Limey
Unicron
It's been awhile.
Posts: 3,062
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Post by Limey on Nov 14, 2007 11:06:18 GMT -5
Quote first, then refute. Backtracking makes brain hurt.
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hollywood
King Koopa
the bullet dodger
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Post by hollywood on Nov 14, 2007 12:30:34 GMT -5
A little off topic I know...Regarding Samoa Joe: As much as I love the guy, if TNA wants to get ahead, the last thing they should do is push a guy who looks like this: Sure the guy is amazing in the ring, but how many "Chain Gang Soldiers" are going to get behind a fat bloke who kicks people really hard? The guy needs to shed some weight and add a bit of muscle tone before you can market him to a worldwide audience. Sad, but true. Everyone's entitled to their opinions, of course, but I adamantly disagree with this, and not just because it's Joe. The entire concept of "bigger is better" was really invented by Vince McMahon. I'm not trying to demonize him here, but it's true. And WCW and other companies just followed his lead. It was ECW who really first proved that smaller guys could also get over, even if they didn't do it on as large of a stage as WWE or WCW. Given the current trend of wrestlers dying LONG before they should (wthi steroids being a MAJOR factor), I'd like to see more companies willing to push guys that aren't necessarily muscle-bound behemoths. Someone taking the precedent that others would follow. For all the flack I give TNA, they're decision to make Joe a major part of their show is a very good decision--for the PR reasons I mentioned and because he's just damn good. (And incidentally, Mick Foley, Dusty Rhodes, Ric Flair and a number of other "non-muscular" guys were very successful, and companies did fine with them as top dogs for a time.)
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Joekishi
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,490
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Post by Joekishi on Nov 14, 2007 13:22:01 GMT -5
We're not talking Joe get bigger.
I'm saying Joe could stand to shed a few layers of fat, I haven't seen joe this big EVER. Like I know he's samoan but even back in 2004 he wasn't so jiggly.
Plus he doesn't even look mean or imposing like Umaga.
Frankie is a BETTER choice to push as a top guy because of his look and mic skills. Hell James Storm would be a great choice for TNA champ in the near future because the guy is extremely awesome.
Samoa Joe isn't even on my list of guys i'd push. He's over, but if TNA's trying to get an audience with some fat dude it won't work. Especially if he's not Dusty Rhodes kind of charismatic.
I say he's a good talent, but not somebody I want to push as my face of the company.
Somebody like Storm, Kazarian, and ESPECIALLY Tomko is somebody I'd make champ.
Tomko is somebody who I think TNA struck a goldmine with. He's somebody with a great look, character, and somebody people can just look at and go wow he's going to do some damage.
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Zane
Team Rocket
GREATEST POWERBOMB EVER!
Posts: 959
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Post by Zane on Nov 14, 2007 13:29:02 GMT -5
No, it is not a myth.
THAT BEING SAID.....900TH POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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hollywood
King Koopa
the bullet dodger
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Posts: 11,122
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Post by hollywood on Nov 14, 2007 16:11:13 GMT -5
We're not talking Joe get bigger. I'm saying Joe could stand to shed a few layers of fat, I haven't seen joe this big EVER. Like I know he's samoan but even back in 2004 he wasn't so jiggly. Plus he doesn't even look mean or imposing like Umaga. Frankie is a BETTER choice to push as a top guy because of his look and mic skills. Hell James Storm would be a great choice for TNA champ in the near future because the guy is extremely awesome. Samoa Joe isn't even on my list of guys i'd push. He's over, but if TNA's trying to get an audience with some fat dude it won't work. Especially if he's not Dusty Rhodes kind of charismatic. I say he's a good talent, but not somebody I want to push as my face of the company. Somebody like Storm, Kazarian, and ESPECIALLY Tomko is somebody I'd make champ. Tomko is somebody who I think TNA struck a goldmine with. He's somebody with a great look, character, and somebody people can just look at and go wow he's going to do some damage. As always, I couldn't disagree with you more.
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Post by poi zen rana on Nov 14, 2007 17:08:30 GMT -5
No, it is not a myth. THAT BEING SAID.....900TH POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! any reasons why?
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Celgress
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Superior One
Posts: 19,009
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Post by Celgress on Nov 14, 2007 17:27:05 GMT -5
A little off topic I know...Regarding Samoa Joe: As much as I love the guy, if TNA wants to get ahead, the last thing they should do is push a guy who looks like this: Sure the guy is amazing in the ring, but how many "Chain Gang Soldiers" are going to get behind a fat bloke who kicks people really hard? The guy needs to shed some weight and add a bit of muscle tone before you can market him to a worldwide audience. Sad, but true. The entire concept of "bigger is better" was really invented by Vince McMahon. I'm not trying to demonize him here, but it's true. And WCW and other companies just followed his lead. It was ECW who really first proved that smaller guys could also get over, even if they didn't do it on as large of a stage as WWE or WCW Indeed, and this is a big part of why wrestlers are dying in their 40s.
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Post by x on Nov 14, 2007 18:09:15 GMT -5
We're not talking Joe get bigger. I'm saying Joe could stand to shed a few layers of fat, I haven't seen joe this big EVER. Like I know he's samoan but even back in 2004 he wasn't so jiggly. Plus he doesn't even look mean or imposing like Umaga. Frankie is a BETTER choice to push as a top guy because of his look and mic skills. Hell James Storm would be a great choice for TNA champ in the near future because the guy is extremely awesome. Samoa Joe isn't even on my list of guys i'd push. He's over, but if TNA's trying to get an audience with some fat dude it won't work. Especially if he's not Dusty Rhodes kind of charismatic. I say he's a good talent, but not somebody I want to push as my face of the company. Somebody like Storm, Kazarian, and ESPECIALLY Tomko is somebody I'd make champ. Tomko is somebody who I think TNA struck a goldmine with. He's somebody with a great look, character, and somebody people can just look at and go wow he's going to do some damage. As always, I couldn't disagree with you more. I disagree too. But that's okay because we all have opinions. *Thumbs Up* This thread is starting to make my head hurt. I think I'll just go play Call of Duty 4.
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Zane
Team Rocket
GREATEST POWERBOMB EVER!
Posts: 959
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Post by Zane on Nov 14, 2007 18:27:08 GMT -5
No, it is not a myth. THAT BEING SAID.....900TH POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! any reasons why? Because lets look at former TNA champions both tag and world: Christian, Jeff Jarett, Angle, Team 3D, VKM, Rhino and a few others (not counting Raven because he was famous before yes going to WWE.
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Post by slasher911 on Nov 14, 2007 18:47:51 GMT -5
We're not talking Joe get bigger. I'm saying Joe could stand to shed a few layers of fat, I haven't seen joe this big EVER. Like I know he's samoan but even back in 2004 he wasn't so jiggly. Plus he doesn't even look mean or imposing like Umaga. Frankie is a BETTER choice to push as a top guy because of his look and mic skills. Hell James Storm would be a great choice for TNA champ in the near future because the guy is extremely awesome. Samoa Joe isn't even on my list of guys i'd push. He's over, but if TNA's trying to get an audience with some fat dude it won't work. Especially if he's not Dusty Rhodes kind of charismatic. I say he's a good talent, but not somebody I want to push as my face of the company. Somebody like Storm, Kazarian, and ESPECIALLY Tomko is somebody I'd make champ. Tomko is somebody who I think TNA struck a goldmine with. He's somebody with a great look, character, and somebody people can just look at and go wow he's going to do some damage. In the timeless words of Jules, "what's the n**** gonna' do? He's Samoan". And Joe is one of the most over guys in the company and one of the best merchandise pushers they've got. The fact that he's so big and yet so agile makes people love him. I'd put him on top over some generic ass jakked guy. And he's a lot better on the mic than people know. He just gives off this awesome "I WILL f*** you up" vibe.
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Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
Posts: 30,755
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Nov 14, 2007 18:52:05 GMT -5
We're not talking Joe get bigger. I'm saying Joe could stand to shed a few layers of fat, I haven't seen joe this big EVER. Like I know he's samoan but even back in 2004 he wasn't so jiggly. Plus he doesn't even look mean or imposing like Umaga. Frankie is a BETTER choice to push as a top guy because of his look and mic skills. Hell James Storm would be a great choice for TNA champ in the near future because the guy is extremely awesome. Samoa Joe isn't even on my list of guys i'd push. He's over, but if TNA's trying to get an audience with some fat dude it won't work. Especially if he's not Dusty Rhodes kind of charismatic. I say he's a good talent, but not somebody I want to push as my face of the company. Somebody like Storm, Kazarian, and ESPECIALLY Tomko is somebody I'd make champ. Tomko is somebody who I think TNA struck a goldmine with. He's somebody with a great look, character, and somebody people can just look at and go wow he's going to do some damage. Joe looks the same to me, and plus he's very much over with the crowd. If it works, go with it and from reading the Impact spoilers, it seems he's still in one of the top angles in the company. You may not like him (as I've noticed in the past with your posts), but the guy is popular, so while his physical features aren't making you a fan, he's well over enough to where he doesn't have to be a roid head.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 14, 2007 20:01:52 GMT -5
As long as the crowd gives the former WWE guys as good a reaction as they get i see no reason why they shouldn't be at the forefront. Bobby Roode, Kaz, Joe, and others were built up eventually to take on these guys and I like eventual/slow build rather than a stratuspheric push for these guys that nobody in the casual audience really cares about. you have to build recognition before you give guys like Robert Roode or the MCMG as big a push as they got. with WWE guys and Sting they have guys who already have a built in fanbase and demo. i see no problem with pushing WWE guys, I just see a problem with how they are pushed Exactly.There are reasons why WWE has had such an awful, awful time building really great new talent in recent years, or at least have taken promising talent and misfired with quite a few of them. One of those reasons is taking a new guy, a Carlito, a Santino, Deuce/Domino, MNM, etc. etc. etc., giving him/them a vingette or two, and then having him/them show up and immediately take the midcard or tag titles. It's trying to force credibility on a wrestler, and even if the guy has the talent to do something with it, fans will very often respond the way anyone would respond when something, even an incredibly tasty sandwich or something like that, is shoved down their throat: by gagging. They haven't done that with EVERY guy they've brought up (and, speaking as an outside observer of WWE, I am impressed with how they've managed to push some young talent a lot better of late compared to when I was watching) or whatever, but they have a tendency of getting people over via overkill. Now, I'm not about to call TNA's booking techniques genius or anything, but it makes a lot more sense to build up a Samoa Joe, a Kaz, or a James Storm. Let these guys get the work in, let the growing national audience get to know them better, THEN put them in the big time limelight. They're not far off, anyway, so that time really appears to be coming very, very soon. We have to deal with the fact that TNA cannot be run like companies such as ROH, CHIKARA, or PWG are. Granted, the reasons why those indies get more freedom are among the reasons why I prefer indy wrestling to TNA or WWE, but it doesn't change that, if you're going to watch a wrestling company with a national/international broadcasting deal, you're just going to have to accept that it won't be presented the same way as a company you may enjoy more on the indies. Hey, that's why I spend tons more money on ROH shows than I do on TNA ones.
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Post by toodarkmark on Nov 15, 2007 10:05:57 GMT -5
Because lets look at former TNA champions both tag and world: Christian, Jeff Jarett, Angle, Team 3D, VKM, Rhino and a few others (not counting Raven because he was famous before yes going to WWE. Jeff Jarret owns the company. Christian and Angle deserve to be world champions anywhere they wrestle. Rhino held the title for a day 3 years ago. And was made by ECW. Dudleyz were also made by ECW and have won titles everwhere theyve gone. VKM never held the tag titles. People are so brainwashed by the concept of there being one promotion, and have forgotten the idea that wrestlers can from other companies and be successful. WWE pushed Rhino for a minute too, and gave the Dudleyz tons of titles. After they were made by ECW. Was it ok then? Wrestling lost the concept of talented wrestlers being in one promotion and traveling to others. Its just sad that people dont understand that. Test, Rikishi, Dustin Rhodes dont deserve pushes and don t get them. Christian, Kurt Angle and for a time 3D do deserve pushes wherever they wrestle.
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hollywood
King Koopa
the bullet dodger
The Green Arrow has approved this post.
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Post by hollywood on Nov 15, 2007 10:17:57 GMT -5
Because lets look at former TNA champions both tag and world: Christian, Jeff Jarett, Angle, Team 3D, VKM, Rhino and a few others (not counting Raven because he was famous before yes going to WWE. Jeff Jarret owns the company. Christian and Angle deserve to be world champions anywhere they wrestle. Rhino held the title for a day 3 years ago. And was made by ECW. Dudleyz were also made by ECW and have won titles everwhere theyve gone. VKM never held the tag titles. People are so brainwashed by the concept of there being one promotion, and have forgotten the idea that wrestlers can from other companies and be successful. WWE pushed Rhino for a minute too, and gave the Dudleyz tons of titles. After they were made by ECW. Was it ok then? Wrestling lost the concept of talented wrestlers being in one promotion and traveling to others. Its just sad that people dont understand that. Test, Rikishi, Dustin Rhodes dont deserve pushes and don t get them. Christian, Kurt Angle and for a time 3D do deserve pushes wherever they wrestle. Just for the record, I think it's a bit of a stretch to call anyone in these forums "brainwashed." While everyone here has their disagreements, this is probably the most open-minded wrestling forum I know of.
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comahan
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,899
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Post by comahan on Nov 15, 2007 10:19:05 GMT -5
Jeff Jarret owns the company. Christian and Angle deserve to be world champions anywhere they wrestle. Rhino held the title for a day 3 years ago. And was made by ECW. Dudleyz were also made by ECW and have won titles everwhere theyve gone. VKM never held the tag titles. People are so brainwashed by the concept of there being one promotion, and have forgotten the idea that wrestlers can from other companies and be successful. WWE pushed Rhino for a minute too, and gave the Dudleyz tons of titles. After they were made by ECW. Was it ok then? Wrestling lost the concept of talented wrestlers being in one promotion and traveling to others. Its just sad that people dont understand that. Test, Rikishi, Dustin Rhodes dont deserve pushes and don t get them. Christian, Kurt Angle and for a time 3D do deserve pushes wherever they wrestle. Just for the record, I think it's a bit of a stretch to call anyone in these forums "brainwashed." While everyone here has their disagreements, this is probably the most open-minded wrestling forum I know of. Oh i completely agree with this. This is the only wrestling board that I can stand.
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Post by thestinger on Nov 15, 2007 10:39:42 GMT -5
Nobody who watches TNA thinks VKM or Rhino have ever received a large push. Team 3D has jobbed to every tag team in TNA. The four most dominant teams in TNA are still AMW, LAX, Styles & Daniels and the Naturals.
The board seems to have gotten better lately. Would I use the term "open minded?" That seems a bit of a stretch.
I've got flamed a bunch of times because someone (usually Hollywood) stated that he thinks WWE is better, and then I'll respond, "No way, I think TNA is better."
And then the next five pages are people responding to me like, "Are you looking to cause problems? Why are saying TNA is better?" And I'm like, "Uhm because he gave his opinion and now I'm responding with mine?"
Lately, since TNA has improved noticably, we folks who prefer it are no longer the leper colony we once were.
Still posters here are pretty damn dismissive of anyone who doesn't share the majority opinion. How many times a week do you see a guy write his feelings on a subject for a dozen, "If you feel that way, you're just a mark!" responses to pile up?
Maybe that's just the nature of the net though, and not anything specific to wrestling or this board.
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hollywood
King Koopa
the bullet dodger
The Green Arrow has approved this post.
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Post by hollywood on Nov 15, 2007 10:51:49 GMT -5
Nobody who watches TNA thinks VKM or Rhino have ever received a large push. Team 3D has jobbed to every tag team in TNA. The four most dominant teams in TNA are still AMW, LAX, Styles & Daniels and the Naturals. The board seems to have gotten better lately. Would I use the term "open minded?" That seems a bit of a stretch. I've got flamed a bunch of times because someone (usually Hollywood) stated that he thinks WWE is better, and then I'll respond, "No way, I think TNA is better." And then the next five pages are people responding to me like, "Are you looking to cause problems? Why are saying TNA is better?" And I'm like, "Uhm because he gave his opinion and now I'm responding with mine?" Lately, since TNA has improved noticably, we folks who prefer it are no longer the leper colony we once were. Still posters here are pretty damn dismissive of anyone who doesn't share the majority opinion. How many times a week do you see a guy write his feelings on a subject for a dozen, "If you feel that way, you're just a mark!" responses to pile up? Maybe that's just the nature of the net though, and not anything specific to wrestling or this board. Hey it's not perfect, but compared with other boards, this one's about as open-minded as it gets. Ever been to the ROH forums?
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Post by thestinger on Nov 15, 2007 11:12:31 GMT -5
Hey it's not perfect, but compared with other boards, this one's about as open-minded as it gets. Ever been to the ROH forums? No, but I've heard the stories. I couldn't even stomach TNA message boards with threads about how TNA is on the verge of overtaking WWE. Did you know MacMahon's about to file for bankruptcy? Everyone has a favorite company/indy promotion. But the guys who trash anything but their favorite fed get old really quick. To me that's the definition of a 'mark.' What I don't get at all here is the anger. Marks get angry when someone says their company isn't the best. I never get angry when someone tells me their favorite movie/sports team/political party is better than mine. How does that even work? "Oh you're a registered ------? You must be brainwashed!"
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hollywood
King Koopa
the bullet dodger
The Green Arrow has approved this post.
Posts: 11,122
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Post by hollywood on Nov 15, 2007 11:20:30 GMT -5
Hey it's not perfect, but compared with other boards, this one's about as open-minded as it gets. Ever been to the ROH forums? No, but I've heard the stories. I couldn't even stomach TNA message boards with threads about how TNA is on the verge of overtaking WWE. Did you know MacMahon's about to file for bankruptcy? Believe it or not, I have. I think Hogan even tried saying it during one of his regular Love Sponge interviews. Prety absurd. I think that's a textbook definition. I can't speak for everyone, but the only real emotion I feel anymore for mainstream wrestling (i.e. WWE and TNA) is disappointment. The only mainstream wrestling (and I use the word "mainstream" loosely here) I enjoyed in the last year or so was WSX--and they completely tanked, which only added to my disappointment as a sign that what I enjoy is apparantly doomed to fail. The last times I've tried watching WWE or TNA, I've just felt unentertained and disappointed. And I've reached the point where I refuse to sit through what I don't like in hopes of finding something will like later on.
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Post by thestinger on Nov 15, 2007 11:56:26 GMT -5
The last times I've tried watching WWE or TNA, I've just felt unentertained and disappointed. And I've reached the point where I refuse to sit through what I don't like in hopes of finding something will like later on. And I totally respect that. When WCW and ECW ceased to exist I felt the exact same way and stopped watching or caring about wrestling for five years. The part about you that I don't get is why you still comment on current TNA based on stuff other people write. If you don't like the company, you shouldn't waste your time reading other people's opinions about it, because your own is the only one that matters. In addition, you get stuff wrong all the time, like wrestler's current positions on the card which is understandable since you don't watch. Even you have to admit the company proves you wrong a lot. You spent all last month insisting Booker wouldn't be Sting's partner and who it was would be a disappointment. You were probably the one living person on the face of the planet who was surprised. Don't get me wrong, if I went to the WWE boards and insisted that every single match was going to suck, every show would be awful, every ppv was going to suck, and every new hire was a bad idea, I'd probably be wrong a lot of the time too. EDIT: And let me get this straight: You think TNA's booking is bad, but you liked WSX?! You complain about Mike Tenay and liked a company with that ring announcer? Wow.
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