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Post by slasher911 on Nov 15, 2007 18:55:42 GMT -5
Yeah, the "but they've got Leprechauns!!!1" WWE s*** is blown way out of proportion. People focus on that, and yet ignore the great Randy Orton/Shawn Michaels feud that's going on at the same time.
And TNA's gimmick characters aren't exactly better.
Uh, isn't that the point of business? You don't see other major corporations being all buddy-buddy with each other.
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Post by erisi236 on Nov 15, 2007 19:03:14 GMT -5
"Blowing stuff out of proportion" is pretty much the staple of all Wrestling related discussions.
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Post by toodarkmark on Nov 15, 2007 19:17:50 GMT -5
Cant argue with WWE fans. I was never loyal to any wrestlers really, I just detest Vince McMahon for ruining so many people's lives and putting them out of business. Guess I'm old enough to have an inkling of a memory of territories and actually more than 60 wrestlers being able to make a living out of doing it.
I watch Smackdown every week and am bored incredibly. Batista is a boring muscle guy, and his feud with a boring no talent monster in Great Khali just doesnt make good TV for me. And then they throw another monster at him in Mark Henry. Got another Monster? In between evil monsters to fight the musclebound hero with 3 moves, they put the legend in. Undertaker - Batista Part 8! Although JBL is the man.
Hornswaggle winning the Cruiserweight title? GREAT booking! A midget wins a title and buries the most skilled workers in the territory. And have Jamie Noble job to him a few times. Didnt Jamie Noble win the ROH title? And now he's jobbing to midgets. GREAT BOOKING! Now Hornswaggle is what, the third largest face in the promotion? He did a promo with D-X. Which is soooo much fun to watch two 40 year olds pretend to be teenagers. That just never gets old!
And boy those two greasers, what a relevant gimmick! Are they feuding with the two scotsman from the 1500's? Great gimmick! Or the two stereotypical robbing, theiving, black thugs. Oh wait, theyre gone right? And Mana, he's great! Oh wait, Umaga, im sorry, I got him confused with the guy they stole the gimmick from. Thats right. Another excitingggg monster. Im rambling.
I guess maybe Im too picky but WWE is the most boring, lame, insulting wrestling product and the same reason people enjoy news about Britney Spears, they enjoy the WWE. If you like it, I cant fault you. But dont come attacking other promotions for using talent that didnt want to work for your promotion anymore.
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Post by toodarkmark on Nov 15, 2007 19:24:58 GMT -5
Yeah, the "but they've got Leprechauns!!!1" WWE s*** is blown way out of proportion. People focus on that, and yet ignore the great Randy Orton/Shawn Michaels feud that's going on at the same time. And TNA's gimmick characters aren't exactly better. Uh, isn't that the point of business? You don't see other major corporations being all buddy-buddy with each other. Perfect example! Professional wrestling is NOT a corporation. It was made so by Vince McMahon. He ran everybody else out of business because he bastardized the sport out of greed. It BECAME a corporation because of his actions. I guess I cant blame him for being the Wal-Mart of Pro Wrestling. Destroying all the mom and pop stores, destroying communities all for the sake of the might dollar. It is capitalism. Funny how all the criticism of how Wal-Mart treats its employees too. But hey. They got cheap clothing! And theyre big, so they MUST be better. Thats the brainwashed thing I was talking about. McMahon changed wrestling into a corporation and he wants the monopoly. And instead of embracing change, diversity and choice, people are more than happy to just conform to the mass consumption's easiest choice. But the point is those same people come on forums and whine about TNA using washed up WWE guys, because there is no concept of there being more than one promotion that can use the same talent because theyve been conditioned to believe that WWE creates wrestlers out of thin air, and when theyre gone they should go home and work at Target or something. Even if they are talented and deserve a spot in other promtions.
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Post by toodarkmark on Nov 15, 2007 19:30:57 GMT -5
Or some like a Rikishi might be friends with the booker. Or VKM. Or Big Vito might be good friends with Kurt Angle. So guys who dont deserve spots get a shot because of networked connections. Now thats some real world stuff right there. Not fantasy tyrinical WWE fantasyland stuff.
As if anyone who criticises TNA wouldnt be asking their friends for a chance for a spot of they could, if placed in the same position.
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Post by Adam Pacman Khan (akkilla) on Nov 15, 2007 20:33:25 GMT -5
theory.. i think anti-wwe fans come from fans of previous wrestlers who either were "screwed" or "buried". Those fans remained loyal and decided to not be fans of vinny mac. why i posted that theory....i may never know. I'm not anti-WWE, in fact I loved the WWE/F from my childhood until about 2002. It's just the product is so painfully dull that it sickens me. One of the main storylines on RAW for the past 3 months has been Coach chasing around a leprechaun, I mean come on. Im not a anti-wwe guy either even though i was the bret hart fan of the century and they had thier little beefs with each other before 2005 but i was still a fan of Hardcore benoily and eddie g in 2004 while Bret was still being bitter of the wwe. As for today im down with Edge, MVP the hardy's randy O, CM punk and rey rey hell im even a lashley mark(well more of a lashley defender with all the hate he gets)....I also love Santino's brilliance. But im not a fan of triple H or the returned HBK....which means im not really into watching raw, smackdown is on friday nights which really annoys me because i try to not be at home on fridays. ECW...we dont even get ecw in canada, fridays at midnight...no thank you. Why I like TNA so much well to me its what its supposed to be. A highly entertaining alternative to wwe. So wheter or not wwe guys get a push over tna guys on impact doesnt matter to me as long as i enjoy the show, but the negativity is slightly annoying. Angle is not a wwe guy anymore Cage is not a wwe guy anymore Booker T signed with TNA....you know what that means? HES COMIN FO U N-WORD!!
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Post by slasher911 on Nov 15, 2007 21:02:11 GMT -5
Yeah, the "but they've got Leprechauns!!!1" WWE s*** is blown way out of proportion. People focus on that, and yet ignore the great Randy Orton/Shawn Michaels feud that's going on at the same time. And TNA's gimmick characters aren't exactly better. Uh, isn't that the point of business? You don't see other major corporations being all buddy-buddy with each other. Perfect example! Professional wrestling is NOT a corporation. It was made so by Vince McMahon. He ran everybody else out of business because he bastardized the sport out of greed. It BECAME a corporation because of his actions. I guess I cant blame him for being the Wal-Mart of Pro Wrestling. Destroying all the mom and pop stores, destroying communities all for the sake of the might dollar. It is capitalism. Funny how all the criticism of how Wal-Mart treats its employees too. But hey. They got cheap clothing! And theyre big, so they MUST be better. Thats the brainwashed thing I was talking about. McMahon changed wrestling into a corporation and he wants the monopoly. And instead of embracing change, diversity and choice, people are more than happy to just conform to the mass consumption's easiest choice. But the point is those same people come on forums and whine about TNA using washed up WWE guys, because there is no concept of there being more than one promotion that can use the same talent because theyve been conditioned to believe that WWE creates wrestlers out of thin air, and when theyre gone they should go home and work at Target or something. Even if they are talented and deserve a spot in other promtions. Buddy - when in the history of professional wrestling have promotions in the same area not fought for business? And I'm not sure where you're getting this 'wrestling is in a state of apocalypse' type s***. Have you SEEN the independents? There's more indy promotions out there now than ever before. Indy wrestling is growing all over the country. And why would Vince McMahon acknowledge them? Even most indies would rather not acknowledge each other if they can help it.
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Post by joeman on Nov 15, 2007 21:06:37 GMT -5
Honestly, the vast majority of WWE's marketing, creativity, and ethics are all based on the foundations of Capitalism. That said, it is the same thing in all feds. If you were in Vince's shoes, you might think the same he does.
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Post by I Graduated Warrior University on Nov 16, 2007 6:29:34 GMT -5
(And incidentally, Mick Foley, Dusty Rhodes, Ric Flair and a number of other "non-muscular" guys were very successful, and companies did fine with them as top dogs for a time.) Ric Flair was cut like he was made of marble, sure he wasn't a "behemoth" but was in great shape and had tremendous cardio. Dusty and Foley were able to become major stars in the business due to their incredible mic skills and everyman gimmick(s). -EDIT- "We're not talking Joe get bigger. I'm saying Joe could stand to shed a few layers of fat." Thanks to Joekishi for successfully making the point I was trying to make .
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Post by poi zen rana on Nov 16, 2007 9:11:53 GMT -5
And TNA's gimmick characters aren't exactly better. seriously? i was just thinking about this statement and for the wwe current we would have two guys who think it is the 50s an honest to god leprechaun a savage from samoa kane the monster undertaker a dead person boogeyman the boogeyman yang the asian cowboy morrison who thinks he is basicallly john morrison the only real gimmicky characters tna has off the top of my head are their four monsters.
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Post by slasher911 on Nov 16, 2007 10:35:26 GMT -5
And TNA's gimmick characters aren't exactly better. seriously? i was just thinking about this statement and for the wwe current we would have two guys who think it is the 50s an honest to god leprechaun a savage from samoa kane the monster undertaker a dead person boogeyman the boogeyman yang the asian cowboy morrison who thinks he is basicallly john morrison the only real gimmicky characters tna has off the top of my head are their four monsters. And out of all of those, only 2 (The Undertaker and The Boogeyman, and possibly Hornswoggle) have the potential to pull off the mind-numbingly stupid gimmick crap some of the TNA characters have. Seriously, how often has Yang the Asian cowboy (which is actually not that bad - if you wanna' play that one, how 'bout Senshi, the Puerto Rican Asian?) cut his way out from the bottom of the ring like Freddy f***ing Krueger? Not to mention the fact that they're not all grouped up on the same show - atleast the WWE can spread their stupid gimmick crap over 5 hours of TV a week instead of 2. Abyss - giant "monster" who is seemingly afraid of everything but the wind. Judas Mesias - Freddy Krueger lite, complete with s***ty production values. Rellick, Riddick, Redrum, whatever the hell - Boogeyman, but "serious". He even looks like him... Black Reign - Goldust if he was in a snuff film. Christopher Daniels - s***, I don't even know how to describe him anymore. Crazy make-up wearing preacher? Sonjay Dutt - Ghandi... Jay Lethal - Randy Savage. And that's not even digging deeper into it (you pick Morrison as a gimmick character, and yet you have Eric Young as a semi-retard and Robert Roode as a Rick Rude knock-off). I'm not saying TNA has worse gimmick characters, but it's irritating as hell when people bitch about the WWE having a Leprechaun (he's a midget, exactly what character did you expect them to give him?), but yet you have a guy shoving a f***ing rat in a bag and another guy ripped straight out of Stephen King.
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Post by hollywood on Nov 16, 2007 10:43:17 GMT -5
(And incidentally, Mick Foley, Dusty Rhodes, Ric Flair and a number of other "non-muscular" guys were very successful, and companies did fine with them as top dogs for a time.) Ric Flair was cut like he was made of marble, sure he wasn't a "behemoth" but was in great shape and had tremendous cardio. Dusty and Foley were able to become major stars in the business due to their incredible mic skills and everyman gimmick(s). -EDIT- "We're not talking Joe get bigger. I'm saying Joe could stand to shed a few layers of fat." Thanks to Joekishi for successfully making the point I was trying to make . Everyone's entitled to their opinions, I just disagree with this mentality on so many levels. In my view, this justification of "I'm not saying he needs to be 'roided up, just more muscular" is incredibly weak, and it can still lead to guys seeing a need for steroids. Look at Misawa in Japan. The man has a gut like a 50-year-old couch potato, but he's insanlely popular. I'm convinced that a guy like Joe could be every bit as popular as John Cena if pushed in the same capacity (TNA's lack of exposure notwithstanding). He could be equally as popular, and, in a time when pro wrestling is under heavy scrutiny for steroid abuse (and rightfully so), Joe could be a good alternative image for TNA.
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Post by poi zen rana on Nov 16, 2007 11:09:21 GMT -5
seriously? i was just thinking about this statement and for the wwe current we would have two guys who think it is the 50s an honest to god leprechaun a savage from samoa kane the monster undertaker a dead person boogeyman the boogeyman yang the asian cowboy morrison who thinks he is basicallly john morrison the only real gimmicky characters tna has off the top of my head are their four monsters. And out of all of those, only 2 (The Undertaker and The Boogeyman, and possibly Hornswoggle) have the potential to pull off the mind-numbingly stupid gimmick crap some of the TNA characters have. Seriously, how often has Yang the Asian cowboy (which is actually not that bad - if you wanna' play that one, how 'bout Senshi, the Puerto Rican Asian?) cut his way out from the bottom of the ring like Freddy f***ing Krueger? Not to mention the fact that they're not all grouped up on the same show - atleast the WWE can spread their stupid gimmick crap over 5 hours of TV a week instead of 2. Abyss - giant "monster" who is seemingly afraid of everything but the wind. Judas Mesias - Freddy Krueger lite, complete with s***ty production values. Rellick, Riddick, Redrum, whatever the hell - Boogeyman, but "serious". He even looks like him... Black Reign - Goldust if he was in a snuff film. Christopher Daniels - s***, I don't even know how to describe him anymore. Crazy make-up wearing preacher? Sonjay Dutt - Ghandi... Jay Lethal - Randy Savage. And that's not even digging deeper into it (you pick Morrison as a gimmick character, and yet you have Eric Young as a semi-retard and Robert Roode as a Rick Rude knock-off). I'm not saying TNA has worse gimmick characters, but it's irritating as hell when people bitch about the WWE having a Leprechaun (he's a midget, exactly what character did you expect them to give him?), but yet you have a guy shoving a f***ing rat in a bag and another guy ripped straight out of Stephen King. i was just saying i personally think the wwe gimmicks are a bit cheesier. i don't think senshi's gimmick or christopher daniels (who's gimmick i would actually describe as cult member/leader) are that cartoony. obviously we disagree on this issue. i don't think tna is perfect and they do have some weird gimmicks but i just happen to think that vampires, leprechauns, and dead men are a bit sillier than split personality, identity crisis, and a pacifist. we agree to disagree.
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Post by thestinger on Nov 16, 2007 11:32:00 GMT -5
Wow.
I never thought I'd live to see the day where someone tried to argue that WWE doesn't have the stupidest gimmicks in wrestling.
All the WWE fans I've known and read online admit WWE has the stupidest gimmicks and claim that's part of the appeal. They prefer the 'entertainment' part to 'sports entertainment.'
TNA has only one character who has a WWE style gimmick, and that's Black Reign. He's an entertainment black hole who needs to get the hell off my tv screen immediately.
I'm not sure 'Senshi' qualifies as a gimmick at all. It's a name. His 'character' is a man who has studied martial arts in Japan and his incorporated them into his wrestling style.
In real life -- he is a man who has studied martial arts in Japan and his incorporated them into his wrestling style.
That's not even a gimmick, much less a stupid one. His ethnicity has nothing to do with anything.
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Post by AriadosMan on Nov 16, 2007 11:36:34 GMT -5
Wow. I never thought I'd live to see the day where someone tried to argue that WWE doesn't have the stupidest gimmicks in wrestling. All the WWE fans I've known and read online admit WWE has the stupidest gimmicks and claim that's part of the appeal. They prefer the 'entertainment' part to 'sports entertainment.' TNA has only one character who has a WWE style gimmick, and that's Black Reign. He's an entertainment black hole who needs to get the hell off my tv screen immediately. I'm not sure 'Senshi' qualifies as a gimmick at all. It's a name. His 'character' is a man who has studied martial arts in Japan and his incorporated them into his wrestling style. In real life -- he is a man who has studied martial arts in Japan and his incorporated them into his wrestling style. That's not even a gimmick, much less a stupid one. His ethnicity has nothing to do with anything. You forgot Lethal who has an old-school WWE gimmick (albeit an entertaining one). Abyss reminds me of Masked Kane for some reason.
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Post by thestinger on Nov 16, 2007 11:42:20 GMT -5
Lethal is a tough one to crack.
At first I was tempted to say it wasn't a gimmick, but rather just an 'impression' he did to get over.
He would come, speak in his regular voice, and the fans would chant "one more time!" then he'd pick up the mic, throw out an "OH Yeah!" and go back to being himself.
In backstage skits he would talk as himself and then switch to his 'Macho voice' for a few seconds.
But the longer it has gone on, the less and less he's acted as 'himself.' And lately it seems to be a full blown gimmick where he's "Black Machismo" all the time.
I guess it' qualifies as a silly gimmick now. It just got there gradually.
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AriadosMan
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Post by AriadosMan on Nov 16, 2007 11:44:59 GMT -5
Lethal is a tough one to crack. At first I was tempted to say it wasn't a gimmick, but rather just an 'impression' he did to get over. He would come, speak in his regular voice, and the fans would chant "one more time!" then he'd pick up the mic, throw out an "OH Yeah!" and go back to being himself. In backstage skits he would talk as himself and then switch to his 'Macho voice' for a few seconds. But the longer it has gone on, the less and less he's acted as 'himself.' And lately it seems to be a full blown gimmick where he's "Black Machismo" all the time. I guess it' qualifies as a silly gimmick now. It just got there gradually. You were pretty much right, I just thought Abyss and Lethal were very reminiscent of WWE gimmicks. I can't think of anyone other than those two and Black Reign who have WWE like gimmicks (assuming a WWE gimmick is a somewhat cartoonish character).
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Post by poi zen rana on Nov 16, 2007 11:50:53 GMT -5
Wow. I never thought I'd live to see the day where someone tried to argue that WWE doesn't have the stupidest gimmicks in wrestling. All the WWE fans I've known and read online admit WWE has the stupidest gimmicks and claim that's part of the appeal. They prefer the 'entertainment' part to 'sports entertainment.' TNA has only one character who has a WWE style gimmick, and that's Black Reign. He's an entertainment black hole who needs to get the hell off my tv screen immediately. I'm not sure 'Senshi' qualifies as a gimmick at all. It's a name. His 'character' is a man who has studied martial arts in Japan and his incorporated them into his wrestling style. In real life -- he is a man who has studied martial arts in Japan and his incorporated them into his wrestling style. That's not even a gimmick, much less a stupid one. His ethnicity has nothing to do with anything. You forgot Lethal who has an old-school WWE gimmick (albeit an entertaining one). Abyss reminds me of Masked Kane for some reason. as far as the abyss thing goes i don't consider him to be a terribly cheesy gimmick. let's look at the tale of tape. kane- walking continuity error. was burned as a child by his undead brother resulting in his mask wearing for most of his career. pyromaniac. abyss- masked man who spent time in prison. no real explanation for mask other than this is wrestling. a sadistic wrestler who enjoys implementing weaponry. i can see people saying abyss reminds them of kane, but from a strictly character stand point i don't see it. the characters aren't really that similar.
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AriadosMan
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Post by AriadosMan on Nov 16, 2007 11:53:47 GMT -5
^Abyss didn't talk for a long time and basically had a manager lead him around for a long time. That's why he reminded me of Masked Kane. It's not the exact same character, just close enough to be remniscent.
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Post by thestinger on Nov 16, 2007 11:56:07 GMT -5
I know absolutely nothing about the character of Kane.
When I started watching TNA the critics were whining that Abyss' mask looked too much like Cactus Jack.
It seems to me the 'Kane' stuff started the moment TNA did that awful storyline earlier in the year which kept hinting at Abyss' 'dark past.'
The moment it was revealed that Abyss had a 'hidden secret past' people began screaming 'Kane ripoff! Kane ripoff! Kane ripoff!' And it's been going on since there.
For the record, I think for TNA to try to 'explain' Abyss was the stupidest thing they've ever done (until Black Reign.)
These aren't comic book characters. They don't need to have their 'origins' revealed. He's a sadistic bastard who behaves like an animal in the ring. Period.
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