hollywood
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Post by hollywood on Nov 15, 2007 11:59:53 GMT -5
The last times I've tried watching WWE or TNA, I've just felt unentertained and disappointed. And I've reached the point where I refuse to sit through what I don't like in hopes of finding something will like later on. And I totally respect that. When WCW and ECW ceased to exist I felt the exact same way and stopped watching or caring about wrestling for five years. The part about you that I don't get is why you still comment on current TNA based on stuff other people write. If you don't like the company, you shouldn't waste your time reading other people's opinions about it, because your own is the only one that matters. It's probably because I keep hoping that someday TNA will entertain me. Plus, I'm at work, I need to kill time when I'm not busy. For the record, I kept saying I'd believe it when I saw it. And every time I said I didn't expect him to come, I freely admitted I could be wrong. And the disappointment comment was more of a comment on wrestling overall, in my experience "mystery partners" are almost always disappointments wherever they occur. For the record again, I like to think I acknowledge when I'm wrong--like Booker and MCMG/3d (which BTW I was happy to be wrong about), but I don't think I'm wrong "a lot of the time." I'm not alone. There were at least a dozen others out there who liked it, too.
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Post by thestinger on Nov 15, 2007 12:06:54 GMT -5
Ok, I wasn't trying to insult you. But I think you're wrong on a lot of stuff.
Samoa Joe is in about 90% of impact main events and you insist he's a midcarder. There's matters of opinion and then there's being mistaken. But since you don't watch till the end that's a pretty valid excuse for being wrong.
I still value your opinion though.
I don't think TNA will ever entertain you though. Last week opened with an awesome match between Kaz and Christian. You changed the channel when Christian pinned Kaz, so you totally missed the results of the match being thrown out and a rematch being schedualed for Sunday's ppv.
Since you didn't order the ppv like I did, you wouldn't have seen the unbelievable match of the year candidate that ended cleanly. You'd already written off the storyline before Christian's hand was raised on Thursday. To me, (and this is just my opinion) that is not you giving it a chance.
Last Thursday night, I said "Let's see where it goes" and I think TNA fans were better off the result of last impact's match. I really do.
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hollywood
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Post by hollywood on Nov 15, 2007 12:28:20 GMT -5
Ok, I wasn't trying to insult you. But I think you're wrong on a lot of stuff. Samoa Joe is in about 90% of impact main events and you insist he's a midcarder. There's matters of opinion and then there's being mistaken. But since you don't watch till the end that's a pretty valid excuse for being wrong. I still value your opinion though. He was in a match with Robert Roode. Now maybe I'm not reading things right, but feuding with a cheap Rick Rude clone doesn't sound like a main eventer. Of course, things can change in wrestling in an instant, and Joe could be back on his way to main event status in short order. So, hey, fine, he's a main eventer again. I've been down that road a million times, though. WWE's done it to death. WCW did it to death. Hell, NWA and AWA probably did it to death, as well. Isn't TNA supposed to be different? The alternative? The future? I've said this before, but "The future of pro wrestling" currently bears a stark resemblance to late 1990's pro wrestling. Until Russo, Mantell, Jarrett and/or whoever else is no longer in charge of the company's creative direction, you're probably right. And I'll never order their PPVs, because I can't. Basic cable won't allow it. But I'll keep reading up on them so long as I have too much spare time at work.
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Post by Jared Has Been Enlightened :) on Nov 15, 2007 12:42:34 GMT -5
If TNA brings in Angle and immediately jobs him out to an unknown like Samoa Joe, that's not gonna make Joe look strong as much as it's gonna make Angle looked washed up. The fact is, Joe's one win over Angle did more for his career than everything he had done prior, combined. Beating a bunch of guys in ROH and a bunch of X-Division guys is nice. Beating the guy booked as the biggest star in the WWE for the past 6 years is special.
A fledgling company simply cannot afford to make a relative unknown (Joe) their franchise guy. It just wont work. Sure, us informed guys know Joe has talent, but for the uninformed, the non-IWC, they're gonna tune in and see a guy who looks like the Samoan version of fat Elvis as world champion and immediately dismiss TNA. WWE can push unknowns. WCW could as well. But they are/were established companies. TNA is not.
Angle and Booker are getting main event pushes in TNA for the same reasons they got main event pushes in the WWE - they're good. Damn good. In fact, I'd happily take either over the 2 WWE world champions, Randy bOreton and the absolutely horrid Batista, who's only pushed because he has really big muscles (what a genius concept).
As for Christian Cage - the WWE dropped the ball on him, big time. I'd say he was the most misused performer of the past decade. The fans wanted to see him pushed to the main event, instead he was moved to the B show and demoted to a talk show host. He (rightfully so) wanted out, and the WWE's loss became TNA's gain. And TNA has done what the WWE wouldn't do - turn Christian into a bonafide star.
I now see Carlito wants released. He's nowhere near as good as Christian, but he's another guy being misused in the WWE. I wouldn't be surprised to see TNA snatch him up and turn him into a star. Not because TNA is all about ex-WWE talent, but because TNA is smart enough to capitalize on the WWE's mistakes and lack of creativity.
Rhino is another guy misused by the WWE. He was booked as a star in ECW and his early time in the WWE (beating Jericho on PPV for example). Yet suddenly and inexplicably his push is gone and he's a midcarder? A year later, he's fired for throwing a flower pot. Arguably less talented Randy Orton throws a sissy fit, does over $75,000 damage to a hotel room, and 6 months later is WWE Champion. Rhino is fired over a flower pot.
Think about what a joke the WWE has turned into. Their ridiculous brand split makes me laugh. It's nothing more than watering down the roster and the product in order to milk more cash from their fanboys. They have almost 0 creativity or storylines. Their tag team division is a joke, as is the I.C. division. And they're deeply afraid to anything that breaks from the boring, predictable norm. It's like it's 1989 all over again. Of course 1989 was entertaining, because as a 6 year old my young mind was easily entertained and couldn't see through the boring, stale, predictable product. But I'm no longer a kid, and I see in the current product what the adults hated about the cartoony "Hulkamania" era.
As a 20+ year WWE fan, I'm ashamed of the company the way it's currently ran. I'm now a converted TNA fan. Better wrestling, better storylines, less predictable, more entertainment.
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Post by thestinger on Nov 15, 2007 12:46:33 GMT -5
I think the Kaz/Christian thing perfectly proves the need to be patient and let things play out. Kaz could have beaten Christian on last Thursday's impact, but then we wouldn't have had the ladder match at Genesis.
So last Thursday's match was no-contest, and three days later we got an amazing match. And by the way, nobody's saying Christian is a midcarder for wrestling Kaz. That's because Kaz and Roode are being elevated, not Joe and Christian being depushed.
Maybe it comes off differently when you're just reading results, but looking around it seems those of us who watch see two young guys getting pushes through wrestling main eventers. And Joe was in at least half of last month's impact main events while he was feuding with 'a cheap Rick Rude clone.'
Add that to the MCMG beating Team 3D and most of the right people are being pushed (but I agree with you 100% that Christopher Daniels should be one of the guys getting the push.)
TNA's good right now. Did you watch the LAX vs. Styles and Tomko main event from a few weeks ago? I can promise you an excellent title match with a clean finish.
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Post by Joekishi on Nov 15, 2007 12:55:31 GMT -5
If TNA brings in Angle and immediately jobs him out to an unknown like Samoa Joe, that's not gonna make Joe look strong as much as it's gonna make Angle looked washed up. The fact is, Joe's one win over Angle did more for his career than everything he had done prior, combined. Beating a bunch of guys in ROH and a bunch of X-Division guys is nice. Beating the guy booked as the biggest star in the WWE for the past 6 years is special. See I agree it should have been special, but with the booking afterwards, Joe became much more of an afterthought. I didn't really get behind him beating Christian...but he's always holding both Angle's and Christian's first losses in TNA. That really should mean something, but it doesn't. I think it's mostly the commentary. I don't get into the storylines or feel the effect of what happened because the commentary is so horrid. really Commentary is how things become special. hogan/andre without Gorilla/Ventura, royal rumble '92 without Gorilla/Bobby, Flair/Steamboat without JR... it's just not as epic when the commentary sucks.
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hollywood
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Post by hollywood on Nov 15, 2007 13:20:33 GMT -5
I think the Kaz/Christian thing perfectly proves the need to be patient and let things play out. Kaz could have beaten Christian on last Thursday's impact, but then we wouldn't have had the ladder match at Genesis. So last Thursday's match was no-contest, and three days later we got an amazing match. And by the way, nobody's saying Christian is a midcarder for wrestling Kaz. That's because Kaz and Roode are being elevated, not Joe and Christian being depushed. Maybe it comes off differently when you're just reading results, but looking around it seems those of us who watch see two young guys getting pushes through wrestling main eventers. And Joe was in at least half of last month's impact main events while he was feuding with 'a cheap Rick Rude clone.' Add that to the MCMG beating Team 3D and most of the right people are being pushed (but I agree with you 100% that Christopher Daniels should be one of the guys getting the push.) TNA's good right now. Did you watch the LAX vs. Styles and Tomko main event from a few weeks ago? I can promise you an excellent title match with a clean finish. Last Thursday, I went in with no preconceived ideas. I read no spoilers, as few comments as I could, and tried to watch with an open mind. I've said it before, but I wanted one good opening match and I would've stuck around. If Kaz/Christian was better suited for PPV, they should've just postponed it until the PPV, maybe done something to hype it or whatever. Instead, we got a schmozz for an opener, and basically a "If you wanna see who'd really win, you gotta pay us!" announcement. Yea, I know, it's a business, and building to the PPV is what it's all about. But it was so blatant and frustrating. I'm not saying they should give away PPV level matches for free every week, but something without the usual shenanigans would be nice. I decided, "Well, that's probably the sort of thing that's in store for the next hour and a half." So I found something else to occupy my time. This being a forum for opinions, I later voiced those frustrations.
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Post by toodarkmark on Nov 15, 2007 13:25:25 GMT -5
Jeff Jarret owns the company. Christian and Angle deserve to be world champions anywhere they wrestle. Rhino held the title for a day 3 years ago. And was made by ECW. Dudleyz were also made by ECW and have won titles everwhere theyve gone. VKM never held the tag titles. People are so brainwashed by the concept of there being one promotion, and have forgotten the idea that wrestlers can from other companies and be successful. WWE pushed Rhino for a minute too, and gave the Dudleyz tons of titles. After they were made by ECW. Was it ok then? Wrestling lost the concept of talented wrestlers being in one promotion and traveling to others. Its just sad that people dont understand that. Test, Rikishi, Dustin Rhodes dont deserve pushes and don t get them. Christian, Kurt Angle and for a time 3D do deserve pushes wherever they wrestle. Just for the record, I think it's a bit of a stretch to call anyone in these forums "brainwashed." While everyone here has their disagreements, this is probably the most open-minded wrestling forum I know of. I agree with you. Its by far the most closest to an intelligent discourse that I've found when it comes to pro wrestling. I didnt mean specifically you, I meant that people are brainwashed by the concept of there being only one promotion and that any talent leaving WWE is officially "washed up drug addict losers". Because they left their beloved WWE. I just think you, Hollywood, just dont like TNA and dont watch it. Which is a shame because in the last 4 weeks its really been getting better. Me and all my pessimistic hater friends have really been enjoying the hell out of it.
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hollywood
King Koopa
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Post by hollywood on Nov 15, 2007 13:27:39 GMT -5
Perhaps I should give TNA another chance. Albeit with an even more open mind than last week.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 15, 2007 13:54:36 GMT -5
Speaking as someone who enjoys TNA, can we PLEASE stop with this whole thing about who is "brainwashed" and who isn't, from both sides?
No, nobody is serving "kool-aid". Sapolsky isn't, McMahon isn't, Carter isn't, and neither is anyone else you can think of. There are always going to be people who enjoy something that you don't, so man up and accept that please.
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Post by toodarkmark on Nov 15, 2007 14:04:54 GMT -5
Speaking as someone who enjoys TNA, can we PLEASE stop with this whole thing about who is "brainwashed" and who isn't, from both sides? No, nobody is serving "kool-aid". Sapolsky isn't, McMahon isn't, Carter isn't, and neither is anyone else you can think of. There are always going to be people who enjoy something that you don't, so man up and accept that please. So you dont think there arent certain fans, WWE fans, who just understand the concept that WWE isnt the be all/end all of wrestling. There are NO TNA or ROH fans who think that all that exists as pro wrestling is TNA or ROH. They may think its the best or whatever, but they wouldnt say its the ONLY product. The WWE being Vince McMahon has, since 1983, set out to make WWE the ONLY product. There is NOTHING else out there. And they do it in a way where history is not acknowledged, unless the product is crushed, and does everything in his power to destroy all competition. Youve never met a WWE fan who is totally brainwashed and believes that the WWE is the ONLY product, and nothing else DESERVES to exist. Youve never seen the forums where WWE fans start saying that TNA should look into brand extension (a weird WWE reference), are about to be bought by the WWE, and how TNA sucks because WWE RULEZ! Its brainwashing. Going on 25 years of McMahon destroying all competition and having a large amount of fans who dont think anything SHOULD exist unless McMahon is putting it out. Do you deny this doesnt happen? TNA competes with WWE. ROH competes with TNA. CZW competes with Chikara. WWE does not and will not compete with anyone, they will use them, rip off their gimmicks and then try everything to destroy them. See AWA, WCW, ECW. This the brainwashing Im talking about.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 15, 2007 14:16:55 GMT -5
Speaking as someone who enjoys TNA, can we PLEASE stop with this whole thing about who is "brainwashed" and who isn't, from both sides? No, nobody is serving "kool-aid". Sapolsky isn't, McMahon isn't, Carter isn't, and neither is anyone else you can think of. There are always going to be people who enjoy something that you don't, so man up and accept that please. So you dont think there arent certain fans, WWE fans, who just understand the concept that WWE isnt the be all/end all of wrestling. There are NO TNA or ROH fans who think that all that exists as pro wrestling is TNA or ROH. They may think its the best or whatever, but they wouldnt say its the ONLY product. The WWE being Vince McMahon has, since 1983, set out to make WWE the ONLY product. There is NOTHING else out there. And they do it in a way where history is not acknowledged, unless the product is crushed, and does everything in his power to destroy all competition. Youve never met a WWE fan who is totally brainwashed and believes that the WWE is the ONLY product, and nothing else DESERVES to exist. Youve never seen the forums where WWE fans start saying that TNA should look into brand extension (a weird WWE reference), are about to be bought by the WWE, and how TNA sucks because WWE RULEZ! Its brainwashing. Going on 25 years of McMahon destroying all competition and having a large amount of fans who dont think anything SHOULD exist unless McMahon is putting it out. Do you deny this doesnt happen? TNA competes with WWE. ROH competes with TNA. CZW competes with Chikara. WWE does not and will not compete with anyone, they will use them, rip off their gimmicks and then try everything to destroy them. See AWA, WCW, ECW. This the brainwashing Im talking about. I'm not denying Vince's business practices or the behavior of some fans, because I don't like it when WWE fans act as if their favorite fed is the only game in town that counts. However, I also don't like it when TNA fans, ROH fans and fans of various indy promotions act as if they are superior fans for enjoying something different. I like TNA because I like it, not because of any sort of obligation, because I really don't have to give any wrestling company my time as a fan if I don't feel like it. You missed my point. I was making a plea for sanity from all sides. Everyone was targeted.
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Post by toodarkmark on Nov 15, 2007 15:04:53 GMT -5
So you dont think there arent certain fans, WWE fans, who just understand the concept that WWE isnt the be all/end all of wrestling. There are NO TNA or ROH fans who think that all that exists as pro wrestling is TNA or ROH. They may think its the best or whatever, but they wouldnt say its the ONLY product. The WWE being Vince McMahon has, since 1983, set out to make WWE the ONLY product. There is NOTHING else out there. And they do it in a way where history is not acknowledged, unless the product is crushed, and does everything in his power to destroy all competition. Youve never met a WWE fan who is totally brainwashed and believes that the WWE is the ONLY product, and nothing else DESERVES to exist. Youve never seen the forums where WWE fans start saying that TNA should look into brand extension (a weird WWE reference), are about to be bought by the WWE, and how TNA sucks because WWE RULEZ! Its brainwashing. Going on 25 years of McMahon destroying all competition and having a large amount of fans who dont think anything SHOULD exist unless McMahon is putting it out. Do you deny this doesnt happen? TNA competes with WWE. ROH competes with TNA. CZW competes with Chikara. WWE does not and will not compete with anyone, they will use them, rip off their gimmicks and then try everything to destroy them. See AWA, WCW, ECW. This the brainwashing Im talking about. I'm not denying Vince's business practices or the behavior of some fans, because I don't like it when WWE fans act as if their favorite fed is the only game in town that counts. However, I also don't like it when TNA fans, ROH fans and fans of various indy promotions act as if they are superior fans for enjoying something different. I like TNA because I like it, not because of any sort of obligation, because I really don't have to give any wrestling company my time as a fan if I don't feel like it. You missed my point. I was making a plea for sanity from all sides. Everyone was targeted. I agree to an extent. And also in the other thread about me saying things about WWE fans. But this is a forum, and usually forums are debates. Im not an advocate of personal attacks and such, but I dont think its a bad thing to battle to an extent. Its a philosophical difference between you and many posters. With too much sanity there just wouldnt be a purpose to writing anything. But like I said, youre right to an extent.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 15, 2007 15:20:10 GMT -5
I'm not denying Vince's business practices or the behavior of some fans, because I don't like it when WWE fans act as if their favorite fed is the only game in town that counts. However, I also don't like it when TNA fans, ROH fans and fans of various indy promotions act as if they are superior fans for enjoying something different. I like TNA because I like it, not because of any sort of obligation, because I really don't have to give any wrestling company my time as a fan if I don't feel like it. You missed my point. I was making a plea for sanity from all sides. Everyone was targeted. I agree to an extent. And also in the other thread about me saying things about WWE fans. But this is a forum, and usually forums are debates. Im not an advocate of personal attacks and such, but I dont think its a bad thing to battle to an extent. Its a philosophical difference between you and many posters. With too much sanity there just wouldnt be a purpose to writing anything. But like I said, youre right to an extent. Thank you... ...but now that I think about it, I should have used a better word than "sanity". Yes, forums are fun with debates and wackiness (hell, I have a number of locked threads that lost control bookmarked), but insanity, to me, is things like the silly fads involving Batista and basketballs, and Lex Luger screaming "I don't knoooooow". Not getting your panties in a bunch about people enjoying Wrestlecrap. But that's just me.
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Post by thestinger on Nov 15, 2007 15:31:58 GMT -5
Last Thursday, I went in with no preconceived ideas. I read no spoilers, as few comments as I could, and tried to watch with an open mind. I've said it before, but I wanted one good opening match and I would've stuck around. If Kaz/Christian was better suited for PPV, they should've just postponed it until the PPV, maybe done something to hype it or whatever. Instead, we got a schmozz for an opener, and basically a "If you wanna see who'd really win, you gotta pay us!" announcement. Yea, I know, it's a business, and building to the PPV is what it's all about. But it was so blatant and frustrating. I'm not saying they should give away PPV level matches for free every week, but something without the usual shenanigans would be nice. I decided, "Well, that's probably the sort of thing that's in store for the next hour and a half." So I found something else to occupy my time. This being a forum for opinions, I later voiced those frustrations. And I respect your views. But if you need a wrestling company with pretty much only clean finishes, TNA just isn't for you (neither are either of the two local indy feds I frequent for that matter.) If that's what you require, don't waste your time on TNA, ROH is where you belong. I also went into last Thursday without spoilers and hoping for a clean finish to the tournament. Like you, I was pissed off to see a tournament end in a screwjob. BUT when the result was thrown out, and we were told the real winner would be determined in three days, I decided to hold out hope. And I was rewarded. Kaz is actually better off beating Christian in a PPV than he would have been becoming the #1 contender on impact. Same exact story with the Motor City Machineguns. Team 3D kicked their asses on an impact and everyone said they were being 'buried.' But that was just to build suspense for the PPV match where they went over clean. The guns are FAR better off having won a ppv match, rather than coming out on top of a brawl on an impact.
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Joekishi
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Post by Joekishi on Nov 15, 2007 16:58:39 GMT -5
Speaking as someone who enjoys TNA, can we PLEASE stop with this whole thing about who is "brainwashed" and who isn't, from both sides? No, nobody is serving "kool-aid". Sapolsky isn't, McMahon isn't, Carter isn't, and neither is anyone else you can think of. There are always going to be people who enjoy something that you don't, so man up and accept that please. Its brainwashing. Going on 25 years of McMahon destroying all competition and having a large amount of fans who dont think anything SHOULD exist unless McMahon is putting it out. Do you deny this doesnt happen? This is the general anti-mcmahon wrestling fan. Not all fans are like this. I just don't think any wrestling promotion gives a product like WWE does. Just because I like it best doen't make me some brainwashed "OMG KOOL-AID DRINKER" It just means i like it the most.
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Post by Adam Pacman Khan (akkilla) on Nov 15, 2007 17:14:59 GMT -5
theory.. i think anti-wwe fans come from fans of previous wrestlers who either were "screwed" or "buried". Those fans remained loyal and decided to not be fans of vinny mac.
why i posted that theory....i may never know.
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Post by poi zen rana on Nov 15, 2007 18:31:38 GMT -5
theory.. i think anti-wwe fans come from fans of previous wrestlers who either were "screwed" or "buried". Those fans remained loyal and decided to not be fans of vinny mac. why i posted that theory....i may never know. a very good theory. that did bother me, although i don't consider myself anti-wwe i can see why this would turn people off.
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Post by Jared Has Been Enlightened :) on Nov 15, 2007 18:39:26 GMT -5
theory.. i think anti-wwe fans come from fans of previous wrestlers who either were "screwed" or "buried". Those fans remained loyal and decided to not be fans of vinny mac. why i posted that theory....i may never know. I'm not anti-WWE, in fact I loved the WWE/F from my childhood until about 2002. It's just the product is so painfully dull that it sickens me. One of the main storylines on RAW for the past 3 months has been Coach chasing around a leprechaun, I mean come on.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Nov 15, 2007 18:48:33 GMT -5
theory.. i think anti-wwe fans come from fans of previous wrestlers who either were "screwed" or "buried". Those fans remained loyal and decided to not be fans of vinny mac. why i posted that theory....i may never know. I'm not anti-WWE, in fact I loved the WWE/F from my childhood until about 2002. It's just the product is so painfully dull that it sickens me. One of the main storylines on RAW for the past 3 months has been Coach chasing around a leprechaun, I mean come on. Yes, 5 minutes a week kills the show. Totally. Anyway, I think WWE gets a lot of crap from jaded fans because they get put off the product, stop watching it, and think reading results is a fair enough perspective to bury a show. Fact is, ex-WWE guys get pushed because they're famous. Even being part of the undercard in WWE is massive exposure. Hardcore Holly is more famous than Abyss. Grandmaster Sexay is still more famous from his short stint in WWE than Ron Killings. Is it fair? Not really the point. It's fact. TNA is running a business, and having people that have recognition on the show helps the product.
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