaps it should be a bit clearer, though, like "TNA pushes popular WWE guys."

[toodarkmark]

And not to make a joke out of it. But imagine if Superman and Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash had ONLY gotten pushes in the Justice Society. And when the updates were happening they were like "Well Justice Society already used them, we have to make COMPELETLY new characters for the update."

Thats the mentality. Superman had heat in the JSA and had heat again the JLA. On the other hand, Spectre and Dr Fate did not have the same heat and did not get the update for the JLA Silver Age. Later on they were used, but away from the JLA.

The concept behind what Im saying it, is that sometimes ideas/wrestlers outlive their initial place and time, and deserve another chance/update if they can be a draw.

hollywood said:

thestinger said:

I don't think it has anything to do with being a "WWE" guy. More like being a big star in the business.

If you're a star in the business, TNA will likely give you a shot. Sting's a WCW guy. ECW guys like Sabu got pushes in TNA without having worked for WWE.

"Overblown" is an understatement.

People freak out each time the Hearthrobs or Joey Matthews get a tryout match with TNA. By the way none of those three have been offered contracts as of yet because TNA supposedly wasn't that impressed. That right there shoots down the theory that being former WWE makes you more valuable to TNA than home grown stars.

The 'tenures' of Andrew Martin and Fatu (fewer than 10 appearances combined) proves that TNA does NOT automatically sign former WWE stars. Bizarrely enough people use them to try to claim the opposite.

Not to pat myself on the back or anything, but if you'll recall, after I saw Fatu's first match, I said he would be gone VERY soon, and look what happened?

Hey, like I said, I'm not denying that people may be overly critical of TNA for hiring a number of WWE stars. And I'm not arguing for or against their practices in this case--I thought I'd try to cut back for the moment. But I still think it's fair to say that "TNA pushes former WWE guys" is not a myth. Granted, had WCW survived instead and TNA were competing with them, it would be "TNA pushes former WCW guys" or whatever other promotion might've survived the "war." The fact that WWE's name is in that argument is just a matter of happenstance, yes, but it doesn't change my argument.

It's still not a myth. Perhaps it should be a bit clearer, though, like "TNA pushes popular WWE guys."

[Joekishi]

As long as the crowd gives the former WWE guys as good a reaction as they get i see no reason why they shouldn't be at the forefront.

Bobby Roode, Kaz, Joe, and others were built up eventually to take on these guys and I like eventual/slow build rather than a stratuspheric push for these guys that nobody in the casual audience really cares about.

you have to build recognition before you give guys like Robert Roode or the MCMG as big a push as they got.

with WWE guys and Sting they have guys who already have a built in fanbase and demo.

i see no problem with pushing WWE guys, I just see a problem with how they are pushed

[x]

I don't really care if they are pushing Angle or not.

But what has happened to AJ Styles since his "Mr. TNA, Triple Crown, etc." push? He's in a Tag Team with Tomko.

There should be at least one TNA "homegrown" (Quotation marks because they were stolen from ROH) talent in the main event once every 3-4 months. If you keep having Angle, Sting, Christian, Booker, Nash, Hall and the others in your main event it makes the guys that have been here before them look bad because they can't hang with the older guys.

[Joekishi]

His tag team with tomko gets a lot of prominent tv time. Plus AJ Styles is an excellent tag team wrestler, his style meshes better in a tag team than as a singles, plus he's found his character.

TNA is building steam with having a star studded roster. It's up to them to build on their own homegrown guys next though.

[x]

Look at Samoa Joe.

Undefeated streak going for well over a year. A chance to give a young guy a huge rub. What happens? Angle comes in and beats him for it. Where's Joe? On PPV against Robert Roode.

AJ and Joe were the two biggest "homegrown" stars that TNA had and now AJ is a Tag Team wrestler and Joe still hasn't gotten a World Title reign.

[comahan]

Wrestling Roode (who is being pushed up the card, its not Joe being pushed down) one month after being the sub main event on their biggest PPV of the year and ending Christians 2 year unpinned/submitted streak.

Hes still a main eventer.

[hollywood]

comahan said:

Wrestling Roode (who is being pushed up the card, its not Joe being pushed down) one month after being the sub main event on their biggest PPV of the year and ending Christians 2 year unpinned/submitted streak.

Hes still a main eventer.

He's anything but. He was jobbed right the hell out to Angle, he slowly descended into the midcard. Otherwise, he wouldn't be in a match with Roode--push or no push. Maybe they plan to push him back to main event status, but at the moment, Joe is very firmly a midcarder.

[toodarkmark]

Samoa Joe beat Kurt Angle as well. So Samoa Joe NEEDS to be a world champion to be a pushed top guy in the promotion?

So back in the day Ted Dibiase, Curt Hennig, and Rick Rude werent top guys. They never won a world championship.

AJ Styles is a tag team champion, on TV every week and considered one of the top 5 guys in the promotion. But thats not enough. Should he be a world champion? A teased feud with Christian, another top 5 guy just isnt enough.

Its pointless to argue with people who are just hell bent on believing what they want. Other than the World Championship main event populated by superstars not homegrown, most other non homegrowns are jobbing left and right.

Nash hasnt gotten a shot. Didnt Samoa Joe just cleanly pin Christian Cage, the 2nd or 3rd biggest guy in the promotion at their largest PPV? Didnt AJ Styles get involved in the World Championship storyline?

Whatever man. Believe what you will. You aint watching what Im watching.

x said:

Look at Samoa Joe.

Undefeated streak going for well over a year. A chance to give a young guy a huge rub. What happens? Angle comes in and beats him for it. Where's Joe? On PPV against Robert Roode.

AJ and Joe were the two biggest "homegrown" stars that TNA had and now AJ is a Tag Team wrestler and Joe still hasn't gotten a World Title reign.

[toodarkmark]

Really? And Angle never jobbed to Samoa Joe? So Turning Point 2006 never happened where Angle tapped to Joe?

And once again Samoa Joe didnt score a CLEAN pinfall victory over Christian Cage in the second to last match on their biggest PPV of the year just a month ago?

If that mid-card then boy would alot of workers love to be a mid-carder. No offense Hollywood but do you even watch TNA? Dont wanna do a flame thing, just wondering. Its not a bad thing to be a devils advocate, but at least watch the product.

hollywood said:

comahan said:

Wrestling Roode (who is being pushed up the card, its not Joe being pushed down) one month after being the sub main event on their biggest PPV of the year and ending Christians 2 year unpinned/submitted streak.

Hes still a main eventer.

He's anything but. He was jobbed right the hell out to Angle, he slowly descended into the midcard. Otherwise, he wouldn't be in a match with Roode--push or no push. Maybe they plan to push him back to main event status, but at the moment, Joe is very firmly a midcarder.

[comahan]

hollywood said:

comahan said:

Wrestling Roode (who is being pushed up the card, its not Joe being pushed down) one month after being the sub main event on their biggest PPV of the year and ending Christians 2 year unpinned/submitted streak.

Hes still a main eventer.

He's anything but. He was jobbed right the hell out to Angle, he slowly descended into the midcard. Otherwise, he wouldn't be in a match with Roode--push or no push. Maybe they plan to push him back to main event status, but at the moment, Joe is very firmly a midcarder.

When did he slowly descend to midcard? Back when you STILL werent watching? Because since the initial 3 month feud with Angle (where two of those matches were, in fact, main events (him winning one clean), hes;

* Main Evented Destination X against Christian.

* Main evented Lockdown as part of Team Angle.

* Defeated AJ Styles in the second to last match at Sacrifice.

* Main Evented Slammiversary in the KOTM match.

* Main Evented Victory Road in the Match of Champions, winning the Tag Team Championships

* Main Evented Hard Justice against Angle in the All or Nothing Match

* DQ'ed in a match against Christain after hanging him over the ropes in the sub main event of No Surrender

* Defeated Christian via submission to end his 2 year unpinned/submitted streak in the Sub Main Event of BFG.

* Defeated Robert Roode at Genesis after Roode screwed him out of the #1 Contendership.

[Celgress]

toodarkmark said:

Samoa Joe: Who beat Christian Cage clean in last months PPV and lost to Cage by cheating on TV and then cleanly beat another guy getting a huge push. Cant have Joe feud with Angle forever but you better believe he's a top 5 guy in the promotion. He'll be back wrestling for the world title soon enough.

Still think it would have made more sense for Joe to beat Angle 2 out of 3, than for Angle to have beaten Joe 2 out of 3. Let us face facts here; Joe needed that extra win over Angle a lot more than Angle needed it over him. For those that claim it would have taken some of the zing of Angle's fast ball, I counter by saying they could have made it a very close match with a lot of back and forth, thus not harming Angle's drawing power. Besides it would have finally given Joe that championship run that the majority of fans feel is long over due. Even if the third had been a draw, it would have lead to a better outcome in my opinion. There was zero reason for Angle to go over Joe, other than to serve as a launching pad for the terrible time wasting and frankly thus far worthless Karen Angle storyline.

[thestinger]

hollywood said:

It's still not a myth. Perhaps it should be a bit clearer, though, like "TNA pushes popular WWE guys."

And I still say TNA pushes popular wrestlers whether they are ex WCW (Sting) ex ECW (Raven) or ex WWE (Angle/Christian.)

I'm glad you acknowledge TNA takes a lot of unnecessary criticism for this.

I remember a few months ago it seemed like the Internet was literally on fire because TNA had a segment where Team 3D, the Steiner Bros and VKM argued about who was the most dominant tag team in the 90s and which of their former employers (ECW/WCW/WWF) had the best tag division.

There was tons of heat for TNA supposedly ignoring their own tag division. Nobody stopped to realize that the most dominant tag team in TNA history is AMW. The second most dominant is LAX. The third most dominant is Styles & Daniels. The fourth most dominant is the Naturals.

The Steiner Bros, 3D and VKM have never been the most dominant tag team in TNA, and the Outsiders won't be either.

And I don't mean to pile on you, Hollywood, but everyone else is right. If you claim Samoa Joe isn't a main eventer, than neither is Christian because that's who he just finished a months long feud with. You say he's a mid-carder and used the qualifier, "for the moment." Unless by 'the moment' you mean 'last Sunday's card' then you're way off base here.

[hollywood]

comahan said:

hollywood said:

He's anything but. He was jobbed right the hell out to Angle, he slowly descended into the midcard. Otherwise, he wouldn't be in a match with Roode--push or no push. Maybe they plan to push him back to main event status, but at the moment, Joe is very firmly a midcarder.

When did he slowly descend to midcard? Back when you STILL werent watching? Because since the initial 3 month feud with Angle (where two of those matches were, in fact, main events (him winning one clean), hes;

* Main Evented Destination X against Christian.

* Main evented Lockdown as part of Team Angle.

* Defeated AJ Styles in the second to last match at Sacrifice.

* Main Evented Slammiversary in the KOTM match.

* Main Evented Victory Road in the Match of Champions, winning the Tag Team Championships

* Main Evented Hard Justice against Angle in the All or Nothing Match

* DQ'ed in a match against Christain after hanging him over the ropes in the sub main event of No Surrender

* Defeated Christian via submission to end his 2 year unpinned/submitted streak in the Sub Main Event of BFG.

* Defeated Robert Roode at Genesis after Roode screwed him out of the #1 Contendership.

And now he's feuding with a cheap Rick Rude clone solidly below the main event. The seems pretty midcard to me. I don't watch regularly, but I still keep up with them (irregularly).

The day he returns to the main event, I'll relent on this. But he's not a main eventer right now. Close maybe, but still not a main eventer. And his only victory over Angle was with the usual TNA shenanigans, where Angle has at least one solid clean win over him.

[comahan]

hollywood said:

comahan said:

When did he slowly descend to midcard? Back when you STILL werent watching? Because since the initial 3 month feud with Angle (where two of those matches were, in fact, main events (him winning one clean), hes;

* Main Evented Destination X against Christian.

* Main evented Lockdown as part of Team Angle.

* Defeated AJ Styles in the second to last match at Sacrifice.

* Main Evented Slammiversary in the KOTM match.

* Main Evented Victory Road in the Match of Champions, winning the Tag Team Championships

* Main Evented Hard Justice against Angle in the All or Nothing Match

* DQ'ed in a match against Christain after hanging him over the ropes in the sub main event of No Surrender

* Defeated Christian via submission to end his 2 year unpinned/submitted streak in the Sub Main Event of BFG.

* Defeated Robert Roode at Genesis after Roode screwed him out of the #1 Contendership.

And now he's feuding with a cheap Rick Rude clone solidly below the main event. The seems pretty midcard to me. I don't watch regularly, but I still keep up with them (irregularly).

The day he returns to the main event, I'll relent on this. But he's not a main eventer right now. Close maybe, but still not a main eventer. And his only victory over Angle was with the usual TNA shenanigans, where Angle has at least one solid clean win over him.

You should read the spoiler thread then, because that day is soon!

[hollywood]

comahan said:

hollywood said:

And now he's feuding with a cheap Rick Rude clone solidly below the main event. The seems pretty midcard to me. I don't watch regularly, but I still keep up with them (irregularly).

The day he returns to the main event, I'll relent on this. But he's not a main eventer right now. Close maybe, but still not a main eventer. And his only victory over Angle was with the usual TNA shenanigans, where Angle has at least one solid clean win over him.

You should read the spoiler thread then, because that day is soon!

Maybe.

I usually try to avoid spoilers and either watch the show or read the recap after. Since the spoilers rarely accurately describe it. (Recaps may not be much better, but they're still an improvement.)

thestinger said:

And I don't mean to pile on you, Hollywood, but everyone else is right. If you claim Samoa Joe isn't a main eventer, than neither is Christian because that's who he just finished a months long feud with. You say he's a mid-carder and used the qualifier, "for the moment." Unless by 'the moment' you mean 'last Sunday's card' then you're way off base here.

No, I mean ever since he lost to Angle. And I do mean lost. He got one victory through TNA's usual shenanigans, while Angle solidly defeated him, thus ending all the momentum he had going at the time. But maybe that will change this week; TNA has seemed to be trying to elevate Joe back to his original status from what little I've seen.

And Christian has also seemed like a midcarder since losing the title, but I'd given up on TNA by that time, so I can't really say for sure.

[thestinger]

hollywood said:

No, I mean ever since he lost to Angle. And I do mean lost. He got one victory through TNA's usual shenanigans, while Angle solidly defeated him, thus ending all the momentum he had going at the time.

I can't believe I'm going to say this but: you're not entirely wrong.

I believe Joe came out of the first three matches with Angle looking stronger than ever. Each wrestler won a match clean, leading to a 30 minute iron man match that *I* consider to be a draw (Angle tapped out AT the time limit, which should have made it a 3 falls to 3 falls tie.)

TNA was stupid for not portraying it like this, and I think Angle turning heel and winning the title would have made the final fourth match at Hard Justice an amazing blow off to the feud. I was wrong.

Hard Justice was a disaster. A swerve we all saw coming 10 miles away screws Joe out of the belt, and swings the total number of victories to Kurt, even for those of us who consider the iron man match to have been a draw (I'm not the only one.)

hollywood said:

And Christian has also seemed like a midcarder since losing the title, but I'd given up on TNA by that time, so I can't really say for sure.

I wish you hadn't said that. Now somebody's going to respond with a list of all the ppvs that Christian's main evented recently. He's not a midcarder by any stretch. But since you've given up on the company, you'd have no way to really know.

[Rube]

hollywood said:

And Christian has also seemed like a midcarder since losing the title, but I'd given up on TNA by that time, so I can't really say for sure.

Why say it at all then?

[comahan]

When you say TNA's usual shenanigans... there was a ref bump, yes. But it wasn't one that had Joe tapping while the ref was out or anything. Angle tapped while the ref was out. Then when the ref was back up, Joe made Angle tap again. Joe beat Angle twice that match, and Angle even got in a low blow when the ref was out. If anything, the 'shenanigans' made Joe look a hell of a lot better cause he straight up beat Angle twice in one match without cheating, while Angle WAS cheating.

Edit: Im talking about Joe's win at Turning Point... are you?

[ChibiDiablo]

toodarkmark said:

Samoa Joe: Who beat Christian Cage clean in last months PPV and lost to Cage by cheating on TV and then cleanly beat another guy getting a huge push. Cant have Joe feud with Angle forever but you better believe he's a top 5 guy in the promotion. He'll be back wrestling for the world title soon enough.

Robert Roode: Who was brought up to Samoa Joe's level, Joe was not brought down to his. If you believe that, then youre a victim of your own self fullfilling prophecy. If a TNA guy is hot and getting a push, does he need to feud with a brought in WWE guy to get higher up on the card? Or can now we have him do a mini feud with Joe where Joe beats him clean, but Roode looks strong and on his way up? No you would rather he feuds with Rikishi?

AJ Styles: This guy is on TV all the time. His character is way over now, without being the babyface amazing athlete. And they are teasing a Christian-AJ Feud.

Kaz - Who was in WWE for a minute, but a TNA made guy. He just beat Cage in the second to last match on the PPV in a ladder match.

MotorCityMachineGuns - Who cleanly pinned the Dudleyz in the middle of the ring. Lots of TV time. Shirts are number one sellers.

LAX - Although they didnt appear on the PPV, these guys have been on Impact main events, and are really over and being pushed to the top.

Jay Lethal: It is a play on a classic character, but did that same play work with Austin Aries? No. Lethal got over with the character and is on TV every week and pushed.

Abyss is constantly in feuds and on TV. Eric Young and James Storm are getting a ton of TV time now as well.

None of those guys have been tna world champ in the last couple of years but Rhyno, Christian and Kurt Angle have, except Abyss who lost it pretty much straight away